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Topic ClosedWhat if Alexander the great invades China

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: What if Alexander the great invades China
    Posted: 27-Sep-2004 at 14:51
can anyone say "overwrought supply lines"?
"behold, vajik, khan of the magyars, scourge of the pannonian plain!"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2004 at 13:06

Alexander the great is said to have the best troops in the world, but recently I read sources that said if he went to China, he would have been defeated because his phalanx would have been shattered by the Chinese crossbow.  I want some opinions on this.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2004 at 13:51
let us revive this topic again.

During the time Alexander the Great, it was at the height of the Seven Kingdoms, and Qin was the most powerful amonst them.

I would assume Alexander upon invasion would encounter the nearest kingdom, which would be the Qin.

Thus Qin would be sandwiched.

Now the question is, would the six other kingdoms unite to defeat Alexander or would they watch and wait as the Qin and Alexander duke it out?

My guess is that they would follow the old adage, "from the other bank, watch the fire", and afterwords do as the fisherman who "claimed both stork and clam".

I think as Alexander the Greats troops were exhausted, and probably had not met such disciplined forces as the Qin, they would be defeated, but at tremendous cost to Qin themselves. Meaning that China would not be united as quickly as they wished, and it might settle into something like what we see in Europe, many smaller powers competing.

However with the "disintegration" of Alexanders Empire (will it disintergrate after one defeat?), Europe might also not be the same.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2004 at 14:04
Wasn't it six kingdoms, or am I forgetting my oriental history?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2004 at 14:18

Ehh... I'm thinking he's right, and it's seven.

But still, Alex couldn't conquer it all. There's no way. We duked it out with someone else and the height of the Han empire in a fight. Julius Caesar? Can't remember. Anyway, we all agreed that whoever attacked would lose horribly due to no knowledge of the terrain.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2004 at 14:23

 

The question here is not whether Alexander would win, its whether he would reach China, and the answer is no for anyone that actually take a look at the geographic layout of Kashgaria.

 

"Thus Qin would be sandwiched.

I think as Alexander the Greats troops were exhausted, and probably had not met such disciplined forces as the Qin, they would be defeated, but at tremendous cost to Qin themselves. Meaning that China would not be united as quickly as they wished, and it might settle into something like what we see in Europe, many smaller powers competing.

"

 

Sorry fastspawn, but what are your basis for such claims, Qin's power is more than enough to stop Alexander's advance for the simple reason that Alexander's troops that invade couldn't possibily have numbered more than his typical 30,000-50,000 in his campaigns, and these are his elite troops. to travel such a distance, only small size could be mantained, large armies of hundred thousand would require enourmous logistic support which Alexander is not able to maintain thus it would only be a hinderance to his campaign. And add to the fact that he has to worry about rebellion within his own empire, large troops are need to guard his empire. Besides the reserves he could get will only be Persian ones which is of low quality in comparison. Qin on the other hand is on their own ground, has their own numerous cities to defend, inexhuastable resource considering its their own territory, and superior ramped earth walls which Greek siege craft which could only be light ones since its a distant campaign would not be able to take down, all Qin has to do is wait till Alexander's troops starve and retreat, then attack and rout. A 50,000 Macedonian troop traveling across the Taklamakan desert would not pose any danger to Qin in the slightest way. It would merely be treated as another one of those petty raids made by the Hu and Qiang tribes that are in Qin's border. And the fact that Qin has over half a million standing army is moer than enough to stop a little army of 50,000. And contrast to popular bias, Macedonian troops are not superior in battle than the armies of central plain, in equipment, tactic, organization or discipline. And considering Qin's(as well as the other central plain states) vast resource due to superior agriculture and blast furnace metal production, its resource would not end. Conquering Qin is like conquering Rome during hannibal, even if Qin could be defeated in battles, in would not loose the war. Only Qin's resource is greater than Rome's, and Alexander has to travel through far tougher terrain than Hannibal making Alexander's chance of vicotry virtually zero.

All this is of course assuming Alexander would get to China at all which is extremely doubtful since the tarim basin is a desert with little oasis to support his army.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2004 at 15:30

Date Confusion. Deleted.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 15:19

Alexanders' troops would take tremendous losses in their route to China. They would have to indure the strains of mountains, steppes and the constant raids by tribesmen which alone could disintergrate the army.... So it is just not possible to attack China in my opinion.

About the crossbow affair, I think Alexander's troops would have been able to block them out with their shields and the tortoise formation. But I don't know much on the subject so I am not going to pretend.

 



Edited by Evildoer
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 16:34

Nope, Alexander's men would be far too weary of war to even advance into China.  Like warhead pointed out, invading Qin would be like invading the Roman Republic, that is, impossible to completely take the land.

To be honest, this far out of an invasion would likely be impossible for any army of this time.  I'd easily say that if Qin were to strike through Persia and attempt an invasion of Greece, they too would fail miserably. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 16:58
i always wodner why people open topics like "alexanders conquest of china??" btu no one opens a topic like "Alexanders conquest of India"....I mean the India episode has clearly shown thatt here's a limit of advance to alexander an his army, so there's no point of discussion, only if this is going to be another "Imperial Rome vs han China" topic...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 17:00

But hypothetically, if India and Persia were to magically dissapear with East Asia at the doorstep of Macendonia...

