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Your Favourite Muslim Intellects

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    Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 13:58

I am so happy so many of you are sharing who is ur most fav islam intellect...

But i just wondering how can this topic is leading to ethnic perspective.. come on guys...

anyhow.. thanks for the mosque picture.. it's awesome..

*whtever the ethnic of the intellect is... he is Muslim.. tht's the only matter"

 

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 03:10

Ibn Rushd, Ibn Al Hytham,  Ibn Al Nafees, Ibn Hazm and many more

for the moment i think Ibn Rushd is my favourite

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  Quote Super Goat (^_^) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 18:05
wow u guys sure are good at gettin off topic..

mine would have to be ibn batuta, not sure if hes considered an "intellect", but i bet reading his books are more entertaining than The cannon
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 12:18

Originally posted by Shompis

But you neglect the very fact that Ibn Sina, at the time was persecuated because of his believes in particular attributed to Aristoteles. And this was a time when several different iranian dynasties were emerging and resisting the khalifates.... Why were they resisting? It wasnt religion, it was politics, it was power etc. There was no unification back then, as much as there is none today. And there is a reason why there are several different shiite sects, all of them emerged from political reasons. Originally it wasnt a clash of ideologies but they are today as the other indifferences(political most likely) are long solved or dissapeared.

I wasn't pushing for Ibn Sina's origin to be a turk. I just searched and couldn't find except he was a turk and posted the link. If you think he is of a Persian origin, then sure he might. very possible too. Post the link you found for us to share please.

Now, do not confuse that every clash at that time has to be for religious reasons. Nationalism as you are describing today was only born recently and imported from outside the Middle East. As I mentioned to you, if Safavids were hardcore Persian and Iranian nationalist, I am truly suprised their prosecution of Zoroastrians. Wasn't it the ancient religion of Perisa? They could have pushed for Zoroastrianism instead as Mongols pushed for Buddism converting every mosque in Iran to a buddhist temple before their conversion to Islam. It is not difficult to do for them. Therefore, religion was a factor not nationalism of ancient Persia.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 12:06
But you neglect the very fact that Ibn Sina, at the time was persecuated because of his believes in particular attributed to Aristoteles. And this was a time when several different iranian dynasties were emerging and resisting the khalifates.... Why were they resisting? It wasnt religion, it was politics, it was power etc. There was no unification back then, as much as there is none today. And there is a reason why there are several different shiite sects, all of them emerged from political reasons. Originally it wasnt a clash of ideologies but they are today as the other indifferences(political most likely) are long solved or dissapeared.
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 11:58

Originally posted by Shompis

. I agree with you that what Shah Ismail did was wrong even though he mass converted people without any real resistance.

I wasn't concerned about if it is wrong or right, I asked you if he was a nationalist Iranian, why did he oppress the religion of Ancient Perisa? for the sake of argument of course.

Originally posted by Shompis

And a unification under one religion will never happen, sorry but just look at the state of the muslim countries today, you really think they care about each other? It is allways about self interest, the man is a selfish being and an opportunist.   

I don't think anyone in this thread said we want to unite with you or about unification of religion. We are talking about the past. What united people that time and Ibn Sina time was not only ethnicities, but religion. In fact, religion was more for sure.



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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 11:54

Originally posted by Shompis

You are talking about Shah Ismail. Iran was allready converted when Shah Abbas took the crown. I agree with you that what Shah Ismail did was wrong even though he mass converted people without any real resistance.

As far as I know, Shah Abbas I (great Abbas) is the one declaring Shiesm as the religion of his state and forcing it on all of his people.

http://isfahan.anglia.ac.uk/glossary/abbas/abbas1.html

Shah Abbas I was the first of the Safavid Shahs to establish Persia as a homogeneous state, enforcing, often brutally, adherence to Shi'ism, and imposing Farsi as a unifying language throughout the land.

But anyhow, I guess the point I talked about earlier and which Day I also re-enforced is clear. What brought Iranians togather was what you called "the trick" of religion. So religion is what unified them, not race or nationalism. What nationalism first of all? Nationalism is based on ethnic or common values? If Shah Abbas or Shah Islamil had enough common values to form their unified Iranian state, why do they need religion to be unified too? the Answer is the one you said :

Originally posted by Shompis

  Declaring them the sunnites and us the shiites was just a way to unite the people, a cheap trick

In fact at that time, your citizenship is your religion. If you are a Shiah Kurd, you are expected to help the Safavid and from them, if you are a Sunni Kurd, you are expected to help the Ottomans and be of them.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 11:54
And that is why iranian is greater to me than being a persian. That is why an azeri turk is equal to a persian in my eyes. That is why an azeri turk is the supreme leader in Iran even in such a corrupt regime, of course a non shia would never get a high position in Iran in the current state.

