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Most Significant Event in History from 1000 to 1500 C.E.

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Poll Question: Most Important Event in History from 1000 to 1500 C.E.
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
3 [3.49%]
5 [5.81%]
10 [11.63%]
2 [2.33%]
3 [3.49%]
7 [8.14%]
22 [25.58%]
14 [16.28%]
9 [10.47%]
11 [12.79%]
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pekau View Drop Down
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Most Significant Event in History from 1000 to 1500 C.E.
    Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 22:31
Originally posted by Slick

Originally posted by pekau

Some events that I might have added are...
 
- The unification of German Empire.
- Discovery of Nuclear weapons, and the beginning of Cold War
- Britain's Industrial Revolution (Ex. Mass production technique)
- The coming of Jesus Christ, Muhammad, and other religious figures.
- Breakout of World War II
- Creation of Israel
- Alexander's Conquest
- Emerge of Roman Empire
- Barbarian invasion to Roman Empire
- Black Death over Europe
- Spanish Conquest over South, Middle and some of North America.
- Battle in the Plains of Abraham
- Japanese Empire's declaration of war against United States and her allies
- Invention of railways, and telegram
- The Great Scatter of Indo-European civilization in the flooded Black Sea.
- Invention of Compass and Gunpowder in China
- Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nation"
- French Revolution
- Conflicts in the Middle East (Modern time)
 
 
 
Slight Problem: Many, if not all, of these events happened way after or before AD 1,000-1,500. :/
 
By the way, I went against conformity and voted for the Mongol Conquests. The re-opening of trade routes stretching from Asia to Europe had a profound effect on the world, that outmatched even the discoveries of Columbus, in my opinion. Columbus only discovered America; there had been European voyages and colonization in other countries for years. Moreover, the re-opening of trade routes may have increased European curiosity and knowledge of the outside world, and thus indirectly spawned European voyages of exploration and colonization.
 
Um... ops.Embarrassed
     
   
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Frederick Roger View Drop Down
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  Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 06:17
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Frederick Roger

...
Solid evidences do not exist, nor could they. However there are several hints. 
 
... 
Writer Jean de Nry, in 1558, was in Brazil. In his book he reports talks with the oldest portuguese settlers, some of which state they were born there, after their fathers had travelled to Brasil since it was discovered 80 years ago. Now, I'm no math expert, but 1558-80=1478. 
There are severall other letters, writings, chronicles that features even more disrepancies in dates. Feel free to surf the web for it, but have in mind that a lot of it is rubbish.   
 
That may be possible. Actually it is known Portugal discoveries were a secret of state, and they started to explore the world a lot earlier than the Spaniards. However, the only thing that I wonder is why Portugal didn't pick for themselves the Americas in the case they knew it?
   
 
You mentioned a very interesting point, that of the secret of state. For such a small resourced country like Portugal it was vital to keep a great control of information. And because of that many information was never disclosed, to the point that Historians will never find out all that really took place. Supposed archeological evidences of portuguese presences are all quite disputable, like the Dighton Rock or the settlements in California. No written prof was ever found, and it might even be possible that it was never even provided and all communiations took place mouth-to-ear. Regarding your question on why didn't the portuguese keep america to themselves, the answer is "they did".
King Joo II's "Junta de Matemtica" (Body of Mathematicians) had already by then set the almost exact measures of the globe as we know them today, and knew of the great distance and "unknown" place between Europe and Asia - something that Columbus disputed, according to traditional historigraphy, claiming those calculation were exagerated and that the Earth was much smaller. 
The Spanish crown was itself beggining to invest in the pursuit of both a sea-route to India and access to African gold. That was competition that the portuguese simply could not afford. It is now more-or-less accepted in portuguese historiography the possibility (not the certainty) that Columbus was a tool for the portuguese (wether he knew it or not) to divert spanish attention to some other point of the globe. At that point, portuguese interests were safeguarded both in India and Africa but also in the Americas. Howcome? By the Treaty of Alcaovas of 1480, which settled that all areas south of Cape Bojador known and to be discovered belonged to the Portuguese. This treaty was negotiated by Prince Joo, future Joo II, the same who sent Columbus packing.
Yet Joo II, cunning has he might have been, could not forsee the future. The land Columbus first touched in the Americas lied in the Portuguese zone of influence. Some say that was the reason why he, on his return, first went t Lisbon to see the King of Portugal instead of going first to the Kings of Spain. Again, no one knows what went on in that meeting.
Another hard blow was the useful odd election of the Aragonese Rodrigo Borja as Pope Alexander VI, presumably paid for by King Fernando of Aragon. Upon notice of the discovery of Columbus, both Fernando and the Pope pushed for the realization of a new treaty with new partition of lands - the more renowed Treaty of Tordesillas, where the demarcation now took place vertically instead of horizontaly. This proposition was immediatly accepted with glee by Joo II - it kept the Spanish out of Africa and India for good (which, of course, was not the case - you can't trust a spanish to be totaly faithful to a compromize). And yet Joo II thought it best to have a safeguard and keep an entry into the "new" continentfor himself. So he insisted that the line be drawn farther to the west, as to include... nothing, in the eyes of the Spanish. But in the eyes of Joo II, it included the land of Brasil. And that was all he needed.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Frederick Roger

