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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Aryan Invasion Theory
    Posted: 11-Dec-2010 at 08:18

And the only Lauded & Praised dynasty in Rigveda is Bharata clan even other purus are picturised in hostile light when they turn against bharatas.Rigveda is full of the Bharatas sacrifice and oblation to various dieties and also their conquests.

It doesn’t have the memory of a migration from west or a long migration and an invasion after that.It speaks about the forefathers of the tribes and clansmen who lived on the banks of sarasvati indicating a very long presence on the banks of sarasvati.

The river Sarasvati is also mentioned through out the Rigveda indication the familiarity of the composers as well as the Kings and tribes men with it.It speaks about the five Aryan tribes living on the banks of sarasvati

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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2010 at 08:30
All these indicates that Rigveda was composed on the banks of a mighty River Sarasvati.
And all the early acrifical fires are also located on the banks of Sarasvati.
The mentioning of Manusa tirta,Apaga tirta, Ilaspada and Drsadvati indicates itis present days Gaggar river of Haryana.
Geographical Information system has been able to find out the exact location of flow of Sarasvati and it is attesting that it had dried out in 2000BC indicating that Rigveda was composed much before that period ie much before 2000BC say between 4000-3000BC, instead of the earlier estimate of 1200BC.
And Astronomical references of Rigveda indicates a much earlier date for Rigveda ie before 4000BC.

Most of the Indologists had attested finding of Gaggar River as Sarasvati

The identification of the Vedic Sarasvati River with the Ghaggar-Hakra River was accepted by Christian Lassen[1]Max Müller[2]Marc Aurel Stein, C.F. Oldham[3] and Jane Macintosh[4].


Max Muller the father of the Aryan Invasion theory himself has admitted the Gaggar-Hakra river as Sarasvati.

About Sarasvati
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2010 at 12:19
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Originally posted by balochii

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

What I meant to say is Aryans originated on the banks of Sarasvati.They gradually spreaded and occupied to the banks of Indus and other rivers(ie North India and Pakistan)and after the battle of ten kings many of their tribes started migration to other parts of the world
 
there is no proof of this at all, you mean Black (dravdians) who were use to the hot indian weather went in to cold weather of afghanistan and europe and became white/blue eyed caucasian with in a matter few thousand years???LOL Interesting hindu theory LOL
 
This is where your hindu logic fails, you just sound like afrocentric which claim every thing belongs to them. The other way around is much more believable, espeically when even till today many nothern pakistan and some north indians have features of blue eyes/blonde hair.
 
Rig Veda is a indic document, however aryans wrote it when they settled in northern part of the subcontinent, aryans did not effect any part of central india, most of east india east of UP and ofcourse none of areas of south india were effected, all of these areas have nothing to with aryans and I again come to the main point that 80% of indias of today are not aryan
 
the closness of sanskrit with avestan and slavic-satem languages is proof enough that there was proto language somewhere in the middle (central asia perhaps) that linked all these languages
 
Once again you have started to deviate from the topic.
Your are so obsessed by colour prejudice that you are mixing every academics with that.  
Dravidians belong to the Southern part of India.And Dravidians are not black.There are many races who are included in Dravidian fraternity ie who speak dravidian languages and who lives in Dravidam ie South India.Original inhabitants of South India were the Tamil speaking people and other people who speaks other languages which evolved from Tamil.

Where does South India come into picture here..?
What are you trying to prove..?

Please dont workout your hatred for darkskinned people in such forums

North Indians speak indo-Aryan languages and they also belong to various races.
Europe was not empty during the aryan migration they had resident populations and there are proofs for the same and the change in material culture ,language,place & river names and genetics after the indo-europeans came are well attested.

But it is not in Indias case.There is no proof for existance of place and river names in any other language other than sanskrit.
And genetics and Archaeology is not attesting any migration/invasion.


Archaeology about the Aryan invasion theory 




And there is every proof for what I am saying here.

If you want to know more it will be better to refer to the latest debate going on in this subject between academic Indologists.
You are just confusing by including racial concepts in this.
There are many races of people in different parts of India.
There are people with white ,wheatish,Yellow and dark skins in India.
People belongingto different races had migrated to south india from North at different times.There had happened many attested migrations from gangetic banks to whole of South India and each tribes keeps seperate accounts of their migrational history.
There also exists resident population of South India who might be genetically dfferent from the migrants.
If you have time and heart please go through this report
But if you link the whole theory with races you will only confuse.

Sanskrit is the oldest indo-european language,this is attested by all linguists and so it is closest to the Proto indo european.And there is a kentum language identified in northermn Uttarakhand ie Bangani.This is believed to be the Proto-Indo European
And about linguistics


 
the fact is most indians are dark dravdians, other then R1a1 and,why dont europeans have all the other indian haplogroups if indians migrated to europe?
 
