Anti-Arab propaganda

It doesn't matter. There was a claim and the burdon of proof on those who support the claim. The claim started as:

Here, where Salman Al Farisi was called the creator of Islam. Obviously this logic failed soon. I cannot say Salman Al Farisi created Islam as above without any support, and expect a proof that he actually didn't create Islam. The burdon of proof is on those who claim it. Thus, no one care Miller if you are convinced about anything or not.

Same thing goes to the claim that Salman Al Farisi has contributed in the Quran.

Yes, no support so far that " Salman Al Farisi wrote Quran", that is still standing here with no support. It does not matter if you are convinced or not about it. It does not matter if you "haven't seen anything that disprove it". The burdon of proof on you if you claim it. Show that possibility.

And Yes, our topic started different, but that same quote of Seka, is what deviated us also from the original topic.

Miller

relationship between Judaism and Zoroastrianiam DO relates to the topic being discussed here. and iam not trying to point out that islam "copied" judaisim or anything.

that zoroastrianiam copied Judaisim can be a possibility. and Judaisim is recognised by muslims to be a religion which came from God and by time people changed many of its principls and rules.

so having similarities between the Zoroastians and Islam wont be a supprise.

specially in one god . heaven and hell concepts similarities.

add to that the words similarities that other took as proofs, words such as Ferdose is what gardens were called by persians, also they used Bustan.Heaven in the Quran had lots of other names and discriptions. so even IF Ferdose cam from a persian orgin then it was just a name and a  description of a place in heaven SO Arabs would know and visualize how it may look like. as far as i know gardens are named as per their trees type and look, so having this name isn't prooving much.its a matter of making the message clear by making examples and points.

but then if you dont belive in God existance you for sure will be looking for sources of each religion. which will give rise to the question of Where did Zoroaster got these Ideas and from these ideas founded a religion? it seems that you changed your mind about Salam al Farisi since you quoted and commented on a small paragraph of my post there. so keep making up new theories and assumption

anyway may continue this later i'll be away for sometime.

Cok Gec I agree with your view on this. As we see not everyone does. But I do not see a need from Hadiths. The Koran itself will do fine.

http://asadi.95mb.com/koranfiles/

More science info in the Koran.

http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistground/asadi-koranscien ce.shtml

Originally posted by �ok ge� Originally posted by Saka  Thus Mohamad wasn't a prophet , just a philosophe such as zoroaster, Platon, Boudha... If Muhammed was a philosopher, I want to understand how a philosopher can describe precisely the formation of human embryology detailed account 1400 years ago?   upon by commentators of the Holy Quran that �amshaj� means mingling, as man�s water mingles with that of the woman, and this is also what the Prophet (PBUH) confirmed in one of his speeches.  Imam Ahmed indicated in his book �Al Musnad� that a Jew passed by the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) while he  was addressing his companions.  Some people from Quarish said; �O Jew! This man proclaims that he is a prophet.�  The Jew said: � I will ask him of something no one knows except a prophet.�  He asked the prophet (PBUH); � O Mohammed! What is man created from?  The Prophet (PBUH) said; �O Jew! Man is created from both: man�s fluid (nutfa) and woman�s fluid.�  The Jew said; �This is said by those prophets before you.� . http://www.islamicmedicine.org/embryoengtext.htm   and many many more scientific miracles. I advice reading the book "The bible, the Quran and science" by Maurice Bucaille.   Or maybe he learned it too from Zoraostrainism or greeks??!!

Are you Kidding?

 Mister Cok,  Your nationalism toward Arabian and Islam is impressing!

You should Know science including medicine has a long history in Middle and Near East and goes back to the ancient Mesopotamian period Beginning 3000BC!!!!! 

Mohamad invented anything. Arabians copied everything.

Zoroastrism is not a religion but a philosophy. Zoroaster was not a prophet, he never claimed having any relationship with god.

 Thus Mohamad wasn't a prophet , just a philosophe such as zoroaster, Platon, Boudha...

Cyrus, the blood is not running in a seperate orbit than your body. Its orbit or "viens" are part of your body. However, the moon has an orbit seperate from the sun. The verse talks about two different seperate entities. Sun & moon, and not the solar system & the moon. While the moon is part of of the solar system, it is not part of the sun. Thus, the moon runs on its orbit seperate from the sun and it is not premitted for the moon to leave its norm orbit toward the sun, neither permitted for the sun to catch up the moon and collide with it (which is appearently swallowing).

