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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Anti-Arab propaganda
    Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 15:14
 

Originally posted by azimuth

note as per the encyclopedias i have Judaisim is older than zoroastrian religion, and the rest of the theories talking about the opposite were mentioned as a side notes not as a main notes.



How does the relationship between Judaism and Zoroastrianiam relates to the topic being discussed here. Are you trying to prove that Islam was copied from Judaism only and that that is OK. If you like to discuss the relationship between any other two religions just open a new topic and I will be happy to discuss if I know anything about that subject



Originally posted by ok ge

Miller, Let us not waste time on assumptions. Your only argument now is that Islam must have copied Zoraostrianism because of similarities in terminologies and concepts.



I didn't say anything about copy. I said whoever wrote Quran new about Zoroastrianism and considered it divine since some of the concept with the exact name of location and process continue in Islam



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 15:14

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

It is obvious that you want to fool yourself, it seems as if I say "the blood runs through my veins and I walk down the street (we know the Sun is fixed, if we assume that it meant the Solar System) but it is not permitted to me to catch up the blood", isn't it silly?

Cyrus, the blood is not running in a seperate orbit than your body. Its orbit or "viens" are part of your body. However, the moon has an orbit seperate from the sun. The verse talks about two different seperate entities. Sun & moon, and not the solar system & the moon. While the moon is part of of the solar system, it is not part of the sun. Thus, the moon runs on its orbit seperate from the sun and it is not premitted for the moon to leave its norm orbit toward the sun, neither permitted for the sun to catch up the moon and collide with it (which is appearently swallowing).

Im not fooling myself Cyrus. I don't recall you are an expert in Arabic and no wonder you are really pushing on an awfully weak point. Even if you were able to draw any flaws in my explaination, it will be Cok Gec's interpretation error. If you are so passionate about discreditg the Quran, how about if you directed your energy toward finding other more disputed verses? Start googling, it helps.

Originally posted by Miller

 
I didn't say anything about copy. I said whoever wrote Quran new about Zoroastrianism and considered it divine since some of the concept with the exact name of location and process continue in Islam

Uha, well Im sure too that God knows about Zoroastrianism.

 



Edited by ok ge
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 15:48
ok ge, the sun is fixed, did you know it yourself?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 16:52

Zoroastrism is not a religion but a philosophy. Zoroaster was not a prophet, he never claimed having any relationship with god.

 Thus Mohamad wasn't a prophet , just a philosophe such as zoroaster, Platon, Boudha...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 19:30

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

ok ge, the sun is fixed, did you know it yourself?

No, the sun is not fixed. While the moon orbits the Earth.  The Earth orbits the Sun. Shockingly, today's astronomers know that our Sun (on the edge of the Milky Way Galaxy) is orbiting the center of the Galaxy.  Our galaxy is spiral (it kind of has dozens of "arms" spiraling outward), and our solar systems is on the edge of one of those arms.

Why we don't notice the Sun moving is because once every hundred million (much longer, actually) years, it makes a complete revolution throughout the entire galaxy! Our solar system has only one star, it is speculated most other systems have binary star system (two stars orbiting each other). 

As I said,  no point in beating this claim to its limit. It is from the begining an awfully weak argument. 

Originally posted by Saka

 Thus Mohamad wasn't a prophet , just a philosophe such as zoroaster, Platon, Boudha...

If Muhammed was a philosopher, I want to understand how a philosopher can describe precisely the formation of human embryology detailed account 1400 years ago?  

upon by commentators of the Holy Quran that amshaj means mingling, as mans water mingles with that of the woman, and this is also what the Prophet (PBUH) confirmed in one of his speeches.  Imam Ahmed indicated in his book Al Musnad that a Jew passed by the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) while he  was addressing his companions.  Some people from Quarish said; O Jew! This man proclaims that he is a prophet.  The Jew said: I will ask him of something no one knows except a prophet.  He asked the prophet (PBUH); O Mohammed! What is man created from?  The Prophet (PBUH) said; O Jew! Man is created from both: mans fluid (nutfa) and womans fluid.  The Jew said; This is said by those prophets before you. .

 
and many many more scientific miracles. I advice reading the book "The bible, the Quran and science" by Maurice Bucaille.
 
Or maybe he learned it too from Zoraostrainism or greeks??!!

 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 20:27
Originally posted by ok ge

Originally posted by Saka

 Thus Mohamad wasn't a prophet , just a philosophe such as zoroaster, Platon, Boudha...