I am not really a nationalist per se. And I am definitely not religious either. And a unification under one religion will never happen, sorry but just look at the state of the muslim countries today, you really think they care about each other? It is allways about self interest, the man is a selfish being and an opportunist.   
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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 11:47

"Acting like an european is an insult I presume? Is that what you are implying. As said, for us the nation has allways came first, that is why we were successfull no matter what religion, what king we had. This is why we were united even though we also have had turkic kings. These same turkic kings like Shah Abbas had the same ideology like many iranians have today, nation comes first, religion come second.

And if someone asks me what I am, I say a citizen of earth, then iranian, persian and last muslim."

Unification of some groops has one equal point, that is mostly one language, one religion and one country. IF you begin with ethnics you wont be succesfull.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 11:39
You are talking about Shah Ismail. Iran was allready converted when Shah Abbas took the crown. I agree with you that what Shah Ismail did was wrong even though he mass converted people without any real resistance.

And the wars between Safavid Persia and The Ottoman Empire was political, self interests that is. Declaring them the sunnites and us the shiites was just a way to unite the people, a cheap trick. A trick that the ottomans themselfs succeeded with btw as a great amount of sunni kurds changed sides in favor of the ottomans in those wars.


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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 11:34

Originally posted by Shompis

. These same turkic kings like Shah Abbas had the same ideology like many iranians have today, nation comes first, religion come second.

And if someone asks me what I am, I say a citizen of earth, then iranian, persian and last muslim.

You can descibe yourself as you wish. However, your analysis that nation comes first is not always true. You used Shah Abbas I example here as an Irani nationalist. If he was as you Iranian, Persian and last Muslim, why did he pushed so hard for all the people living in his domain to accept Shiism Islam? Why can't he just accept all Iranians in his kingdom regardless of their religion? If he was a nationalistic Iranian, why did he wages all tose wars he called Jihad against the Ottomans and clearly he negotiated his deals based on religious criterias? His criteria was always they the Sunni Ottomans, we the Shieh Safavid.  I don't think a natioanlist will launch a war and call it Jihad and conquest of our religion.

By the way, your Iranian nationalistic Abbas Shah example is definitely a bad example. Didn't he prosecute and force 4 million Zoroastrians to accept Shiesm? Ironically if he was only a hardcore Iranian Persian nationalist, he would have at least left the Zoroastrians, the religion of ancient Persia! 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 11:20
Originally posted by DayI

Originally posted by Shompis

Originally posted by DayI

Originally posted by Infidel

The persian Ibn Sina (Avicena) or the iberian Ibn Rushd (Averroes) get my vote. Great minds. But there are others that I just can't remember now.

I sincerely hope they thrive again nowadays. The muslim world needs it.

 The ethnic origin of some intellectuells like ibn-i Sina and some others who lived in that times are unknown, because in Islamic country's they didnt look at the ethnicy but as believers and non-believers (Muslim - gayri-muslim).


Ibn Sina is not unknown as there are detailed information about him, his father and mother. Nice try though. Btw Ibn Sina only lived in countries where the rulers were persian speakers. Speaks volumes doesnt it? And Ibn Sina was persecuated by zealot muslims because of his believes..

And you are incredible wrong when you say what only mattered was what religion you belonged to and not ethnicty. This might be true for you turks, and pakistanis recently. But it has never been true for us on the iranian platue. For us nation comes first, religion is allways secondary in the big picture. That is why we are still united when needed in a country so diverse as Iran.
We, Turks for example if you ask us "what are you" we first say "im muslim" then if you ask further we say "im Turk". Ottoman tradition i guess...

shompis dont act like a european...



Acting like an european is an insult I presume? Is that what you are implying. As said, for us the nation has allways came first, that is why we were successfull no matter what religion, what king we had. This is why we were united even though we also have had turkic kings. These same turkic kings like Shah Abbas had the same ideology like many iranians have today, nation comes first, religion come second.

And if someone asks me what I am, I say a citizen of earth, then iranian, persian and last muslim.


Edited by Shompis
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 11:14
Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Al Khwarezm, probably a Turk from Khwarezm. He was the founder of Al Gabir, the modern term that westerners learn as "Algebra".

Ali Kuscu, a Turkish scientist serving Timur. Considered as the father of the science of astronomy.

Ibn Sina was a Turk. He was the father of modern medicine. His books were studied in European universities for centuries...



Khwarezmi was born in what is today Iraq, near Baghdad. There were no tukic people in Khwarazm when he was born, he was born over 1100 years ago. The original khwarazmians seat was still the khwarizm province. His nick name was also Al-majusi wich means the magus, this has been recorded by al-tabari.


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 11:12
Originally posted by ok ge

Originally posted by Shompis

And you are incredible wrong when you say what only mattered was what religion you belonged to and not ethnicty. This might be true for you turks, and pakistanis recently. But it has never been true for us on the iranian platue. For us nation comes first, religion is allways secondary in the big picture. That is why we are still united when needed in a country so diverse as Iran.