Your previous comparisson of the Portugal/Spain rivalry to the Space Race between USSR and USA is interesting. Just like USSR sent the first man into space, Spain is believed to have set the first foot on the Americas. But the USA (that is, the Portuguese) were the ones who got to the moon (that is, India) first. And pardon me by being rude, but saying the Spanish surpassed the Portuguese in discovering new lands in just blatant ignorance.
 
And Columbus is celebrated in Portugal. Why wouldn't he be? He did a good job for us in diverting Spanish attention away from the Indian Ocean. He has streets and schools named after him in Portugal. Heck, we even named one of our Indian capitals after him!
 
Plus, take I look at this:  http://www.colombo.bz/default.htm
Take it with a bit of salt, some facts are WAY overdeveloped and some connections sound forced. But unlike most things writen previously, this is a serious History project, that like most theories, should not be taken for granted, but accepted as one of many possibilities. 
 
Well, I don't believe Spain's achievements lacked importance, If compared with Portugal, and knowing Spain came second, it is outstanding Spain surpassed that nation in the number of countries which still keep Spanish culture. In fact, almost all the Americas were conquered and explored by Spain, and, as you know, the largest part of the New World "south of the border" is still in the hands of the countries colonized by Spain. In Asia, Phillipines were also conquered by Spain, no matter Portugal almost monopolized the region.
 
However, something that's really remarkable about Portugal is that such a small country lead the way. Portugal has only about 1 million people at the times of discovery; about 1/5 of Spain's or England's population! And still in those days it was a very small population if compared with the 200 millions people of China and a similar number in India, for example. However, with only that number of people they went to conquer the world, and they almost did.
 
Pinguin
 
Certainly, Spanish achievements have great importance. No one can take that away from them. Half of South America was bravely explored and conquered by the efforts of Conquistadors, and the marks of that colonization are much clearer that those of the portuguese in Asia, for instance.
 
The whole point of this conversation is the justice or lack of it of calling the Columbian voyages the greatest symbol of colonization and Imperialism, in the light that, in the end, is role was not so special. And despite this might seem as no more than a nationalistic pledge, I find it unfair that Columbus is considered and the whole process of Portuguese discoveries (the more-than-symbolic beggining of globalization), the only event in that time-span (1000 to 1500 C.E.) to have global porportions, is swiftly brushed aside by many in this thread, starting with its begginer, as having no importance.


Edited by Frederick Roger - 30-Jan-2007 at 06:19
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 07:11
Well, as far as I know, the guy that started it all was Henry the Navigator, who is recognized by that fact in Hispanic America, at least.
Columbus is the most famous explorer because he made public the most outstanding discovery for new for the Old World since ancient times, but he was at the ending part of the process and not at the beginning.
 
Again, it is like in the Space Race. The U.S. put Neil Armstrong and Edwin Aldrin on the Moon and many people forgot about U.S.S.R's Yuri Gagarin, and the mighty effort the Soviet Union made to put the first pioneers on Space. For a long time, we don't even have movies about Gagarin flight at all! and the U.S. media always tried to put Sheppard on top of him. A similar case is Francis Drake that is usually more known in the anglosaxon countries that the earlier Portuguese or Spanish explorers. Lot of times nationalistic tendencies distort history.
 
If we want to be fair enough, we should include Marco Polo as an early starter of the Age of Discovery, because his accounts on China awoke the desire to go there.
 