If Muhammed was a philosopher, I want to understand how a philosopher can describe precisely the formation of human embryology detailed account 1400 years ago?  

upon by commentators of the Holy Quran that amshaj means mingling, as mans water mingles with that of the woman, and this is also what the Prophet (PBUH) confirmed in one of his speeches.  Imam Ahmed indicated in his book Al Musnad that a Jew passed by the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) while he  was addressing his companions.  Some people from Quarish said; O Jew! This man proclaims that he is a prophet.  The Jew said: I will ask him of something no one knows except a prophet.  He asked the prophet (PBUH); O Mohammed! What is man created from?  The Prophet (PBUH) said; O Jew! Man is created from both: mans fluid (nutfa) and womans fluid.  The Jew said; This is said by those prophets before you. .

 
and many many more scientific miracles. I advice reading the book "The bible, the Quran and science" by Maurice Bucaille.
 
Or maybe he learned it too from Zoraostrainism or greeks??!!

Are you Kidding?

 Mister Cok,  Your nationalism toward Arabian and Islam is impressing!

You should Know science including medicine has a long history in Middle and Near East and goes back to the ancient Mesopotamian period Beginning 3000BC!!!!! 

Mohamad invented anything. Arabians copied everything.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 20:39

Detailed embryology? More like common sense, even in the context of that age. Romans used to use sheep bladders for contraception, so obviously they knew what the fluid they ejaculated into a woman would do.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 21:38

Cok Gec I agree with your view on this. As we see not everyone does. But I do not see a need from Hadiths. The Koran itself will do fine.

http://asadi.95mb.com/koranfiles/

More science info in the Koran.

http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistground/asadi-koranscien ce.shtml



Edited by Seko
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 22:15

I agree,

   I guess the use of the Hadith was not clear. It works as an introduction to the website I posted under the hadith directly. In that link, a collection of Hadiths that describe the stages and even the exact number of days for some stages. Anyhow, the Quran definitely points much more. We don't have to go in details about them, because links are provided for that purpose.

Originally posted by Saka

 Mister Cok,  Your nationalism toward Arabian and Islam is impressing!

Actually you mean my defense to Islam is impressing. Thank you for trying to point out that lol.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 23:28

Miller

relationship between Judaism and Zoroastrianiam DO relates to the topic being discussed here. and iam not trying to point out that islam "copied" judaisim or anything.

that zoroastrianiam copied Judaisim can be a possibility. and Judaisim is recognised by muslims to be a religion which came from God and by time people changed many of its principls and rules.

so having similarities between the Zoroastians and Islam wont be a supprise.

specially in one god . heaven and hell concepts similarities.

add to that the words similarities that other took as proofs, words such as Ferdose is what gardens were called by persians, also they used Bustan.Heaven in the Quran had lots of other names and discriptions. so even IF Ferdose cam from a persian orgin then it was just a name and a  description of a place in heaven SO Arabs would know and visualize how it may look like. as far as i know gardens are named as per their trees type and look, so having this name isn't prooving much.its a matter of making the message clear by making examples and points.

but then if you dont belive in God existance you for sure will be looking for sources of each religion. which will give rise to the question of Where did Zoroaster got these Ideas and from these ideas founded a religion? it seems that you changed your mind about Salam al Farisi since you quoted and commented on a small paragraph of my post there. so keep making up new theories and assumption

anyway may continue this later i'll be away for sometime.

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 02:49
 

OK,   so in your school if things come from Judaism that is OK but if they come from Zoroastranism that would be a bad thing.


Originally posted by azimuth

specially in one god . heaven and hell concepts similarities.



Sorry, No hell is Judaism and no heaven in early Judaism in the late Judaism there is a heaven but not with dimensions likes Christianity, Islam, and Zoroastrianiam. Just check with your local Rabbi or search the Tura for Sheol

The detailed level judgment day with angeles holding scales and bridge going to heaven is only unique to Islam and Zoroastrianism. From Wikipedia on this subject

The concept of heaven was imported into Judaism from Zoroastrianism, perhaps by the prophet Daniel through his exposure to the Zoroastrian Magi of the court of Darius I. The belief in heaven appears to have supplanted the earlier concept of Sheol (mentioned in Isaiah 38:18, Psalms 6:5 and Job 7:7-10).






Originally posted by azimuth

add to that the words similarities that other took as proofs, words such as Ferdose is what gardens were called by persians, also they used Bustan.Heaven in the Quran had lots of other names and discriptions. so even IF Ferdose cam from a persian orgin then it was just a name and a  description of a place in heaven SO Arabs would know and visualize how it may look like. as far as i know gardens are named as per their trees type and look, so having this name isn't prooving much.its a matter of making the message clear by making examples and points.

