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Zolqarnain; Cyrus the Great in Quran

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  Quote Aryan Khadem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Zolqarnain; Cyrus the Great in Quran
    Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 01:37
In the Qur'an, there are 16 verses in the Kahf Sureh (verses 83-98) that talk about Zolqarnain and some aspects of his personality. Recently, Molana Abolkalam Azad, India's Minister of Culture, in his Urdu-language exegesis titled "Tarjoman al-Qur'an", claimed that Zolqarnain referred to Cyrus the Great, the Achaemenian king (taking this stand apparently on the authority of Seyyed Ahmad Khan, the famous exegete of the Qur'an). He mentioned many reasons for his assertion, including the following:
  1. Cyrus is mentioned in the Old Testament and the Book of Ezra as a God-revering person, a description that matched the qualities of Zolqarnain in the Qur'an.

  2. The deeds of the Achaemenian king were in accordance to the deeds described in the Qur'an, as he fought with the Lydians in Asia Minor and then with the Sakas in the east (unlike Alexander the Great).

  3. Zolqarnain in the Qur'an is said to have built a barrier of copper and iron after fighting the Ya'jooj and Ma'jooj people. Cyrus built a similar barrier in the Daryal Pass, the remains of which are still existing.

In the Qur'an, the name of Zolqarnain, together with descriptions of some aspects of his personality and an accounting of a number of his deeds, are mentioned three times in 15 verses of the Kahf Sureh. A translation of these verses is as follows:

    "And they will ask you about Zolqarnain. Tell them, 'I will tell you now one of his tales.' We gave him power upon earth and gave him authority over everything. And he followed upon his authority, until he reached the lands west of the sun and found out the sun set there in a muddy spring. Nearby, he found a tribe. We told him: Zolqarnain, you have the authority. Either you will punish them or you will be generous to them. He said: Whoever ascribes company to God will be punished soon and I will return him to his God and punish him severely. But whoever accepts the faith and does good things, I will reward well and make things easy for him. He followed up on his words, and he reached the lands on the east of the sun and saw people who were not shielded before it. Thus, we know from his affairs. He followed on his work and he reached between two huge wall-like mountains and found people who understood no language. [Through a translator] they told Zolqarnain, 'The Ya'jooj and Ma'jooj people bring great devastation to this land. If you want us to pay you tribute, build a wall between them and us.' He said: The power that God has blessed me with is better than your tributes, but help me [with manpower] to build a wall between you and them.' When they laid the foundation, he said: Bring me pieces of iron [and put them in a heap], until he filled the gap between the two mountains, making them level. He said: Blow [in furnaces of fire],'[and they did] until [iron] became [hot] like fire. Then he told them: Bring me melt zinc, until [a wall was built and the Ya'jooj and Ma'jooj] could not penetrate it. He said: This is a blessing from my God and when His promised day arrives, He will scatter it and right is my God's promise." [Kahf Sureh/18/verses 83-98].

According to most exegetes of the Qur'an, a cause of revelation exists for these 16 verses of the Kahf Sureh. From the Qur'an itself, it seems that these verses were revealed because of a question asked from the Prophet by his contemporaries. The Qur'an says: "They will ask you about Zolqarnain. Tell them, 'I will tell you now a tale about him.'"

In the translation of Tabari's History, Bal'ami said that Ibn-e-Abbas had said that when the infidels of Mecca could not contradict the Prophet, they asked for help from the Jews of Khaybar and sent Abu-Djahl to them: "All the Jews came together and brought with them the Torah and extracted three problems from therein." The first question was about the spirit (of course, not the human spirit, but the Holy Ghost, Gabriel). The next question was about the Seven Sleepers, and the third about Zolqarnain: "They told his story, they told how he went from the west to the east and the story of the Ya'jooj and Ma'jooj. And they said that this was what was told in the Torah, and if Muhammad could answer about what was in the Torah, then we know that he is a prophet."

Considering the cause of revelation of these verses, it could be seen that whoever the story was about, should have been mentioned in the Torah. We shall return to this point. The exegetes of the Qur'an, as well as historians had made many assertions about the identity of Zolqarnain, including the following:

  1. Zolqarnain was Alexander (Tabari's Exegesis, a remark attributed to Abu-Rayhan, Madjmal-al-Tawarikh va-al-Qessas, Sur-Abadi's Exegesis, and others).

