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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Anti-Arab propaganda
    Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 21:50

To gok cek and azimuth particularily, I have came upon a few articles on the internet that says Salman al Faresi invented Islam to get back at Zoroastrians for some reason or another, i'm not sure really, how do you dispell this rumour?

Also did the arabs actually destroyed the persian libraries during the time of arab conquests? did Umar claim they contained something that would contradict the holy Quran?

I'd like some facts and sources supporting your replies please. I find these subjects very interesting.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 21:54

The Persians are crying laudly, don' t care it. Zaroastrian priests were torturing them, they sided with Arabs.

Would Muslims burn books when they were ordered to read in the first place?

Would islam armies rape women when they were ordered to refrain from lust?

Would islam armies kill people who were defensless when they were ordered to keep peace?

Don't care... But I do not say the same things to Umayyads, they were harsh against Persians.

 

Now the thing is their noble blood can not accept trhe fact that, Arabs converted them to Islam. That is only it.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 22:23
Originally posted by Fizzil

To gok cek and azimuth particularily, I have came upon a few articles on the internet that says Salman al Faresi invented Islam to get back at Zoroastrians for some reason or another, i'm not sure really, how do you dispell this rumour?

Also did the arabs actually destroyed the persian libraries during the time of arab conquests? did Umar claim they contained something that would contradict the holy Quran?

I'd like some facts and sources supporting your replies please. I find these subjects very interesting.

well show us the sources of these "articles" and if they do have any proofs of what they claim, then we'll proove the opposite.

i think these type of rumors started just lately from Iranians who are tired from the Islamic regime in Iran and developed lots of hat toward Islam and Arabs and because they cant do much to change anything they are trying to Persianize the religion which somehow sounds better to them.

anyhow show us their sources and proofs then we'll discuss although i'll be busy in the comming two weeks due to exams and stuff.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 04:02

I'm fully aware of that Hulagu Han, but you cannot ignore their claims for long.

Azimuth here are the articles:

"The Coming of Islam

During the Sasanid dynasty, from the 3rd century of the Common Era to the 7th, Iran experienced a flourishing of its literary culture. New libraries were built and literature, both religious and secular, was collected. TheAvestawas reassembled from remnants and standardized during this period, and religious commentary was gathered as well. Non-religious writings included works on astronomy, mathematics, history, medicine, politics, warfare and music. During the reign of Khosrow I (531-579), foreign works of entertainment -- including Hellenistic romance literature and Indian tales, such as the legend of Barlaam and Josaphat -- were brought into Iran and translated. But all this was to change.

The single most significant event in Iranian history was the Arab invasion and the arrival of Islam in the 7th century. Islam's victory in Iran marked a dramatic break with the country's past. Following his defeat in the battle of al-Qadisiyya, in 637, Yazdegerd III, the last king of the Sasanid dynasty, was forced to flee from his winter capital, Taysafun. The city and its treasures were left to the mercy of the Arab conquerors. The vast royal palace, Taq Kisra, was occupied, and like much of the city, its library was destroyed. The city was then rebuilt, and its deserted ruins were used as building materials.

The Arabs forbade Iranians to use the Persian language. Arabic became the language of law and culture. For two centuries no books -- at least no surviving books -- were written in Persian. Despite Arab censorship, Iranians never stopped speaking their own language. The spoken word became a means of creating and preserving literature. This oral tradition is still alive today.

When one Arab commander was asked by his army what they should do with the Iranians' books, he answered that, since the Qur'an was the only book worth reading and preserving, all books in Persian should be destroyed. Other Arab commanders apparently had similar feelings. Persian works of science, poetry and prose were judged to be immoral and were banned. Arab soldiers set fire to Iran's libraries, burning books or throwing them into rivers, all to destroy the written literature, which bore witness to the defeated people's past. One group of Zoroastrian priests was able to save parts of the Avesta. Another group emigrated to India, taking with them theAvesta and other books. Today only a small part of the Avesta remains.

The Samanid period (819-999) brought a renaissance of Iranian literature. In their struggle against the Arabs for power and independence, the Samanids used the Persian language as a political weapon. They renewed Persian as a language of literature. This period saw the emergence of Modern Persian, or Farsi, which uses the Arabic alphabet and incorporates many Arabic words. The poet Rudaki revived Persian lyrical poetry. Persian books on such topics as administration, history, science and religion were written and published. Commentaries on the Qur'an were translated from Arabic to Persian.