No these are not just words of Persian origin, both Zoroastrianism and Islam have used the same words to refer to specific locations in heavens, or specific concepts



Originally posted by azimuth

your CD ROM respond is not proving anything the Quran has 114 chapters and 87 chapters were already written when the prophet was in Makkah and only 27 chapters were written in madina where he and salman met.



no proof of this one. This is just point of view of some Muslim's. That was the point of the posting from wikipedia to see other peoples point of view.

I haven't changed my mind about anything I have said before, but as much as I want to discuss this subject I have limited time to make long posts here. As I said before I have not seen enough evidence to say Salman wrote Quran, but I have not seen anything that disprove it either and there is a possibility, and I don't think this topic was started to discuss Salman it was made to discuss propaganda against Arabs Good luck with the exams



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 03:28

It doesn't matter. There was a claim and the burdon of proof on those who support the claim. The claim started as:

Originally posted by Saka

Islam IS a persian invention and Salman Al Parsi IS it creator.

So what my arabians friends?! do u take that as an insult for ur community? 

Here, where Salman Al Farisi was called the creator of Islam. Obviously this logic failed soon. I cannot say Salman Al Farisi created Islam as above without any support, and expect a proof that he actually didn't create Islam. The burdon of proof is on those who claim it. Thus, no one care Miller if you are convinced about anything or not.

Same thing goes to the claim that Salman Al Farisi has contributed in the Quran.

Originally posted by Miller

  As I said before I have not seen enough evidence to say Salman wrote Quran, but I have not seen anything that disprove it either and there is a possibility

Yes, no support so far that " Salman Al Farisi wrote Quran", that is still standing here with no support. It does not matter if you are convinced or not about it. It does not matter if you "haven't seen anything that disprove it". The burdon of proof on you if you claim it. Show that possibility.

And Yes, our topic started different, but that same quote of Seka, is what deviated us also from the original topic.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 10:17
Originally posted by azimuth

that zoroastrianiam copied Judaisim can be a possibility. and Judaisim is recognised by muslims to be a religion which came from God and by time people changed many of its principls and rules.

so having similarities between the Zoroastians and Islam wont be a supprise.

specially in one god . heaven and hell concepts similarities.

anyway may continue this later i'll be away for sometime.

 So funny .... So funny....

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 12:54

Muhammad the prophet says: "If the Religion were at the Pleiades (very distant stars), no one can find it except a Persian!"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 12:59

Most probably a hadith. Which leaves the reliability of such a saying in doubt.

Personally, I like the notion that Persians can find religion most anywhere. Just wonder why they can but no one else can't. Hmmm!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 13:37
Can someone explain the concept of a caliph in an islamic context?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 16:10

Zagros asked:

 

Can someone explain the concept of a caliph in an islamic context?

 

Here I tried my very best to explain

 

In Islamic context, Caliph is a leader of the Muslims who responsible on managing the Islam countries and Islam affairs. In order so that Islamic Laws and Regulations are followed and Implemented efficiently and correctly.. and to expand Islam Syariat all over the world

 

Maybe others have better explanation than mine



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 17:19

i was ignoring this topic becoz the subject seemed irrelevant to me. Anti-Arab propaganda? it sounds to me like its Anti-Islamic propaganda. Islam is a religion concerning all muslims, not just arabs.

may God be pleased with you guys cok gec, seko and azimuth. expecially cok gec, showing and doing everything in his power to prove these vicious lies wrong. im not going to waste my time replying to any "theories - that have no strong basis" so ill just leave use with an answer from Allah, to the dis-believers.

In the Name of Allah, The Most Beneficent, The Most Merciful

1.       Say, Oh you who Dislbelieve

2.       I worship not that which you worship

3.       Nor will you worship that which I worship

4.       And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping

5.       Nor will you worship that which I worship

6. To you be your Deen(religion, belief) and to me my Deen(Islam)

 

Either your a slave to what MADE-MAN
Or your a slave to what MAN-MADE
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 17:26
before trying to prove Islam wrong think about the 24% of the whole earth who believe "there is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his Messenger". becarefull what use say, thats a lot of people who you are not considering when you say Islam is a lie and copied religion.
Either your a slave to what MADE-MAN
Or your a slave to what MAN-MADE
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 17:51
I am agree with ottoman_turk... this discussion (if can be considered as discussion)... most of the replies are more toward anti-Islam and there are very exaggerated... and full with insultations
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