Im not fooling myself Cyrus. I don't recall you are an expert in Arabic and no wonder you are really pushing on an awfully weak point. Even if you were able to draw any flaws in my explaination, it will be Cok Gec's interpretation error. If you are so passionate about discreditg the Quran, how about if you directed your energy toward finding other more disputed verses? Start googling, it helps.

Uha, well Im sure too that God knows about Zoroastrianism.

It is obvious that you want to fool yourself, it seems as if I say "the blood runs through my veins and I walk down the street (we know the Sun is fixed, if we assume that it meant the Solar System) but it is not permitted to me to catch up the blood", isn't it silly?

Then in this case, I won't be redundant.  Artaxiad has already addressed the question in regards to your analogy.

However, It is not his religion. If you think he sat down in Mecca and invented Islam on a summer day, then prove it.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri If you read the next verses then you will undrestand that my translation was so much better than yours! Does someone who knows the situation of the huge Sun and the small moon of the earth, say: 40. It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).

Sorry Cyrus, you cannot start translating Quran by yourself. We have already translated Qurans. Summing "your own" understanding of 3 verses in one translated verse is not better than anything. That is also not "my translation" as you say. I provided a link from where I got it. Im an Arab and I can read the original verse better, but still I dont translate by my ownself as if Im an expert by default.

First, can you post a link of your Quran's translated verse. Or is it another Cyrus translation?  

Second, Also, I looked at the other verses. Still nothing really proves your point. "It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law)" < this verse is not so hard to understand (assuming you got it right). It is not a nuclear science. All what it says the sun has an orbit, the moon has an orbit. The sun will not collide with the moon going out of its orbit, and the night cannot leave behind the day. All have a system, when to come, when to change, and when to follow. Very simple. Let us not act as expert in Quran by our ownself. We have previous done authenticated work. Use it.

Also as Seko said, get the original verse please, especially when you start translating by your ownself.

Miller, Let us not waste time on assumptions. Your only argument now is that Islam must have copied Zoraostrianism because of similarities in terminologies and concepts.

Remember that we already discussed that it is a high possiblity that Zoraostrianism copied Judaism as Jews fell under the Persian domain and the Zoroastrianism was developed during that time, as I explained earlier. Therefore, the concept of Adam and Paradise...etc is not a copyright of Zoroastrianism. Judaism has the same concepts, does it mean it stole it from Zoroastrianism? Actually, the opposite is more logical for sure.

That is a good point I overlooked. Those 87 chapters cotain what Cyrus called the similarities between Zoroastrianism and Islam. So it was even before he met Salman.  The Madinah suras are mainly dealing with jurisdictions.

So you are left only with only one argument, which is that Islam must have copied Judaism. That is by itself depends on your preception. If you are a Jew, you will say Christianity copied Judaism. Both Christians and Jews claim Islam copied both of them. Bottom line, they are all religions that came from God, one source. One source means common grounds for all three religions.

Here is a new concept you can add to your information Miller. The Quran didn't tell about all the religions has been monothiest and has been revealed from God in the past before they changed. Zoroastrianism can be one of them, or not. who knows.

����� ������ ������ �� ���� ���� �� ����� ���� ����� �� �� ���� �����.

Allah tells his messenger: and we have sent messengers before you, some of whom we have narrated to you, and some of whom we haven't. (Gafer surah, 78)

Why do muslims try to prove the opposite and that the Quran is unique and that it has no outside influence?

I am playing devil's advocate.

well Miller

your CD ROM respond is not proving anything the Quran has 114 chapters and 87 chapters were already written when the prophet was in Makkah and only 27 chapters were written in madina where he and salman met.

and AFAIK salman was a salve at the time the prophet came to madina.

and in salman's biography it says that he was searching for a religion which is true and he was told that there will be a prophet comming from Arabia, and that was the reason form him to come there.

note that muslim belive that in the books of the christans and the jews it says that there will be a prophet comming and gave discribtion of that prophet.

and the article you gave earlier about the religion and the quran from some western point of veiw Didnt mention anything about Salman and Zoroastrians effecting anything.

its clear that from many  Western point of veiw the Prophet learned from Christianity and Judasisim and studied them well and made up one of his own.

others saied that he mixed up these two religion with the ancient religions of Arabia and made up one of his own.

now the latest one Salman alfarisi tought him and gave him the quran! and the basis of these theories are the similarities found between islam and these religions. which were mostly names of places and these names are a common in names in the lanugae and not something new just came up.

note as per the encyclopedias i have Judaisim is older than zoroastrian religion, and the rest of the theories talking about the opposite were mentioned as a side notes not as a main notes.