 


Edited by balochii - 11-Dec-2010 at 12:40
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2010 at 12:23
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Originally posted by balochii

Elephants existed in the north/punjab area as recently as porus/alexander battle, he used elephants to fight alexander, this is a fact which is recorded
 
about lions, the only lions remaining today in south asia exist in Gujarat state of india which borders pakistan, they dont exist in east india places like bihar/bengal, so considering the location today is so close to pakistan, lions must have existed in pakistan very recently maybe until few thousands years ago. infact if i am not mistaking, mughals, sikhs, and rajputs were famous for hunting lions in punjab/sindh/rajhistan area, just go research, so they must have existed there until very recently

No...
Porus Alexander battle had battle elephants ie tamed ones brought for battles not wild ones 

Wild elephants are found only in Tropical rainforests and pakistan,punjab and even haryana is not an elephant habitat.

And for your information Girnar or the Gir forest is not on Gujarat -Pakistan border,it is in Saurastra.It is seperated from pakistan by sea.And no data about Mughals,Rajputs and sikhs hunting from "Punjab,Sindh and Rajastan" are till date available.
 
lol, so even if you what you are saying it true, dont you think aryans could have done the same as porus, by bringing elephants from wild places? oh and the fact is, elephant have existed in northern part of south asia for very very long time, they home might in the jungles but they were brought to the north thousands of years ago be people.
 
Gir Forest is still in Gujarat and that sea is such a small sea, the area is not very far from pakistan, just go look at a map. it is not in east india as you claim
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2010 at 12:28
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

The above referrences of Rigveda will leave the Bharata dynastic lists as this.There maybe many intervening kings in between who are not mentioned in Rigveda.

1.       Bharata

2. DevavAta

3. Srnjaya

4. VadhryaSva

5. DivodAsa

6. Pratardana

7. Pijavana 


8. a. DevaSravas
    b. SudAs

9. Sahadeva


10. Somaka


Pratardana is referred to as the King of kasi in the Anukramani(composer details) which indicates that Bharatas were the Kings of Kasi in Eastern Uttarpradesh.

Their association with Sarasvati and the fire rituals performed by them on the banks of Sarasvati on Manusa,Apaya(Apaga Tirta) & ilayaspada at Varaprithivya (ie Kurukshetra in Haryana) indicates that their kingdom extended from eastern Uttarpradesh to haryana ie the banks of Sarasvati. 

 
like i said before, it is very much possible that a small group of aryans, ruled over india, just like the mughals, who were very small in number, yet managed to rule over the dravdian indian population, in a same way small groups of aryans of central asia could have ruled over all of these parts of india including UP. History is full of fact how so many small tribes from central asia ruled over many parts of dravdian india many many times, Aryans did the exact same thing. Again no way aryans were of indian origin. Indians can not turn in to white people with blue eyes/blonde hair with in a matter of few thousand years, its a hindu nationalistic joke LOL
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2010 at 12:33
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

All these indicates that Rigveda was composed on the banks of a mighty River Sarasvati.
And all the early acrifical fires are also located on the banks of Sarasvati.
The mentioning of Manusa tirta,Apaga tirta, Ilaspada and Drsadvati indicates itis present days Gaggar river of Haryana.
Geographical Information system has been able to find out the exact location of flow of Sarasvati and it is attesting that it had dried out in 2000BC indicating that Rigveda was composed much before that period ie much before 2000BC say between 4000-3000BC, instead of the earlier estimate of 1200BC.
And Astronomical references of Rigveda indicates a much earlier date for Rigveda ie before 4000BC.

Most of the Indologists had attested finding of Gaggar River as Sarasvati

The identification of the Vedic Sarasvati River with the Ghaggar-Hakra River was accepted by Christian Lassen[1]Max Müller[2]Marc Aurel Stein, C.F. Oldham[3] and Jane Macintosh[4].


Max Muller the father of the Aryan Invasion theory himself has admitted the Gaggar-Hakra river as Sarasvati.

About Sarasvati
 
it doesn't matter where it was composed, i already gave you the geography, that fact of the matter again you think dark dravidians indians called themselves aryans and they composed the whole rig veda and invented the whole indo european languages and then went in to europe and became white people with in a matter few thousands yearsLOL
 
History is not a joke, all indians, especially look at UP/Bihar area, 99% of the people there are dark dravidians who look like south indians, how can they become europeans with in a matter of few thousands yearsLOL its  joke
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2010 at 23:38
Originally posted by balochii

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Originally posted by balochii

Elephants existed in the north/punjab area as recently as porus/alexander battle, he used elephants to fight alexander, this is a fact which is recorded
 
about lions, the only lions remaining today in south asia exist in Gujarat state of india which borders pakistan, they dont exist in east india places like bihar/bengal, so considering the location today is so close to pakistan, lions must have existed in pakistan very recently maybe until few thousands years ago. infact if i am not mistaking, mughals, sikhs, and rajputs were famous for hunting lions in punjab/sindh/rajhistan area, just go research, so they must have existed there until very recently

No...
Porus Alexander battle had battle elephants ie tamed ones brought for battles not wild ones 

Wild elephants are found only in Tropical rainforests and pakistan,punjab and even haryana is not an elephant habitat.