Before long, Persian became the second major language of Islamic high culture. The intellectual vitality of the Samanid capital, Bukhara, attracted leading scholars and poets, both Persian and Arabic, and the city rivaled Baghdad as the cultural capital of Islam. Many of Bukhara's writers were bilingual and wrote their books in both languages.

The greatest literary achievement of this period was the composition of the Persian national epic, the Shahnameh (Book of Kings), a book that even today is of signal importance in Iranian cultural life. TheShahnameh was written for Sultan Mahmud of Ghazna by the poet Abu Ol-qasem Mansur Ferdowsi, who completed the work in 1010. He gathered and set to verse different prose versions, written in Pahlavi, or Middle Persian, of the histories of the kings of Persia. The epic, which was 35 years in the writing, consists of nearly 60,000 couplets, and its story spans several thousand years. It begins in mythical times and concludes with the Arab conquest.

The impact of the Shahnamehwas immense. It reminded Iranians of the country's glorious past. Even today, nearly a thousand years after its completion, this legendary masterwork is read and recited by Iranians of all walks of life, from urban intellectuals to simple village farmers. It is read in teahouses, and many illiterate people learn it by heart so that they can recite it themselves. Islamic fundamentalists do not, of course, honor the Shahnameh,because to them Iran's pre-Islamic history does not merit such regard. But even as they hate it, they are nonetheless affected by it, often in ways they are not even aware of. Its influence is pervasive in the idioms of Iranian life -- in the names, words, tales and ideas we use every day.

Over time, Arab hostility to Persian culture abated and was transformed into its opposite. In The History of Islamic Culture, the Lebanese historian Jurji Zaydan discusses the great interest the Arabs developed in learning from other nations. They translated into Arabic Greek works in science and philosophy and Persian texts in astronomy, history and music. Historians know of more than 70 Persian texts that were translated into Arabic in the 11th century alone."


http://www.honco.net/os/index_0204.html <--- above quote also comes from the same source apparently. (also read the article)

Problem is the author of the article claims its from Ibn Khalduns al Muqqadimah, and the other source is from Abu Rayhan al Biruni.

"At the time of the conquest of Iran many books of that country fell into the hands of the Arabs. Sa'd ibn Abi al-Waqqas wrote to `Umar ibn al-Khattab asking his permission to have them translated for Muslims. 'Umar wrote to him in reply that he should cast them into water, "for if what is written in those books is guidance, God has given us a better guide; and if that which is in those books is misleading, God has saved us from their evil." Accordingly those books were cast into water or fire, and the sciences of the Iranians that were contained in them were destroyed and did not reach us." <---- this one is from al Muqqadimah.

Abu Rayhan Biruni, in al-Athar al-baqiyyah, writing about Khwarizm, says: "When Qutaybah ibn Muslim reconquered Khwarizm after the apostasy of its inhabitants, he appointed Iskajmuk as its governor. Qutaybah destroyed and eliminated everyone who knew the Khwarazmi script or had some knowledge of its people and their sciences. He dispersed them in different parts of the world, and so-their traditions and conditions have remained unknown, to the extent that after the advent of Islam there remains no means to learn about the facts concerning them."

Also Abu Rayhan writes in the same book: "When Qutaybah ibn Muslim destroyed their scribes and killed their priests (hirbads) and burnt their books and writings, the people of Khwarizm were reduced to illiteracy. They were compelled to rely upon their memory in things that were needed by them. In the course of time they forgot all details pertaining to their differences and preserved in their memory only the general matters on which there was agreement among them.

Here is an article that is "considered" credible by someone who i was debating with, but it had no sources:

http://wais.stanford.edu/Iran/iranandislam.htm

I wouldn't really bother, but i'd like a proper debunk to it as well.

EDIT: oh and thanks in advance



Edited by Fizzil
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 11:18

 

the first article has nothing about Salman alfarisi and that Islam came from Zoroastrian religion and its mostly about the science and knowlegde Arabs destroyed when they conquered Persia/iran.

i personally dont know much about that period but i'll check the sources you posted and see if that happened or not. 

-----

now the secound one link   

as i suspected no sources and nothing but some claims and assumptions based on some similarities between TODAY'S Zoroastrains and Islam.

note Today's zoroastrain. dont know how accurate is it now from its begining. but then  if they dont have sources and proofs why should we bother replaying to that !