Hmmm, my bet is on the Qin or Han or whatever Chinese would have fought Alexander. Probably biased 'cause I'm Chinese tho'.

I read a translation of the Art of War where the guy (a white military dude, not sure what country, I think American) talks about if Alexander ever made his way into China, he would have faced a foe far stronger than any before. And crossbows. And Jet Li & Donnie Yen!

 

*I think if the Qin never 'united' China, Han would have just done it. Hypothetical situations are always very vague, the nature of it being that it never happened.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 18:39
I don't know, macedonian cavarly would have made a fair match vs Chinese crossbow if the two ever met
Grrr..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 18:52

Very, very, good post, War.

I just see one flaw, though. I think Alexander could keep around 75,000 men, and maybe a few thousand replacements from conquered Chinese cities. Although, I agree with the end point, Qin would win. But what damage would it suffer? Would it open it up to an early fall?

And, it's been proven many times, those Chinese Crossbowmen would dominate the Cavalry. They'd simply ambush them when they're going slow through the mountains, and eat them alive. Few, if any, chinese deaths, and a horde of Macedonians down.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 19:32

Originally posted by demon

I don't know, macedonian cavarly would have made a fair match vs Chinese crossbow if the two ever met

"What the barbarian fears most is the crossbow"

Barbarians referred to the horsemen that plagued China, quote may be from the Han dynasty(not really sure) but it was part of this essay about how effective crossbows were vs mounted opponents.

Hmmm, didn't China begin to use cavalry when Alexander was around? At the very least mounted archers.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 19:34
Oh, I just got owned so bady  
Grrr..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2004 at 02:51

Personally, I think that if Alexander would have attacked China he would have been badly defeated.  He could have caused considerable damage, but there's just no way to conquer that large of an empire(land and population) from that far away.  But i also don't think China could have conquered the Greek Empire, because the distance was just too great. 

I think a more interesting topic to contemplate is what would happen if the two armies met in a battle, not counting logistics or supply lines, which army would win?  I would have to go with China, because their army would have been much larger in number and much more technologically advanced, but i don't know too much about China. 

Also, another interesting thing to think about is whether the Persian Empire looked conquerable or not.  No one could have forseen Alexander conquering that empire either.  China was definitely different then Persia, but its an interesting comparison of two massive empires.

Edit: Hmm...the time/date thing must still be messed up, since i posted this after Kubrat's post.



Edited by MikeP
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 11:03

Thanks for the information, but I still want some comparison between Alexander's troop and the Chinese troops, what are their strengths, tactics imployed, weapons and organizations? I want to know what type of troops the Chinese used. I know that the Macedonian army isn't solely based on phalanx, they also had light infantries such as the peltasts which guarded the flanks and rear. It was used very effectively by Philip in the Battle of Chaeronea in which the light infantry lured the Athenian Hoplites away from the Thebans and Alexander's heavy cavalry smashed the thebans. Alexander also had archers and javelin throwers in the front line and his most successful weapon is the companion cavalry. So one can't solely judge the result based on the fact that crossbow can shatter the phalanx because phalanx isn't the only thing that Alexander used. Alexander also had archers and javelin throwers in the front line and his most successful weapon is the companion cavalry. So I want some opinion of a battle between equal number of troops between the two armies.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 13:53

From what I know...

Chinese armies at that time were well into professionalization, meaning the officers earned their ranks by merit. Money and blood ties still help, of course. Elite units were commonly formed, picking out the strongest, bravest, quickest, etc. men to form special forces. Elite shock troopers are one such use. Sun Tzu's 'Art of War' would have already been 200 years old and well circulated.

Cavalry was in use, chariots were phased out in the times of Sun Tzu, so I imagine there wouldn't be any in use.

The 'parthian shot' was in use practically since the first man with a bow sat on a horse.

Iron was in use, so was steel (but uncommon). I'm not too sure on the steel actually

I believe common equipment was a 'dagger-axe' polearm, composite bows, and crossbows.

They had also made many agricultural advancements. Add to that their massive cities (largest in the world) and size of the Empire, some believe in 200 B.C.E. Han had a population of 60 million. Of course those could not all be combatants, but a good chunk of that would be young, able bodied men.

Then again, Alexander was around the time of Qin, right? So those stats are probably much higher than Qin's



Edited by TMPikachu
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 19:39
I don't think crossbow alone would be enough to win, because Alexander's troops as already said, isn't entirely of phalanx, its his combined arms technique that made him successful. Also, with the exception of missiles I would say that Alexander the Great's troops have superior infantry since they are probably heavier armed and has more shock power.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 21:05
You all seem to forget the fact that there is more than one way to win a war...

For all we know, Alex might have allied with the Qin against the other Chinese kingdoms, and in return, given the Qin autonomy and sovereignity over the other Chinese in his empire.
Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
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