And for your information Girnar or the Gir forest is not on Gujarat -Pakistan border,it is in Saurastra.It is seperated from pakistan by sea.And no data about Mughals,Rajputs and sikhs hunting from "Punjab,Sindh and Rajastan" are till date available.
 
lol, so even if you what you are saying it true, dont you think aryans could have done the same as porus, by bringing elephants from wild places? oh and the fact is, elephant have existed in northern part of south asia for very very long time, they home might in the jungles but they were brought to the north thousands of years ago be people.
 
Gir Forest is still in Gujarat and that sea is such a small sea, the area is not very far from pakistan, just go look at a map. it is not in east india as you claim
Then why they are mentioning about wild elephants..?
And if you say pakistan has wild elephants..provide proofs..

Lions are not good swimmers.And they were not at all known to be present in Pakistan..
Are saying that lions swam to pakistan to show their presenceLOL
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2010 at 23:49
Originally posted by balochii

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

All these indicates that Rigveda was composed on the banks of a mighty River Sarasvati.
And all the early acrifical fires are also located on the banks of Sarasvati.
The mentioning of Manusa tirta,Apaga tirta, Ilaspada and Drsadvati indicates itis present days Gaggar river of Haryana.
Geographical Information system has been able to find out the exact location of flow of Sarasvati and it is attesting that it had dried out in 2000BC indicating that Rigveda was composed much before that period ie much before 2000BC say between 4000-3000BC, instead of the earlier estimate of 1200BC.
And Astronomical references of Rigveda indicates a much earlier date for Rigveda ie before 4000BC.

Most of the Indologists had attested finding of Gaggar River as Sarasvati

The identification of the Vedic Sarasvati River with the Ghaggar-Hakra River was accepted by Christian Lassen[1]Max Müller[2]Marc Aurel Stein, C.F. Oldham[3] and Jane Macintosh[4].


Max Muller the father of the Aryan Invasion theory himself has admitted the Gaggar-Hakra river as Sarasvati.

About Sarasvati
 
it doesn't matter where it was composed, i already gave you the geography, that fact of the matter again you think dark dravidians indians called themselves aryans and they composed the whole rig veda and invented the whole indo european languages and then went in to europe and became white people with in a matter few thousands yearsLOL
 
History is not a joke, all indians, especially look at UP/Bihar area, 99% of the people there are dark dravidians who look like south indians, how can they become europeans with in a matter of few thousands yearsLOL its  joke

It always matter when and where a work is composed to assess it.
What geography did you give..
Infact the link you provided itself is speaking of an uttarpradesh(Kasi) origin & west ward spread of Bharatas.
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2010 at 23:50


http://voi.org/books/rig/ch4.htm

The same link you posted is mentioning as below

II.A. The Westward Expansion in the Bharata Period

The graph of the rivers clearly shows that there was a westward expansion of the Vedic Aryans from the time of SudAs onwards.

In the Early period, right from pre-Rigvedic times to the time of SudAs, the Vedic Aryans were settled in the area to the east of the Punjab: MaNDala VI knows of no river to the west of the SarasvatI.

However, in the MaNDalas and upa-maNDalas following MaNDala VI, we find a steady movement westwards:

a. MaNDala III refers to the first two rivers of the Punjab from the east: the SutudrI and the VipAS.

b. MaNDala VII refers to the next two rivers of the Punjab from the east: the ParuSNI and AsiknI.

c. The middle upa-maNDalas of MaNDala I contain the first reference to the Indus, but none to the rivers west of the Indus.

d. MaNDala IV contains the first references to rivers west of the Indus.

If the case for the westward expansion is strong enough even merely from the evidence of thenames of the rivers, it becomes unimpeachable when we examine the context in which these names appear in the hymns:

1. The SutudrI and VipAS are not referred to in a casual vein. They are referred to in a special context: hymn III.33 is a special ode to these two rivers by ViSvAmitra in commemoration of a historical movement of the warrior bands of the Bharatas led by SudAs and himself, across the billowing waters of these rivers.

What is important is that this hymn is characterized by the Western scholars themselves as a historical hymn commemorating the migratory movement of the Vedic Aryans across the Punjab.,

But the Western scholars depict it as a movement from the west to the east: Griffith calls the hymn “a relic of the traditions of the Aryans regarding their progress eastward in the land of the Five Rivers”.

However, an examination of the facts leaves no doubt that the direction of this historical movement was from the east to the west: the very distribution of the river-names in the Rigveda, as apparent from our graph of the rivers, makes this clear.

But there is more specific evidence within the hymns to show that this movement was from the east to the west:

SudAs is a descendant of DivodAsa (VII.18.25), DivodAsa is a descendant of SRnjaya (VI.47.22 and Griffith’s footnotes to it) and SRnjaya is a descendant of DevavAta (IV.15.4): SudAs is therefore clearly a remote descendant of DevavAta.