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 11:32
I think both Iranians who say Salman invented Islam and Arabs who consider this saying as an insult to Arabs, are anti-Islam, because Islam is a divine religion, isn't it?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 12:05

 

no i dont think Arabs consider this saying as an insult to Arabs more like its an insult to Islam itself and to its Prophet.

the first piller of islam is to belive and wittness that there is no God but Allah and Muhammed is his Slave and Messenger (Rasul).

so Iranians saying that Islam came from Persia and the Prophet pretended that it came from Allah and considered himself as the Messenger of God is a pure insult to the Religion and its prophet.

although i personally dont mind to discuss this IF there are any proofs of such thing  which there aren't any except some similarites between the two religions.

which also raises some suspesions about Zoroastrian religion and if it was Really the same as the one Zoraster founded, for many reasons Zoroaster's existance is not known for sure and the errore of that is more than 3000 years period, then their Holy Book is not known if it is the same as the one practiced before or not. these are not an easy things to take as sources for a  religion has that much of "timing" errors of the founder and the holy book.

from that i dont see how can the modern Iranians can use this as a comparison between the two religion, comparing Islam with Judaisim would be more realistic than comparing it to zoroastrain one.

so its useless to discuss something not even prooven with solid sources and proofs.

nothing but assumptions to support the current hatrad toward Islam and Arabs some iranian has due to the current Iranian rule and policy.

dont know if those iranian think that their ancient empires were good to the iranians more than the current one or not?

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 13:06
 

Regardless of if there is adequate evidence to support Salman connection or not. The title of this topic is Anti-Arab propaganda and is directed to the two Arabs in this forum, so Arabs do feel they have some ownership right to Islam and someone is trying to take that away. Also, you keep connecting this whole things to Iranians and the Islamic revolution. Most of the research that has been done on this subject so far has been in western academia by non Iranians and before the Islamic Revolution in Iran. Mary Boyce was not an Iranian unhappy with Islamic revolution in her country you know

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 13:26
Miller said exactly what I wanted to say, if Islam is a divine religion then it doesn't belong to just Arabs, so if someones says something against it, it doesn't mean that he/she is anti-Arab.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 13:44

Originally posted by Miller

  Regardless of if there is adequate evidence to support Salman connection or not. The title of this topic is Anti-Arab propaganda and is directed to the two Arabs in this forum, so Arabs do feel they have some ownership right to Islam and someone is trying to take that away. Also, you keep connecting this whole things to Iranians and the Islamic revolution.

   Actually there are more than only 2 Arabs in this forum. I think 7 as far as I remember. Anyhow, I don't think discrediting Islam using Salman Al Farisi is an insult to the Arab. However, if you read carefully what is posted previously, the point of insulting Islam is actually an effort to claim it is an Arab invention, turns back to Arab conquest, .....bla bla bla

  So it starts from Islam, but it goes back to Arab in an effort to proove that Islam was only an Arab invention stolen from religions around that time. That by itself is for sure an insult as someone claiming that Arab fabricated the religion of Islam. I hope you followed the logic here and it is clear to you the connection they try to build.

   Now, I don't see anything connected to Salman Al Farisi in that article. However, I do realize the raising anti-Arab propoganda around the region. For instance, I came across this:

"Only Israel, the Jewish State, has fully liberated itself - in the political sense - from this Arab/Muslim oppression, although it still suffers from physical violence against her people.."

http://old.krg.org/docs/articles/opinion-israel-support-kurd s-syria-mar04.asp

Now, you might be suprised that this is not in Mo Shmo's somebody's website. That was actually posted under the webiste of the Kurdistan Regional Government of Iraq!

The article goes on and on about Arab oppression since the rise of Islam without giving  evidance and end up as usually connecting Saddam Hussien as a continuation of that prosecution! Almost a similar technique where people who are trying to discredit the Arab control of the region use the brutality of the Mullah Iranian regime. All these lacks basic evidance and support even by their writers. Exactly similar to the flying parrots who repeat Salman Al Farisi taught the prophet the prayers in Islam form Zorastianism, failing to understand a basic fact that prayer was constitued in Mecca years years before even the Prophet (PBUH) immigrated to Madinah and met Salman Al Farisi .



Edited by ok ge
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 14:55

Islam IS a persian invention and Salman Al Parsi IS it creator.