  2. Abu-Rayhan mentioned other personalities that could be Zolqarnain, such as: (a) Athux, who triumphed over Hamiress, a Babylonian king, (b) Monzar-ibn-Ma' al-Sama', Abu-Karb Shamrir ibn-Afriqess Homeyri.

  3. Sa'b ibn-Djabal (Ghazzali in Serr-al-Alamain [The Secret of the Two Worlds]).

  4. Zolqarnain was Cyrus the Great, the Achaemenian king. This view was recently expounded by Molana Abolkalam Azad, the Indian minister of culture, (apparently following Sir Seyyed Ahmad Khan, the famous exegete of the Qur'an) in his exegesis of the Qur'an titled "Tarjoman al-Qur'an". In this work, the Indian official put forward many arguments in support of his claim.

In between the ancient and the contemporary scholars, Meqrizi (c. 1380-1460 A.D.) suggested in his book "Al-Khotatt" that Zolqarnain was Sa'b, the king of Yemen. This suggestion was so important, but he made another remark, which was significant. He wrote: "Those who believe he was Iranian, Roman, or that he was Alexander of Macedon, are wrong" (quoted from "Cyrus the Great in the Qur'an and in the Old Testament", written by Fereydoun Badre'i, p. 110). These signified two points:

  1. During his time, there were people who believed that Zolqarnain was an Iranian.

  2. Though there were many who believed Zolqarnain was Alexander, this opinion was considered wrong.

Anyway, the contention of Molana Abolkalam Azad has received widespread attention in the Islamic world and in Iran. One of the contemporary historians, Dr. Muhammad Ebrahim Bastani Parizi, translated this treatise into Persian, with necessary annotations. Some great exegetes, such as Allameh Tabatabaie, the author of "Al-Mizan", and Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi, the author of the exegesis "Nemooneh" and translator of the Qur'an, have accepted the plausibility of this assertion. Some experts on the Qur'an, such as the late Khaza'eli, who wrote the "Qur'an's Index", considered this as reasonable and defended their stand. Also, one of the great contemporary researchers and linguists, Dr. Fereydoun Badre'i, wrote a book titled "Cyrus the Great in the Qur'an and the Old Testament" to prove this hypothesis.

But there are yet many other scholars in the Islamic World who consider Zolqarnain to be Alexander of Macedon, among them Montgomery Watt (in the Encyclopedia of Islam, Leiden), and Dr. Hossein Safavi, the contemporary Iranian scholar who wrote the book "Who is Zolqarnain?" (the latest research on Zolqarnain and the Ya'jooj and Ma'jooj, Tehran, Muhammadi Publications - Bita). He refuted Molana Abolkalam Azad's suggestion (and naturally that of Dr. Fereydoun Badre'i without mentioning his book, and all others who believed that the Achaemenian Cyrus was the Qur'anic Zolqarnain). Hence, the main competition is between two hypotheses: one that identified Zolqarnain with Alexander of Macedon, and the other that contends he was the Achaemenian Cyrus.

There are some arguments against the first idea, the most important of which are the following:

  1. There is no mention of Alexander in the Old Testament, while Cyrus is mentioned.

  2. Alexander was not a monotheist, while Zolqarnain was explicitly mentioned in the Qur'an to be a believer in one Supreme Being.

  3. There is no copper and zinc barrier, as mentioned in the Qur'an, that is associated with Alexander.

But the arguments in favor of Molana Abolkalam's claim are as follows:

  1. Cyrus is a personality mentioned in the Bible, i.e the Old Testament (the Book of Daniel, the Book of Ezra and some other books where Cyrus is referred to in very explicit terms: Daniel dreamt that in the palace of Susa in Elam, a two-horned ram triumphed over all animals, with the exception of a one-horned goat that finally defeated the ram. Daniel lost consciousness after this dream and an angel appeared to him, saying that the ram he had seen was the king of the Medes and the Persians, while the one-horned goat was the king of the Greeks) (Book of Daniel, chapter 8, verses 20-21).

  2. In the Qur'an, Zolqarnain is described as someone to whom God granted power and authority on earth. This corresponds well with the personality of Cyrus, who conquered a large part of Europe and Asia, establishing the first empire in the world.

  3. The Qur'an's Zolqarnain was God-revering and a monotheist, and so was Cyrus. As the most probable date for the appearance of Zoroaster is in the mid-sixth century B.C., this date is close to the time Cyrus lived.