So, from the highlight above of your statement, are you saying you guys are united meaning what? united as the nation of Iran or the ethnicities of persians?

Regarding Ibn Sina, ee was born in 370/980 in Afshana, his mother's home, near Bukhara. His native language was Persian. His father, an official of the Samanid administration, had him very carefully educated at Bukhara. So, most probably Ibn Sina is a central asian (Turkic probably) who is educated in Persian. Seljuks spoke persians and raised as persians, but they are not ethnically persians.



He escaped from the turks when the samanids were destroyed. He was of iranic stock. he was a citizen of the samanid empire until it collapsed, then he had to escape south to what is Iran today. You also neglected to tell us where his father was from... Khurasan province, the capital Balkh.

Sorry I missed your first sentence. United as a nation, where religion and ethnicity is equal.... We do have an incredible racist regime today, where a selected few only are treated well.. but this is not a part of the mentality of the people I can assure you.


Edited by Shompis
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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 11:10
Originally posted by Shompis

Originally posted by DayI

Originally posted by Infidel

The persian Ibn Sina (Avicena) or the iberian Ibn Rushd (Averroes) get my vote. Great minds. But there are others that I just can't remember now.

I sincerely hope they thrive again nowadays. The muslim world needs it.

 The ethnic origin of some intellectuells like ibn-i Sina and some others who lived in that times are unknown, because in Islamic country's they didnt look at the ethnicy but as believers and non-believers (Muslim - gayri-muslim).


Ibn Sina is not unknown as there are detailed information about him, his father and mother. Nice try though. Btw Ibn Sina only lived in countries where the rulers were persian speakers. Speaks volumes doesnt it? And Ibn Sina was persecuated by zealot muslims because of his believes..

And you are incredible wrong when you say what only mattered was what religion you belonged to and not ethnicty. This might be true for you turks, and pakistanis recently. But it has never been true for us on the iranian platue. For us nation comes first, religion is allways secondary in the big picture. That is why we are still united when needed in a country so diverse as Iran.
We, Turks for example if you ask us "what are you" we first say "im muslim" then if you ask further we say "im Turk". Ottoman tradition i guess...

shompis dont act like a european...

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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 06:54

A short essay and few photos of Sinan's works.

http://www.turkishculture.org/architecture/Sinan.html

 

An interior view of Selimiye Mosque:

[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 02:52

And you are incredible wrong when you say what only mattered was what religion you belonged to and not ethnicty. This might be true for you turks, and pakistanis recently. But it has never been true for us on the iranian platue. For us nation comes first, religion is allways secondary in the big picture.

yes yes who dont know this?Infact nationalism comes from Iran not france.

 

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 17:42

Al Khwarezm, probably a Turk from Khwarezm. He was the founder of Al Gabir, the modern term that westerners learn as "Algebra".

Ali Kuscu, a Turkish scientist serving Timur. Considered as the father of the science of astronomy.

Ibn Sina was a Turk. He was the father of modern medicine. His books were studied in European universities for centuries...

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 17:15

Originally posted by Shompis

And you are incredible wrong when you say what only mattered was what religion you belonged to and not ethnicty. This might be true for you turks, and pakistanis recently. But it has never been true for us on the iranian platue. For us nation comes first, religion is allways secondary in the big picture. That is why we are still united when needed in a country so diverse as Iran.

So, from the highlight above of your statement, are you saying you guys are united meaning what? united as the nation of Iran or the ethnicities of persians?

Regarding Ibn Sina, ee was born in 370/980 in Afshana, his mother's home, near Bukhara. His native language was Persian. His father, an official of the Samanid administration, had him very carefully educated at Bukhara. So, most probably Ibn Sina is a central asian (Turkic probably) who is educated in Persian. Seljuks spoke persians and raised as persians, but they are not ethnically persians.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 16:56
Originally posted by DayI

Originally posted by Infidel

The persian Ibn Sina (Avicena) or the iberian Ibn Rushd (Averroes) get my vote. Great minds. But there are others that I just can't remember now.

I sincerely hope they thrive again nowadays. The muslim world needs it.

 The ethnic origin of some intellectuells like ibn-i Sina and some others who lived in that times are unknown, because in Islamic country's they didnt look at the ethnicy but as believers and non-believers (Muslim - gayri-muslim).


Ibn Sina is not unknown as there are detailed information about him, his father and mother. Nice try though. Btw Ibn Sina only lived in countries where the rulers were persian speakers. Speaks volumes doesnt it? And Ibn Sina was persecuated by zealot muslims because of his believes..

And you are incredible wrong when you say what only mattered was what religion you belonged to and not ethnicty. This might be true for you turks, and pakistanis recently. But it has never been true for us on the iranian platue. For us nation comes first, religion is allways secondary in the big picture. That is why we are still united when needed in a country so diverse as Iran.


Edited by Shompis
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