So what my arabians friends?! do u take that as an insult for ur community? 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 15:02
Saka, enough provocation! If you have nothing useful to say, don't say anything.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 15:20
Originally posted by Fizzil

I'm fully aware of that Hulagu Han, but you cannot ignore their claims for long.

Well Fizzil, you have sometimes to ignore them especially when they lack evidance. Only when they come in a logical approach, then it makes sense to argue them. However, internet is full of anti-Arab propoganda. As i already mentioned, i like the term "flying parrots". They repeat whatever they hear as long as it pleases what they like to hear.

Now, regarding the myth of destroying Sassanids libraries, I will be much very interested to learn the sources that back up that argument. Most claimers of that incidence are anti-Muslim or anti-Arab writers. I found this for instance on this anti-Muslim webiste http://faithfreedom.org/index.htm.

"one of the most infamous acts of the Arab invaders was to burn Persian libraries with centuries of collected books. The Islamic logic to justify this vandalism was that if Persian knowledge agreed with the Koran, then these Persian books were superfluous and if they contradicted the Koran, then they should be destroyed. An unbeatable argument."

So, as you might see, the argument here is beyond holding even the claim itself. How can the Muslims (or the Arabs invaders as you might like to call it) destroy persian books because they contradict Quran but translate Greek, Indian, Buddhist, and even Jewish and Christian books to Arabic for library use in Baghdad and Andalucia? Osman the 3rd caliphate has even encouraged translation from other sources regardless of their origin as long as it constitute a benifit. No one was concerned if the greeks believe in multipe gods or if life is a combination of fire, dust,and water....etc

That just defies the basic known assumptions. As I mentioned earlier, they will be always used for whatever propogandas they like to backup, and will leave you to dig for their truth, because they know not all people will do so. It is an effort even to discredit the weakest argument.



Edited by ok ge
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 15:30

Originally posted by Zagros

Saka, enough provocation! If you have nothing useful to say, don't say anything.

What is the matter dude?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 16:09

I am a non-muslim, but I've always tried to keep an open attitude towards all religions and I am not easily swayed by propaganda. I have however heard such accusations about book burnings before, and not from Persian sources. Western historians have written that the Arabs burned Greek books when they conquered Egypt using the exact same rationale: if they agree with the Koran they are superflous, if they disagree with the Koran, they are wrong. I don't have any sources right now, but I could look for some if you wanted.

My impression was that the early Arab conquerors were very fundamentalist and most of them were probably illiterate. The Conquest of Persia and Eqypt was achieved by commanders and armies which had not fully abandoned the way of life of the Arabian desert. However, after a couple of generations, the Arabs became very civilized and started to not only accept and adopt Greek and Persian science and philosophy, but to bring their own contributions to the intellectual life of the world community. By the time of Haroun al-Rashid, they were arguably the most advanced civilization in the world (possibly equaled by the Chinese and the Byzantines). I find it very plusible that excesses in the name of Islam may have been commited in the early conquests  though.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 16:17
Well, I will be interested to look into those sources too.  The article posted earlier, didn't even mention who are those "When one Arab commander " who burned those books? no name so far. And Actually they were illitrate, however, they were forced by a code of war conduct from Abu Baker (first Caliph) and all the way down till the Ummayyed. That code of conduct exists in the Quran, but no guarantee that later kingdoms followed it. However, earlier, it was a strict code of conduct, in which even cutting a trea in the war for vandalism is prohibited. That code of conduct actually helped the conquests as most people didnt' resisted that much in expectation of equal treatment policies.

Edited by ok ge
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 17:25
Thanks to all who contributed, especial Cok gec and Azimuth, hey i'm arab as well so these allegations has worried me for a while till i read your replies
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 18:03

I think we can cut it off when we said (Salman arrived to arabia after  the begining of islam and beleived in the prophet).

Then He became one of the greatest companion of the Prophet(PBUH).  I challenged Saka or any other one to give me a source deny what I said I think Who said this lies insult islam as a relgion not only the Arab.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 18:29

Good/BAd : zoroastrian concept

"Adam": zoroastrian word for "man".

After life: zoroastrian concept

Paradise: zoroastrian word "paradeza"

Evil: zoroastrian concept

....

....

enough?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 18:36
What? every religion have it's concepts and what you sad exist in all relgion I think you must stop it here because your argument is useless or you will bannen dude.
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