  4. Zolqarnain led a military expedition to the land west of the sun. This is consistent with the Achaemenian king's military thrusts in Lydia in Asia Minor and his conquest of that country.

  5. Zolqarnain led a military expedition to the land east of the sun, corresponding to Cyrus's expedition to the southeast (Makran and Sistani) and northeast (near Balkh).

  6. The Qur'an's Zolqarnain encountered a barbarian tribe and this is consistent with Cyrus's expedition to the north and his battles with the Sakas, who may be interpreted as the barbarian tribes of the Ya'jooj and Ma'jooj. Here, Cyrus defeated the barbarians and in the Daryal Pass, which was the only passage from which they could be attacked by their neighbors, he built a barrier made of copper and iron. The people under siege might have asked Cyrus for help and provided him with manpower.

The ruins of this barrier still exist. Molana Abolkalam Azad noted that these barbarians were called different names in different areas. The Greeks referred to them as the "Lytes". In more recent times in Europe, they had been called the "Magyars" and in Asia the "Tatars". They could be identified with the Mongols (for more details, see Cyrus the Great (Zolqarnain), by Molana Abolkalam Azad, translated by Bastani Parizi, in particular Chapter 6).

In summary, one cannot decree with certainty when it comes to historical identifications, especially when dealing with stories from the Qur'an. But as can presented above, the hypothesis that the Qur'an's Zolqarnain is Cyrus the Great, appears reasonable and is highly probable.

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 02:17

Aryan, that was actually a very interesting article. Can you provide the source of it next time if you don't mind. Unless you wrote all of that by yourself.

Anyhow, there are scholars who are weighting the possibilities of Zulqarnain being Alexander or Cyrus the great. The weakest claim will be for Alexander for all the reasons mentioned in your article. However, there is a third possibility, which is  to put forward the possibility that Zul-Qarnain is really King Prophet Atlas of Mauritanus, who existed during the time of Prophet Abraham and features in the myths and legends (if they are that).

The Quran mentions Gog and Magog were among the people visited by Zul-Qarnain. According to Biblical scholars, Gog and Magog are a community of people (savages and barbarians) who reside in the North Eastern part of the world (Siberia). Alexander only ever dreamt of reaching Siberia, as we know. Therefore he could not have been the person who visited Gog and Magog. Learnt Christians would agree with us that Gog and Magog date to a period way back in history and would therefore rule out any chance of Zul-Qarnain being Alexander.
Zul-Qarnains name literally means 'two-horned one'. Zul or Dhul was a common suffix given to the ancient Kings of Yemen. He is termed so simply because part of his outfit was a horned helmet.

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  Quote Aryan Khadem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 02:30

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/zolqarnain_cyrus _quran.php

That is the link, also it is the character traits of Zolqarnainthat has been looked at which is has been compared to Cyrus...

Thank you for your comment and this is the LINK to the article



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  Quote Aryan Khadem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 02:39
This article was in response to a conversation with Azimuth
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 02:59

 

through history histroians (islamic) gave many explanation about the identiy of Zulqarneen to be more correct his nickname is pronounced "Thu Al Qarnayn". Thu as in The.

and almost all of them said that his name was AL Eskander ( Alexander) and the ones who went in furthre detailed searchs about him said that his name was Alexander but not Alexander the great and he was before Alexander the gread for many years.

the "new" calim that this person metioned in the Quran was Cyrus the Great isn't supported by any old Hitorians from the early islamic periods till now ( except for this indian guy and the other hitorians of these years)

and the Argument "mulana abdulkalam" isn't that good since the description of zulqarneen doesn't match the one with cyrus. why? because zulqarneen was metioned in more than one occasion to the Prophet and his companions and was mentioned in the books of the Historians and the claim about him being Alexander the great was also discussed through history and proven wrong and that Zulqareen was before alexander and he ruled the world.

i will comment in each of Mulana's article when i'll have more time.

 

 

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  Quote Aryan Khadem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 03:05

Well Cyrus did Rule the known world, the characteristics a smiliar, also alto has been lost, even the history of Cyrus kind of fell into myth.

But he makes a very good point as to it being Cyrus who is before Alexander.... his arguement is very solid

But it is still a theory in fact no one really knows who he is or what figure in society.

Looking at the consistancy of the people of the book is one of his arguements as well.

