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Onggirat(Hongirat) Clan
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Posts: 103 		  Quote blitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Onggirat(Hongirat) Clan
    Posted: 23-Oct-2005 at 07:32

Originally posted by Akskl

The so-called Ongirrat, Ungirrat, Qongirrat etc.  are Kazakh Qongyrat - and they have no relation to the modern Khalkha-Mongols. They were Turkic speaking tribe in 12-13th centuries, and they are Turkic-speaking tribe within modern Kazakhs today as well. 
The same is valid for Kereits (or Kereis), Naimans, Jalairs, Onguts (now Uak), and of course, Kypchaks.
(Read Paul Ratchnevski "Genghis Khan - His Life and Legacy", for example, or Rene Grousset "Empire of the Steppes").
They are all main parts of the Kazakh Middle Horde (or Orta Zhuz). See www.elim.kz 

 

And mongols of the 13th century were kazakhs.  And the kazakhs of today are mongols.  Mongols are not mongols and kazakhs are not kazakhs.    How do you like it?

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Posts: 132 		  Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2005 at 12:56
The so called "Mongols" of Genghis Khan were all Turkic speaking tribes and direct ancestors of the modern Kazakhs of Middle Horde (or Orta Zhuz). Modern Khalkha-Mongols (as well as Kalmucks and Buryats) have almost nothing in common with the Genghis Khan and his "Mongols".
We know about the Turkic-speaking state of Mogulistan, and Turkic-speaking Empire of Great Moghuls.  The Orta Zhuz of modern Kazakhs is probably the remnants of the Mogulistan state. The Middle Zhuz consists of Uak (former Ongut), Kypchak, Kerei, Naiman, Arghyn,  and Qongyrat. Jalairs are part of the Kazakh Great Horde (Uly Zhuz).
Modern Kazakhs DO have ancestors. Kazakhs live on the same territory (of much smaller size though), they have the same language, traditional culture, cousine  (i.e. kumyss, which is always mentioned by the all 13th century's travellers), same DNA, they have thousands and thousands direct descendants of Genghis Khan and his royal sons, tumb of Zhoshy (or Juchi) stays intact on the Kazakhstan's territory and it has only Kazakh tribes tamgas imprints inside of it.  Why Genghis Khan's tumb is always closed "under conservation" by the Mongolian authorities?  What secrets they are trying to keep in?  The secret is that Genghis Khan was a Turkic speaking ruler. Otherwise how could he communicate with his suzereign Toghrul -  Khan  of Kereits, who were Turkic-speaking tribe?  Genghis Khan as a vassal have to speak only Turkic language when he was meeting with Toghrul Khan.
I have hundreds proofs of that Genghis Khan and his "Mongols" were Turkic speaking guys. If you can read Russian, please read these (or at least you can use English language links and references):

http://www.kub.kz/viewtopic2.php?topic=215&forum=10&am p;am p;start=720&status=&asc=
http://bb.ct.kz/index.php?showtopic=10532
http://www.kyrgyz.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=23&st=0



         

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Posts: 193 		  Quote HistoryGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2005 at 13:27
Pretty nifty....
هیچ مردی تا به حال به شما درباره خدا گفته.
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Posts: 132 		  Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2005 at 14:21
Please open on www.amazon.com the following book, click several times on it, and read pages 2 and 3

Genghis Khan: His Life and Legacy (Paperback)
by Paul Ratchnevsky


and then please open

http://www.elim.kz/z_orta.php


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Posts: 103 		  Quote blitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 10:27

Originally posted by Akskl

The so called "Mongols" of Genghis Khan were all Turkic speaking tribes and direct ancestors of the modern Kazakhs of Middle Horde (or Orta Zhuz). Modern Khalkha-Mongols (as well as Kalmucks and Buryats) have almost nothing in common with the Genghis Khan and his "Mongols".