DevavAta established the sacrificial fire on the banks of the ApayA between the SarasvatI and the DRSadvatI (III.23.3-4) The SarasvatI is to the east of the VipAS and SutudrI, and the ApayA and DRSadvatI are even further east. No ancestor of SudAs is associated with any river to the west of the SarasvatI.

The historical movement of the Vedic Aryans across the SutudrI and the VipAS, at the time of SudAs, can only be a westward movement.

2. The ParuSNI and AsiknI, also, are not referred to in a casual vein: they also are referred to in a special context.  The context is a major battle fought on the ParuSNI by the Bharatas under SudAs and VasiSTha (who replaced ViSvAmitra as the priest of SudAs).

The direction of the movement is crystal clear in this case as well: SudAs with his earlier priest ViSvAmitra is associated with the SutudrI and VipAS, and with his later priest VasiSTha is associated with the ParuSNI which is to the west of the two other rivers.

But there is more specific evidence in MaNDala VII about the direction of movement in this battle, which is the subject of various references throughout the MaNDala:

a. The battle is fought on the ParuSNI and the enemies of SudAs (who is referred to here as the PUru) are described in VII.5.3 as the people of the AsiknI. The AsiknI is to the west of the ParuSNI hence it is clear that the enemies of SudAs are fighting from the west of the ParuSNI while SudAs is fighting from the east.

Curiously, Griffith mistranslates the name of the river AsiknI as “dark-hued”, thereby killing two birds with one stone: the people of the AsiknI become “the dark-hued races”, thereby wiping out the sense of direction inherent in the reference, while at the same time introducing the racial motif

b. In VII.83.1, two of the tribes fighting against SudAs, the PRthus and the ParSus, are described as marching eastwards (prAcA) towards him.

Griffith again mistranslates the names of the tribes as “armed with broad axes” and the word prAcA as “forward”.

c. VII.6.5 refers indirectly to this battle by talking of the defeat of the tribes of Nahus (i.e. the tribes of the Anus and Druhyus who fought against SudAs) as follows: “Far, far away hath Agni chased the Dasyus, and, in the east, hath turned the godless westward”.  SudAs is therefore clearly pressing forward from the east.

3. The first references to the Indus are in the middle upa-maNDalas (I.83.1) and in MaNDala IV (IV.30.12; 54.6; 55.3). There is, perhaps, a westward movement indicated even in the very identity of the composers of the hymns which contain these references: I.83 is composed by Gotama RAhUgaNa who does not refer to any river west of the Indus, while the references in MaNDala IV are by his descendants, the VAmadeva Gautamas, who also refer to two rivers to the west of the Indus (IV.18.8; 30.18).

Thus, we have a clear picture of the westward movement of the Vedic Aryans from their homeland in the east of the SarasvatI to the area to the west of the Indus, towards the end of the Early Period of the Rigveda: IV.30.18 refers to what is clearly the westermnost point in this movement, a battle fought in southern Afghanistan “on yonder side of Sarayu”.

II. B. The Evidence of Some Key Rivers:

The key rivers in the Rigveda are: 
a. The Indus to the west of the Five Rivers of the Punjab.

b. The SarasvatI to the east of the Five Rivers of the Punjab.

c. The GaNgA and YamunA, the easternmost rivers named in the Rigveda.

The evidence of these key rivers is extremely significant:

1. The Indus and the SarasvatI:

The word Sindhu in the Rigveda primarily means “river” or even “sea”; it is only secondarily a name of the Indus river: thus Saptasindhava can mean “seven rivers” but not “seven Induses”.

The relative insignificance of the Indus in the Rigveda is demonstrated by the fact that the Indus is not mentioned even once in the three oldest MaNDalas of the Rigveda.

Since the word Sindhu, in its meaning of “river”, occurs frequently throughout the Rigveda, scholars are able to juggle with the word, often mistranslating the word Sindhu as “the Indus” even when it means “river”.

However, even this sophistry is not possible in the case of the three oldest MaNDalas (VI, III and VII): the word Sindhu, except in eight verses, occurs only in the plural, and can be translated only as “rivers”.

In seven of the eight references, in which the word occurs in the singular, it clearly refers to some other “river” which is specified within the context of the reference itself: 
a. III.33.3, 5; 53.9: VipAS. 
b. VII.18.5: ParuSNI. 
c. VII.33.3: YamunA. 
d. VII.36.6; 95.1: SarasvatI.

In the eighth reference (VII.87.6) the word means “sea”: the verse talks of the sun setting in the sea.

In sharp contrast, the SarasvatI is referred to many times in the three oldest MaNDalas.  In fact, there are three whole hymns dedicated to it in these MaNDalas: VI.61; VII.95, 96.

All in all, the SarasvatI is referred to in nine MaNDalas out of ten in the Rigveda (i.e. in all except MaNDala IV, which represents the westernmost thrust in the westward movement of the Vedic Aryans).  The Indus is referred to in only six MaNDalas (I, IV, V, VIII, IX, X); and in three of these (V, IX, X), the references to the SarasvatI far outnumber the references to the Indus.