But I presented it so take what you want. I liked it and feel it has basis and makes a really good arguement. If you do not agree then it is up too you

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 03:31

you are correct this argument does not make any sense to me.

this figure is a historical figure and been discussed by historians through history and non did mention that he is Cyrus.

also people tend to belive any argument which they dont know much about and  that has lots of "bla bla bla" .

if you read some of the theories and the consperacies about historical and recent events you'll find why they are called theories and why they are called consperacis and NOT CALLED FACTS.

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  Quote Aryan Khadem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 03:36

sorry it is actually "Thu Qarnayn". Thu is more like a prepisition, and technically in arab it is one of the 5 nouns "al-asma2 al-khamsah", which are ab akh 7am tho foo (technically, there's ist too but we don't like to talk about that).

This is how the proper pronounciation would be "Thul-qarnayn".

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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 00:42
Originally posted by Aryan Khadem

Well Cyrus did Rule the known world, the characteristics a smiliar, also alto has been lost, even the history of Cyrus kind of fell into myth.

Really? Which Cyrus you are talking about ruled the world? What's your definition for the "known world"? I bet you weren't refering to the Cyrus the Great (or Hosraw) who was killed in a battle with Turan lady leader Tomaris.

 

 

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  Quote Aryan Khadem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 01:02
Turan??? he died fight the Dahae not Turan..... Get it right, Dahae was one of the most savage and very strong like fighters, who used Gorilla war fair and spoke a Iranic language not Turkish, this is way before Turks where anything to deal with... Cyrsu the Great yes what of him???? Known World well look it up.... From modern Day Tajikstan to Macedonia and Egypt... Even the Numbians came during Naw Ruz and paid tribute...
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 01:27

Are you telling legends? Just to remind you, This is a history forum.

I didn't say Turkish, I said Turan, Turan.

Dude, learn geography. Tajikistan isn't the east where the sun rise. It is far from to be.

Either make a history or become a history.
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  Quote Aryan Khadem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 04:57
What part of that is legend well any accounts can be but that is history what proof do you have that it was Turan?? Turan does not even enter ancient farsi at this stage!
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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 07:10

youre high man, what did you toke? High dosis of XTC?

i bet he did...

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  Quote Yekta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 12:51
Originally posted by DayI

youre high man, what did you toke? High dosis of XTC?

i bet he did...

Could you - pretty please with sugar on top - debate without getting personal?

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  Quote Rakhsh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 07:34

I agree, Aryan gave evidences and gave his opinion and agve reasons for it! How about showing the same respect and give yours with reasons you think this way and sources for it.....

Thank you have a nice day

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 12:10
DayI it may seem funny to you, but you will need to avoid spamming. Others here want to continue under a civil discourse.
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  Quote Super Goat (^_^) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 19:11
Zul i think is what ppl like egyptians pronounce Thul.

Thu just means That of, ( one that of 2 horns, to be exact.)

to this day i still dont understand the piont of the story. its said in the quran that the barrier was set up to keep the magogs from goin over the "other side", and that they consitentlly are devouring the wall until the day of judgement? which is when they break through and rampage through out the world?

i dono but the whole thing might be a metaphor that may actualy mean something else, .....just an opinion


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  Quote Rakhsh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 01:39
I think Super goat is has a point. But in formal Arabic it is Thul, maybe in different dialects it changes, Well the problem is the Quran is not written for men to understand it was written from the Iman Zeman or Mahdi depending on the take, that is what I interpered from it but I could be wrong.
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 01:55

Originally posted by Rakhsh

Well the problem is the Quran is not written for men to understand it was written from the Iman Zeman or Mahdi depending on the take, that is what I interpered from it but I could be wrong.

If Quran was sent to humankind, then obviously it is sent for men to understand, not the opposite. However, some stories in the Quran do not emphasize on the exact historical description and focus more on the lesson or the analogy. This difference is what characterizes the Quran as a philosophical book rather than a narrative book as the bible.

What is the exact story of Thu Alquarnayen in historical definition? Unfortunately it was not covered in the Quran. 

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  Quote Rakhsh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 05:57

I think Aryan covers that but the purpose I do not know, I can't read Arabic so I do not know, I only know scholarly interpertations and books on explaining certian terms in an academic way.

I thought What aryan said was a more logical interpertation but then he could be wrong and what do I know.

But it made sense to me, everyone I guess will get a different view and take on it



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