I think, you are not satisfied with the history of Kazakhstan because kazakhs played no role in world history.  So you and your friend (Kazakhstan's president) are inventing an exciting history about your country?                     

I hope, you become one day the history-minister of Kazakhstan.

Originally posted by Akskl


We know about the Turkic-speaking state of Mogulistan, and Turkic-speaking Empire of Great Moghuls.  The Orta Zhuz of modern Kazakhs is probably the remnants of the Mogulistan state. The Middle Zhuz consists of Uak (former Ongut), Kypchak, Kerei, Naiman, Arghyn,  and Qongyrat. Jalairs are part of the Kazakh Great Horde (Uly Zhuz).

In Yuan the the most people of this dynasty spoke Chinese.  Were the mongols chinese?

I know someone who is of german origin and has a german family name but speaks only russian. There are many people like him in Russia. Were the germans russian?

In Mongolia there are a few turkic people of Khoton tribe and they speak only west mongolian dialect. Were they originally mongols? 

In Mongolia there are also people of Shira-Kirgiz tribe and they speak all mongolian.  Were the kyrgyz people originally mongols?  

In Mongolia there are also people of Asud clan.  They were part of Alans, who came in Mongolia during Mongke Khan's reign and later under Khublai Khan fought with mongols against chinese of Song dynasty. Were Alans mongolian just because Asud people in Mongolia speak only mongolian?      

Originally posted by Akskl

I have hundreds proofs of that Genghis Khan and his "Mongols" were Turkic speaking guys. 

Genghis became Japanese, Chinese and Russian(-> A.T Fomenko).  And now a kazakh guy?

(( ( ( ( (    ) ) ))))

 

PS: 

1) See Guyuk khan' seal(Genghis' grandson) on the letter sent to Pope of Rome. Now this letter is in Vatican. This was written clearly on mongolian language. Why should use the great turk guy Guyuk mongolian language instead of kazakh-turkic?  

2)  Why are there many primary sources from Yuan Dynasty written on mongolian language? 

3) Do you know so called Genghis' stone? The script was written on mongolian(short after the arrival of Genghis' army from Qwarezm).

4) Are you OK? Inferiority complex?  



Edited by blitz
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Posts: 132 		  Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 18:39

Then open the Genghis Khan's tomb for archeologists!

Your Khalkha-Mongol propaganda (without Russian restrictions and censorship) brainwashed everybody.  And westerners do not care about the difference between Turkic nomad tribes and Khalkha Mongols - they used to call all of them as "Mongols". First they write about so-called "Turco-Mongols", who were all speaking Turkic language, and then, "for brevity", keep call them just "Mongols". The "Mongols" who were (and are) Turkic speakers!   
Khalkha-Mongols "historians" also try to  usurp heritage of all other ancient Turkic empires like Hunnu, Huns, Toba, Sha'tuo,  etc. 



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Posts: 132 		  Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 18:51

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0631189491/ref=sib_dp_pt/002 -0953619-1846451#reader-page


Click on the book 7 times and read Chapter 1, please.

 

 



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Posts: 108 		  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 00:19

It seems most of posts under the thread aren't on the topic. I just want to get some informations about the descendants of the Khongirats in the modern Turkic groups.

I agree with akskl with that Kazakhstan have been one of the more direct successors of Chagatai Khanate or Mongulstan in their history compared to modern Mongolia, as well as Golden Horde and other Mongol Khanate in ancient Turkistan. but as for Hsiung-nu, Sian-pei, Turuk and other ancient Khanates in Mongolia. I totally disagree with your statement. I have a statement about it in another post, I paste it here.