It is only in the latest parts of the Rigveda that the Indus overshadows the SarasvatI:

a. In MaNDala VIII, the references to the Indus outnumber the references to the SarasvatI (by six verses to four).

b. In the general and late upa-maNDalas of MaNDala I, the Indus, but not the SarasvatI, is enumerated with other deities in the refrain of the Kutsas which forms the last verse of nineteen out of their twenty-one hymns.

c. In MaNDala X, although there are more references to the SarasvatI, it is the Indus, and not the SarasvatI, which is the main river lauded in the nadIstuti (X.75), the hynm in Praise of the Rivers.

The SarasvatI is so important in the whole of the Rigveda that it is worshipped as one of the Three Great Goddesses in the AprI-sUktas of all the ten families of composers (being named in nine of them and implied in the tenth).  The Indus finds no place in these AprI-sUktas.

The contrast between the overwhelming importance of the SarasvatI and the relative unimportance of the Indus is so striking, and so incongruous with the theory of an Aryan invasion from the northwest, that many scholars resort to desperate explanations to account for it: Griffith, in his footnote to VI.61.2, suggests that perhaps “SarasvatI is also another name of Sindhu or the Indus”.

2. The Eastern Rivers

The GaNgA and the YamunA are the two easternmost rivers named in the Rigveda.  One or the other of these two rivers (either by these names, or by their other names, JahnAvI and AMSumatI respectively) is named in seven of the ten MaNDalas of the Rigveda, including the three oldest MaNDalas (VI, III and VII).

By contrast, the Indus and its western tributaries, as we saw, are named in only six MaNDalas, which do not include the three oldest MaNDalas of the Rigveda.

But even more significant than these bare statistics is the particular nature of the four references to the GaNgA, the easternmost river of them all:

a. The nadIstuti begins its enumeration of the rivers with the GaNgA and moves westwards.

Whether this circumstance in itself is a significant one or not is debatable; but while many scholars, without necessarily having arrived at any specific ideas about Rigvedic chronology or geography, find it important, certain others seek to deflect its importance, and even to dismiss the importance of the GaNgA itself in the Rigveda:

Griffith, in his footnote to X.75.5, takes pains to suggest that “the poet addresses first the most distant rivers. GaNgA: the Ganges is mentioned, indirectly, in only one other verse of the Rgveda, and even there, the word is said by some to be the name of a woman.  See VI.45.3l.”

b. The reference in VI.45.31 is definitely significant: the composer compares the height of a patron’s generosity to the height of the wide bushes on the banks of the GaNgA.

This makes it clear that even in the oldest MaNDala in the Rigveda, the GaNgA is a familiar geographical landmark, whose features conjure up images which are very much a part of traditional idiomatic expression.

c. The reference in III.58.6. is infinitely more significant.  Griffith translates the verse as follows: “Ancient your home, auspicious is your friendship: Heroes, your wealth is with the house of Jahnu.”

Here, not only does Griffith mistranslate JahnAvI as “the house of Jahnu”, he compounds it with a further misinterpretation of the grammatical form:

JahnAvyAm is clearly “on (the banks of) the JahnAvI” on the lines of similar translations by Griffith himself in respect of other rivers: ParuSNyAm (V.52.9: on the banks of the ParuSNI), YamunAyAm(V.52.17: on the banks of the YamunA), DRSadvatyAm ApayAyAm SarasvatyAm (III.23.4: on the banks of the DRSadvatI, ApayA and SarasvatI).

The correct translation of III.58.6, addressed to the ASvins, is: “Your ancient home, your auspicious friendship, O Heroes, your wealth is on (the banks of the JahnAvI.”

What is noteworthy is that the phrase PurANamokah “ancient home” is used in the second oldest MaNDala in the Rigveda, in reference to the banks of the GaNgA.

d. The reference in I.116.19 associates the JahnAvI with BharadvAja, DivodAsa and the Gangetic dolphin (all of whom are referred to in the earlier verse I.116.18). It is clear, therefore, that the river is specially associated with the oldest period of the Rigveda, the period of MaNDala VI (which is also the only place, outside the nadIstuti, where the GaNgA is referred to by that name).

The evidence of the rivers in the Rigveda is therefore unanimous in identifying the area to the east of the SarasvatI as the original homeland of the Vedic Aryans. 
  

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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2010 at 23:57
Originally posted by balochii

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

The above referrences of Rigveda will leave the Bharata dynastic lists as this.There maybe many intervening kings in between who are not mentioned in Rigveda.

1.       Bharata

2. DevavAta

3. Srnjaya

4. VadhryaSva

5. DivodAsa

6. Pratardana

7. Pijavana 


8. a. DevaSravas
    b. SudAs

9. Sahadeva


10. Somaka


Pratardana is referred to as the King of kasi in the Anukramani(composer details) which indicates that Bharatas were the Kings of Kasi in Eastern Uttarpradesh.