Now, one thing Portuguese missed with the treaty that divided the world in half it was the great American Empires (Incas, Mayans, Aztecs), and it also allowed Spain to colonize Phillipines (the most "Iberian" place in Asia).
 
Pinguin
 
 
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  Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 05:35
Originally posted by pinguin

Well, as far as I know, the guy that started it all was Henry the Navigator, who is recognized by that fact in Hispanic America, at least.
 
I see you're still hanging on to our former regime's nationalist history... LOL
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin

If we want to be fair enough, we should include Marco Polo as an early starter of the Age of Discovery, because his accounts on China awoke the desire to go there.
 
In the case of the Portuguese, not so much, it was moslty other traveller's work, Ibn Batuta. The Portuguese were among the few who knew his work by then.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

Now, one thing Portuguese missed with the treaty that divided the world in half it was the great American Empires (Incas, Mayans, Aztecs), and it also allowed Spain to colonize Phillipines (the most "Iberian" place in Asia).
 
Yes, that was a loss, those cultures might still be alive and well if we had gotten to them first. Oh well, can't win them all! Tongue


Edited by Frederick Roger - 31-Jan-2007 at 05:38
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 05:59
Originally posted by pinguin

A similar case is Francis Drake that is usually more known in the anglosaxon countries that the earlier Portuguese or Spanish explorers.
 
To be fair, I don't think anybody even suggests that Sir Francis Drake was much in the way of an explorer or a colonist.
 
Mostly he is celebrated for beating up on the Spaniards, whenever he took time off from playing bowls. Smile
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 23:16
I voted for Other. It is really hard to choose just one of those, considering for example that the Renaissance, had a prescedent in Al-Andalus, aka Islamic Spain, where science, reason, and medicine flourished, and were transported to the West via visiting scholars who marveled at the application of reason to thought, something the West had been unfamiliar following the decentralization of Western Europe. That happend a few centuries before, but also followed through up to the 1200-1300s. An amalgalm of various events and movements would be my choice. Nevertheless, out of all those I would go either with the Renaissance or the voyages of Colombus, both had immense consequences and impact on the shaping of world history.
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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 05:26
My vote for Mongolian conquest:

Destruction of most developed state of the world, Song China, and paralization of that civilization wich was the vanguard.

Destruction and paralization of the axis region of the old world, the Middle East.

Destruction and severe change of the life of Eastern Europe, specially Russia.



Good work mongols
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 06:16
Columbus' voyage, before there were but kingdoms, and afterwards a globe.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 07:58
Originally posted by gcle2003

 
To be fair, I don't think anybody even suggests that Sir Francis Drake was much in the way of an explorer or a colonist.
 
Mostly he is celebrated for beating up on the Spaniards, whenever he took time off from playing bowls. Smile
 
 
The problem is, not only beat up Spaniards. For us, Chileans, he is not an heroe at all but -please let me say it-, just a rat.
 
Sir Francis Drake attacked civilians towns in Chile, killed men, rape women, burn houses, robb the belongings of the only church in those towns, and humilliated our people. He is considered just a pirate in here as well.
 
After Drake, Chile become a militarized colonial post, that stopped most other incursions of pirates into the Pacific. The Spanish Empire also had a network of spies in London that send the alarm when long distance pirate expeditions were prepared to enter the Pacific.
 
Most Pirates stayed in the Caribbean afterwards.
 
 
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 11:15
Originally posted by Zagros

What a nice thread.

Originally posted by Spartakus

The Fall of the Byzantine Empire.


Ditto, for this reason there was an impetus to find a new trade route to India, hence the discovery of the Americas.


doesn't Fall of Byzantine Empire = Rise of the Seljuks?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 11:38
Originally posted by Constantine XI

Columbus' voyage, before there were but kingdoms, and afterwards a globe.
 
Agree!
 
Columbus marked the beginning of globalization.
 
Pinguin
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 12:30
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by gcle2003

 
To be fair, I don't think anybody even suggests that Sir Francis Drake was much in the way of an explorer or a colonist.
 
Mostly he is celebrated for beating up on the Spaniards, whenever he took time off from playing bowls. Smile
 
 
The problem is, not only beat up Spaniards. For us, Chileans, he is not an heroe at all but -please let me say it-, just a rat.
 