 

People couldn't view Hsiung-nu empire, Turuk Khanate, Uighur Khanate, Kirgiz Khanate as the foreign dynatsy of Mongolia, all of those Khanates had so many Mongolica tribes while some Turkic tribe probably got the ruling place at that time. On the other hand, Sian-pei Khanate, Ruran Khanate, Khitan empire, and Mongol empire, also had many Turkic tribes among them. It's just about that Mongolica or Turkic tribes had been the royal family in their Khanates, however, from Hsiung-nu, Sain-pei, Ruran, Turuk, Uighur, Kirgiz, Khitan, to Mongol, there're no too much difference among those Khanates at all.  so, you can view all of them as Mongolian(not Mongolica) empires/dynasty in the history of Mongolia.

 

 
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Posts: 108 		  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 00:29

Back to my topic about the Khongirats. I'm glad that there're the Qongirats among the Kazakhs, Tatars, and other Turkic groups today, and it's why I hope to get some informations about them, but, on the other hand, the Khongirats didn't disappear in Mongolia but were absorbed by other Mongol tribes, as well as Nayman, Keriet, Ongut and other ancient tribes in the Mongolian steppes. I can't understant why you said that the modern Halha Mongols have nothing to do with the Khongirats while I have told you that the Kongirats were ever one of 5 Southern Halha clans. Did you read my post?

 
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Posts: 108 		  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 01:56

Originally posted by cliveersknell

My wife, who is a Kharachin , told me that the big
portion of the Onggirats were absorbed into the Horqin tribe whose banner is in the Tongliao region of Inner Mongolia. Empress Xiaoguang, grandmother of Kangxi was Horqin. The Horqin are direct descendants of Qinggis brother Khasar.

r's
Clive

Manchu emperor Kangsi's Mongol grandmother was from the Gorlos clan of the Horchin Mongols. Gorlos was the name of a Khongirat chiefman, his people adopted his name as their tribename later, so the Gorlos should be a branch of the ancient Khongirat tribe, which became one of the Horchin tribes in the end. Horchin's royal family was Chinggis Khaan's younger brother Hasar and his descendants. Kangsi's grandmother, I think, should be Hasar's descendant.

Bumbutai, known as Queen Xiao_zhuang by Chinese, the queen of Hong Tayji, the first Qing emperor, and emperor Kangsi's grandmother.  

 

 
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Posts: 103 		  Quote blitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 06:55

Akskl,

your claim that mongols of the 13th century were turkic speaking people is very naiv and ridiculous.

Genghis' Stone is in Hermitage Museum of St.Petersburg. The script is on mongolian language.  Guyuk Khan's letter and the seal sent to Pope was on mongolian language(http://www.silk-road.com/artl/carrub.shtml). Il Khan Argun's letter sent to Philip the Fair was on mongolian language. Emperors of Yuan Dynasty used officially mongolian and chinese script(there are too many documents). 

How can a normal man claim that mongols were turkic speaking?

   

 

 



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Posts: 0 		  Quote kuralas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 13:37

All niruns - kiyat (kiyat-kuralas), dulat (dughlat), suan, iysun (iysut), barlas, katagan, mangyt, barin&ets are turkic tribes.

Most  darlekins - kongirat, uryanhay, bayauyt, argyns (union darlekin tribes from argunokon) also from turkic tribes.

 

 

 



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Posts: 108 		  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2005 at 03:57
Originally posted by kuralas

All niruns - kiyat (kiyat-kuralas), dulat (dughlat), suan, iysun (iysut), barlas, katagan, mangyt, barin&ets are turkic tribes.

Most  darlekins - kongirat, uryanhay, bayauyt, argyns (union darlekin tribes from argunokon) also from turkic tribes.

Lol, then who were the Mongols? Chinggis Khaan only?

 
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Posts: 103 		  Quote blitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2005 at 06:29
Originally posted by kuralas

All niruns - kiyat (kiyat-kuralas), dulat (dughlat), suan, iysun (iysut), barlas, katagan, mangyt, barin&ets are turkic tribes.

Most  darlekins - kongirat, uryanhay, bayauyt, argyns (union darlekin tribes from argunokon) also from turkic tribes.