Their association with Sarasvati and the fire rituals performed by them on the banks of Sarasvati on Manusa,Apaya(Apaga Tirta) & ilayaspada at Varaprithivya (ie Kurukshetra in Haryana) indicates that their kingdom extended from eastern Uttarpradesh to haryana ie the banks of Sarasvati. 

 
like i said before, it is very much possible that a small group of aryans, ruled over india, just like the mughals, who were very small in number, yet managed to rule over the dravdian indian population, in a same way small groups of aryans of central asia could have ruled over all of these parts of india including UP. History is full of fact how so many small tribes from central asia ruled over many parts of dravdian india many many times, Aryans did the exact same thing. Again no way aryans were of indian origin. Indians can not turn in to white people with blue eyes/blonde hair with in a matter of few thousand years, its a hindu nationalistic joke LOL

Bharata dynasty mentioned here is the core characters of Rigveda.The chronological order of the kings here are attested.4 kings from Akbar to Aurangazeb took 150 years of reign and ten kings of Bharata clan(may be there are other intervening kings unmentioned) might have taken atleast 400 years.And apart from this there are many generations of the other composing rishis(bharatas themselves are among the composers).Rigveda itself might have taken more than a minimum of 4 centuries to get composed, if not more.
There is no account of a long migration or invasion throughout the Rigveda....
And most of the verses speaks about long presence of several generations on the bank of Sarasvati.

If you say that Rigveda was composed by migrants provide proofs instead of repeating yourself...

And also provide some proofs for theblue eye,white skin and blonde hair of Aryans..


Edited by ranjithvnambiar - 13-Dec-2010 at 00:00
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2010 at 00:26
Here are the photos of some dravidians.
I dont know why you call them black
Prithviraj.S.Nair a malayalam actor

Surya ,Tamil Actor

Sridevi,A bollywood actress from South India

Muraleedharan A Congress Politician from Kerala

Kodiyeri Balakrishnan ,Home Minister of Kerala

Karunakaran former Chiefminister of Kerala

J.Jayalalitaa Former Chiefminister of Tamilnadua

Jayaram malayalam actor

Devan malayalam actor


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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2010 at 00:50
^ you think i am a fool? you just posted some actors/models and saying that dravidians look like that?? even most punjabi north indians are not light skinned as that:
 
average dravdians look like these:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by balochii - 13-Dec-2010 at 00:55
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2010 at 00:57
^ most dravdians have the same skin tone as africans from africa, there is no way these people would be aryans, who went out of india and settled in europe. How did they become white/coloured eyes/blonde hair. what a joke man LOL

Edited by balochii - 13-Dec-2010 at 00:57
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2010 at 00:59
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Originally posted by balochii

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Originally posted by balochii

Elephants existed in the north/punjab area as recently as porus/alexander battle, he used elephants to fight alexander, this is a fact which is recorded
 
about lions, the only lions remaining today in south asia exist in Gujarat state of india which borders pakistan, they dont exist in east india places like bihar/bengal, so considering the location today is so close to pakistan, lions must have existed in pakistan very recently maybe until few thousands years ago. infact if i am not mistaking, mughals, sikhs, and rajputs were famous for hunting lions in punjab/sindh/rajhistan area, just go research, so they must have existed there until very recently

No...
Porus Alexander battle had battle elephants ie tamed ones brought for battles not wild ones 

Wild elephants are found only in Tropical rainforests and pakistan,punjab and even haryana is not an elephant habitat.

And for your information Girnar or the Gir forest is not on Gujarat -Pakistan border,it is in Saurastra.It is seperated from pakistan by sea.And no data about Mughals,Rajputs and sikhs hunting from "Punjab,Sindh and Rajastan" are till date available.
 
lol, so even if you what you are saying it true, dont you think aryans could have done the same as porus, by bringing elephants from wild places? oh and the fact is, elephant have existed in northern part of south asia for very very long time, they home might in the jungles but they were brought to the north thousands of years ago be people.
 
Gir Forest is still in Gujarat and that sea is such a small sea, the area is not very far from pakistan, just go look at a map. it is not in east india as you claim
Then why they are mentioning about wild elephants..?
And if you say pakistan has wild elephants..provide proofs..

Lions are not good swimmers.And they were not at all known to be present in Pakistan..
Are saying that lions swam to pakistan to show their presenceLOL
 
firstly, please speak proper english, half of the things your saying, i can't understand. where did i say anything about swimming? that fact is today lions only exist in Gujarat, a bordering state with Pakistan, not bengal/bihar. so it clearly shows lions existed with in the vicinity of pakistan because they still do


Edited by balochii - 13-Dec-2010 at 01:11
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2010 at 01:02
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Originally posted by balochii

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

The above referrences of Rigveda will leave the Bharata dynastic lists as this.There maybe many intervening kings in between who are not mentioned in Rigveda.