Sir Francis Drake attacked civilians towns in Chile, killed men, rape women, burn houses, robb the belongings of the only church in those towns, and humilliated our people. He is considered just a pirate in here as well.
 
After Drake, Chile become a militarized colonial post, that stopped most other incursions of pirates into the Pacific. The Spanish Empire also had a network of spies in London that send the alarm when long distance pirate expeditions were prepared to enter the Pacific.
 
Most Pirates stayed in the Caribbean afterwards.
 
Pinguin
 
True, but I though it was more because it was closer to places you could sell the spoils, and also there were a lot more islands to hide in. What you say could also have been a factor, though.
 
PS: How do you feel about Lord Cochrane?
 
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  Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 13:28
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Constantine XI

Columbus' voyage, before there were but kingdoms, and afterwards a globe.
 
Agree!
 
Columbus marked the beginning of globalization.
 
Pinguin
 
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 11:11
It's damn near impossible to attempt such a judgement- the events are just so far apart and different that they cannot be compaired. One of the most universal is Gutenberg's printing press, as not only did it influence the widespread distribution of literature, but it also enabled the masses to have access to political material and enabled ultimatley a development of a middle class which would heavily influence later governments and politics. Basically, it enabled widespread education to be implemented into most societies
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 11:46
Originally posted by Ikki

My vote for Mongolian conquest:Destruction of most developed state of the world, Song China, and paralization of that civilization wich was the vanguard.Destruction and paralization of the axis region of the old world, the Middle East.Destruction and severe change of the life of Eastern Europe, specially Russia.Good work mongols


Oh... Another strong contender! I think you swayed me to your choice, Ikki!

Xi: Seljuqs were already a powerhouse WELL before the fall of Byzantium. It was Ottomans who destroyed Byzantium - you should know this!

Edited by Zagros - 06-Feb-2007 at 11:47
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 17:01
The Renaissance, without doubt.
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 11:22
Alexander the great's conquests must surely have a place- ultimatley his conquests brought Greek culture, technology and civilization into central asia, as well as introducing eastern culture to Greece. Although most of this progress was created by his sucessor Diodachi states, it's still worth a mention. I don't really think that the rennaissance is a real contender, because, as this goes back to 1000 BC, some of the later developments would not have been possible without the earlier developments. If we want to find a few of the most important events, we'll just have to look at the earlier developments.
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  Quote Lepidodendron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 12:33
Maybe I am being somewhat boring, but I don't think you can really appreciate the significance of an historical event without knowing what the alternative course of history would have been if it hadn't happened. Or by what other means could you objectively measure the significance of an historical event?
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 12:45
Originally posted by Frederick Roger

Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Constantine XI

Columbus' voyage, before there were but kingdoms, and afterwards a globe.
 
Agree!
 
Columbus marked the beginning of globalization.
 
Pinguin
 
That's it, I quit. You can take the bicycle.


I take it.Wink

Did the Portugese knew before 1492 about the Americas? It is quiet possible. They were fishing cod in the North (Newfoundland), potentialy the 'volta' brought them to nowadays Brazilian and Argentinian shores, and luck may well have brought them to the Carabeans.
The question is: did they care about it? No. Because it was not commercially interesting. The Carabeans and Brazil must have been full of weird native totally underdeveloped, so was Canada. And taking them as slaves was not even interesting as the African supplies were more than sufficient. So even if they knew about the new world (which I doubt for S. America) they couldn't care less.

Colombus brought two novelties: he was precisely gold thirsty and most likely a bit mad, so getting inland was ok for him and he brought the Spaniards who are agrarian warriors and landlords.
On the contrary, the Portugeses were interested by trade 1) per se and 2) as a way to finance new discoveries to finally arrive in India. Just consider the way they "colonized" the Indian ocean. Did they try to invade any land in India or in Africa? No they were just interested in ports of trades and in taxing the trade of the other merchants.
On the other hand the Spaniards did invade the lands and ultimately found gold and silver.

That said I think the most important event was the Mongol conquests as they've triggered many other very important events:
Fall of Songs, definite roll back of the Muslims in Central Asia, enormous consequences in India, broke Eastern Europe and Russia, are involved in the black plague........
The discoverie had a tremendous impact but latter.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 22:33
I guess, you are seen too much TV LOL
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