The names of these clans are mongolian. Read secret History of Mongols, the oldest primary source about Genghis Khan.



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Posts: 0 		  Quote kuralas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2005 at 15:01

Today's Mongols consists of such tribes: Halha, Durved, Bayad, Hoton, Myangat, Zahchin, Torguud, Hotogoid, Darhad, Eeld, Barga, Dariganga, Tsahar, Harchin, Buriad, Sunit.
No niruns, no darlekins.

But todays Turkic nations have all niruns and darlekins + naimans, kereits, onguts, tatars, jalairs and etc.
The Mongol means a word on Turkic "the Eternal country" (mäŋgi el).

In general as believes that ancestors of present Mongols have won the world on a pony - horse. It likely a fairy tale for not Turkic people. Height, weight and speed of horses very important during war.

----------------------------------

Borte Chino means Bori Ashina.



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Posts: 103 		  Quote blitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 07:55
Originally posted by kuralas

Today's Mongols consists of such tribes: Halha, Durved, Bayad, Hoton, Myangat, Zahchin, Torguud, Hotogoid, Darhad, Eeld, Barga, Dariganga, Tsahar, Harchin, Buriad, Sunit.
No niruns, no darlekins.

But todays Turkic nations have all niruns and darlekins + naimans, kereits, onguts, tatars, jalairs and etc.
The Mongol means a word on Turkic "the Eternal country" (mŋgi el).

I think, you are wrong. The tribes above you mentioned consist of all possible clans.  An example: Among Durved there are many people who consider themselves as taichut.    

In general as believes that ancestors of present Mongols have won the world on a pony - horse. It likely a fairy tale for not Turkic people. Height, weight and speed of horses very important during war

Read the travel notes of Carpini and Rubruk(1245-1253). There was mentioned about mongolian horses near Wolga River. And read what John Spalato about mongol horses wrote during the Subedei's campaign in Hungary(this is btw primary source).

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Posts: 103 		  Quote blitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 07:56

Originally posted by kuralas

Borte Chino means Bori Ashina

He was of course a kazakh-turkic guy.

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Posts: 0 		  Quote kuralas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 12:49

blitz wrote

I think, you are wrong. The tribes above you mentioned consist of all possible clans. An example: Among Durved there are many people who consider themselves as taichut.

Taichiuts have been destroyed.

Russia always helped you country, you have received more than 50 billion Soviet roubles within the Soviet period. You till now debt more than 30 billion.

And that we have received: more than 900 nuclear explosions, imitation starvation, emigration, russification, a virgin soil, a genocide. Because to us always revenged for the past.

Now we the independent country. Want or do not want we shall return  own history. Then we shall look "who are wrong".
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Posts: 58 		  Quote Anbalan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 12:36

Originally posted by Akskl

The so called "Mongols" of Genghis Khan were all Turkic speaking tribes and direct ancestors of the modern Kazakhs of Middle Horde (or Orta Zhuz). 
         

I think it is true. I have wondered why Nogai were Turkic, if they came as "mongols"? There are many words in Ossetic language adopted at the time of Golden Horde, but they are of Turkic origin, but there are almost none Mongolian.

Does anybody know which Turkic language has "kundursu" as type of yogurt?

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Posts: 103 		  Quote blitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 13:41

Originally posted by kuralas

Taichiuts have been destroyed.

Not at all.  Among Kalmyks too there are people of taichut.  among mongols there are also merkits.

 

Russia always helped you country, you have received more than 50 billion Soviet roubles within the Soviet period. You till now debt more than 30 billion.  And that we have received: more than 900 nuclear explosions, imitation starvation, emigration, russification, a virgin soil, a genocide. Because to us always revenged for the past.

Now we the independent country. Want or do not want we shall return  own history. Then we shall look "who are wrong".

At first, I'm not mongol.  And sorry about your country.  At last I don't think that soviets tested atom boms in your country because you kazakhs are mongols.  
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