1.       Bharata

2. DevavAta

3. Srnjaya

4. VadhryaSva

5. DivodAsa

6. Pratardana

7. Pijavana 


8. a. DevaSravas
    b. SudAs

9. Sahadeva


10. Somaka


Pratardana is referred to as the King of kasi in the Anukramani(composer details) which indicates that Bharatas were the Kings of Kasi in Eastern Uttarpradesh.

Their association with Sarasvati and the fire rituals performed by them on the banks of Sarasvati on Manusa,Apaya(Apaga Tirta) & ilayaspada at Varaprithivya (ie Kurukshetra in Haryana) indicates that their kingdom extended from eastern Uttarpradesh to haryana ie the banks of Sarasvati. 

 
like i said before, it is very much possible that a small group of aryans, ruled over india, just like the mughals, who were very small in number, yet managed to rule over the dravdian indian population, in a same way small groups of aryans of central asia could have ruled over all of these parts of india including UP. History is full of fact how so many small tribes from central asia ruled over many parts of dravdian india many many times, Aryans did the exact same thing. Again no way aryans were of indian origin. Indians can not turn in to white people with blue eyes/blonde hair with in a matter of few thousand years, its a hindu nationalistic joke LOL

Bharata dynasty mentioned here is the core characters of Rigveda.The chronological order of the kings here are attested.4 kings from Akbar to Aurangazeb took 150 years of reign and ten kings of Bharata clan(may be there are other intervening kings unmentioned) might have taken atleast 400 years.And apart from this there are many generations of the other composing rishis(bharatas themselves are among the composers).Rigveda itself might have taken more than a minimum of 4 centuries to get composed, if not more.
There is no account of a long migration or invasion throughout the Rigveda....
And most of the verses speaks about long presence of several generations on the bank of Sarasvati.

If you say that Rigveda was composed by migrants provide proofs instead of repeating yourself...

And also provide some proofs for theblue eye,white skin and blonde hair of Aryans..
 
Bharta was a ruling dynasty, so what? they could be aryans, i never denied that, however these ruling aryans were not of indian orgin, they were ruling over the dravdians of india.
 
even Mughals ruled areas like UP, Bihar, does that make Mughals of Indian origin?? no, they were central asian ruling over dravidian indians
 
 


Edited by balochii - 13-Dec-2010 at 01:12
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2010 at 03:01
Originally posted by balochii

^ you think i am a fool? you just posted some actors/models and saying that dravidians look like that?? even most punjabi north indians are not light skinned as that:
 
average dravdians look like these:
 

I dont think, but you speak like one.
 
Thank you for your compliment.

Thats not an average dravidian thats an average australoid...
 
First of all you have posted the photographs of Tribals and some tamil actors.Ya there are australoid people in South India.But that doesnt mean all south Indians are australoid.

There are a large chunk population of Australoids in South India.
But that doesnt mean that others are not dravidians( they speak dravidian ie malayalam),
and majority of malayalees are not australoid.
or if you say all south Indians are australoid,then prove that , I have given their identity also.
Your concept about the whole dravidians being black is wrong.
There are millions of fair skinned dravidians in South India.
(But they may not belong to the aaustraloid race)
Nair is a community of people who belongs to Kerala ie they are dravidians bjut not australoids.There are 3 million nairs all over India.
Similar are Nambudiris,Majority of Ezhavas,Tulu bunts,Tulu Brahmins Konkanis etc of Kerala & Karnataka.Vaidekis of Andhra,Iyers,Iyengars,Gounders,Mudaliyars of Tamilnadu are also not australoids.So put a hold to dark dravidian theory.
Hemamalini,the old dreamgirl of Bollywood & Kamalhasan are  Iyengars.
Shashi Taroor the Ex-UN under secretary,Shivshanker Menon Indian PM's security advisor.
Parvaty Omanakuttan ex-missworld are all Nairs.
Shilpa Shetty,Sunil Shetty,Aishvarya Rai are Tulu bunts and so on.
South India has different races and dravidian is not a reference to skin colour.



Edited by ranjithvnambiar - 13-Dec-2010 at 07:03
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2010 at 03:17
Originally posted by balochii

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Originally posted by balochii

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Originally posted by balochii

Elephants existed in the north/punjab area as recently as porus/alexander battle, he used elephants to fight alexander, this is a fact which is recorded
 
about lions, the only lions remaining today in south asia exist in Gujarat state of india which borders pakistan, they dont exist in east india places like bihar/bengal, so considering the location today is so close to pakistan, lions must have existed in pakistan very recently maybe until few thousands years ago. infact if i am not mistaking, mughals, sikhs, and rajputs were famous for hunting lions in punjab/sindh/rajhistan area, just go research, so they must have existed there until very recently

No...
Porus Alexander battle had battle elephants ie tamed ones brought for battles not wild ones 

Wild elephants are found only in Tropical rainforests and pakistan,punjab and even haryana is not an elephant habitat.

And for your information Girnar or the Gir forest is not on Gujarat -Pakistan border,it is in Saurastra.It is seperated from pakistan by sea.And no data about Mughals,Rajputs and sikhs hunting from "Punjab,Sindh and Rajastan" are till date available.
 
lol, so even if you what you are saying it true, dont you think aryans could have done the same as porus, by bringing elephants from wild places? oh and the fact is, elephant have existed in northern part of south asia for very very long time, they home might in the jungles but they were brought to the north thousands of years ago be people.
 
Gir Forest is still in Gujarat and that sea is such a small sea, the area is not very far from pakistan, just go look at a map. it is not in east india as you claim
Then why they are mentioning about wild elephants..?
And if you say pakistan has wild elephants..provide proofs..

Lions are not good swimmers.And they were not at all known to be present in Pakistan..
Are saying that lions swam to pakistan to show their presenceLOL
 
firstly, please speak proper english, half of the things your saying, i can't understand. where did i say anything about swimming? that fact is today lions only exist in Gujarat, a bordering state with Pakistan, not bengal/bihar. so it clearly shows lions existed with in the vicinity of pakistan because they still do
If you dont understand english,go and get some tuition and learn it instead of complaining..
You were mentioning about two landscapes divided by ocean.
And pakistan is not a lion habitat, thats it.
And if you say it is, then provide proof
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2010 at 03:19
Originally posted by balochii

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Originally posted by balochii

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

The above referrences of Rigveda will leave the Bharata dynastic lists as this.There maybe many intervening kings in between who are not mentioned in Rigveda.

1.       Bharata

2. DevavAta

3. Srnjaya

4. VadhryaSva

5. DivodAsa

6. Pratardana

7. Pijavana 


8. a. DevaSravas
    b. SudAs

9. Sahadeva


10. Somaka


Pratardana is referred to as the King of kasi in the Anukramani(composer details) which indicates that Bharatas were the Kings of Kasi in Eastern Uttarpradesh.

Their association with Sarasvati and the fire rituals performed by them on the banks of Sarasvati on Manusa,Apaya(Apaga Tirta) & ilayaspada at Varaprithivya (ie Kurukshetra in Haryana) indicates that their kingdom extended from eastern Uttarpradesh to haryana ie the banks of Sarasvati. 

 
like i said before, it is very much possible that a small group of aryans, ruled over india, just like the mughals, who were very small in number, yet managed to rule over the dravdian indian population, in a same way small groups of aryans of central asia could have ruled over all of these parts of india including UP. History is full of fact how so many small tribes from central asia ruled over many parts of dravdian india many many times, Aryans did the exact same thing. Again no way aryans were of indian origin. Indians can not turn in to white people with blue eyes/blonde hair with in a matter of few thousand years, its a hindu nationalistic joke LOL

Bharata dynasty mentioned here is the core characters of Rigveda.The chronological order of the kings here are attested.4 kings from Akbar to Aurangazeb took 150 years of reign and ten kings of Bharata clan(may be there are other intervening kings unmentioned) might have taken atleast 400 years.And apart from this there are many generations of the other composing rishis(bharatas themselves are among the composers).Rigveda itself might have taken more than a minimum of 4 centuries to get composed, if not more.
There is no account of a long migration or invasion throughout the Rigveda....
And most of the verses speaks about long presence of several generations on the bank of Sarasvati.

If you say that Rigveda was composed by migrants provide proofs instead of repeating yourself...

And also provide some proofs for theblue eye,white skin and blonde hair of Aryans..
 
Bharta was a ruling dynasty, so what? they could be aryans, i never denied that, however these ruling aryans were not of indian orgin, they were ruling over the dravdians of india.
 
even Mughals ruled areas like UP, Bihar, does that make Mughals of Indian origin?? no, they were central asian ruling over dravidian indians
 
 

Ya Bharata was a ruling dynasty and they were of Kasi.
They were indigenous, ie sons of the land.

There is no proof of any migration of Bharatas.

Or if you are saying they came from outside prove it
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2010 at 07:14
In the above post there are politicians ad ministers too ie Karunakaran,Muraleedharan,Kodiyeri Balakrishnan & J.Jayalalitaa.
And if You have problem with models & film stars, here are some dravidian politicians,beaurocrats ,athletes,singers & others

E.K.Nayanar Former Communist Chiefminister of Kerala


Prakash Padukkone a Former Badmonton player from bangalore

V.S.Acharya Home Minister of Karnataka

B.S.Yeddyurappa Chief minister of Karnataka.

K.S.Chitra a malayalee singer




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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2010 at 07:22
Here are some Famours Dravidians(Malayalees from Kerala)

G.Madhavan Nair the Chief of Indian Space Research Organization is a Malayalee Nair

Arundhati Roy writer and social worker is a Malayalee christian.

Mavila Viswanathan Nair , chief of Union Bank is a Malayalee Nair

E.Sreedharan Chief of Delhi metro is a Malayalee nair

Kris Gopalakrishnan CEO of Infosys is a Malayalee nair

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