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Discovering Byzantium

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Akolouthos View Drop Down
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Discovering Byzantium
    Posted: 24-May-2008 at 16:09
Guys, if you take a step back, I think you'll find that you don't really disagree here.

As Cuauhtemoc has pointed out, the events of 1054 are the culmination of a period of gradually developing strife between East and West. One thing that he mentioned -- and one I hadn't really taken into account in my earlier post -- was the closing of the Byzantine rite churches in Sicily and the subsequent closing of the Latin rite churches in Constantinople. This demonstrates a more serious break than most of the minimalist analyses of this event portray. Thus, the date cannot be ignored. That said, and as you both agree, the Schism itself happened over time, and was finalized in the 1204 sack of Constantinople. You may disagree as to the nature and development of the Roman "primacy", but I think you are in accord on the date and process of the Schism.

One thing about Humbert. While it is true that he was a Cardinal in his own right, at this particular time, and for this particular purpose he was acting as a legate. Thus, while he had authority delegated to him in his own right within the Western Church, for the purposes of the mission to Constantinople his legatine status was the source of his authority. By canonical precedent, this particular authority -- to negotiate in the name of the pope -- expired when the pope died. He maintained his status as Cardinal, and the authority that went with that, but the bishop whom he was representing had expired. His contention would likely have been that he was dispatched to carry out a specific mission, and that he could carry out this mission even after the death of his principle, but according to ancient and medieval canonical precedent this was not so.

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  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2008 at 00:47
Originally posted by es_bih

I am saying that the Patriarchates never accepted even theoretical dominance of the Roman see, but rather saw it as a more promiment see due to St. Peter. All equal and the Roman one most prestigious. That is not exactly a Roman primacy in theoretical terms.

 
It is not my intention to derail such an interesting discussion you guys got goin on here,(and surprisingly this is the first Ive seen of it I believe!) but there are a few misinterpretaions that I see here. Firstly, you are correct, es_bih, when you state that the Eastern churches looked towards Rome with esteem because they held claim not only of St. Peters martrydom, but also that of the St. Pauls. This is clearly written by a number of fathers of the church. However, an "honorable" or "prestigious" see is not one that is constantly looked to when dogmatic clarity is sought after, or when the unity of the church in the mits of schism presents itself as "the order of the day". Historical observation tells us this much. I will concur that the Eastern church, whenever not in a critical situation, or not in dire need of orthodoxy, has not fully accepted the "primacy", at least not as clearly as the West has, precisely because it subsisted in a state of "Church & Empire".
 
God bless,
 
arch.buff


Edited by arch.buff - 30-May-2008 at 00:54
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2009 at 17:26
Perhaps the greatest un told story, and perhaps a hidden reason for the scism is the reported 1054 Supernova, which was reportedly even to be seen during daytime! Historians have for many years believed the Oriental reports as being accurate but were constantly amazed that Occidental scientist apparently left no extant reports at all! If indeed such a site was beheld in 1054 then its appearance must have been considered a God caused event, and the foretelling of some coming disaster! But, again no mention either by the Eastern or Western Christian authorities! So maybe it was just agreed by both sides to keep it quite and seperate from everything else?

Or not?
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2009 at 18:22
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBR_enUS315US315&q=1054+Supernova

The above address is for all sites found with a quick Google Search using the words "1054 Supernova!" Specifically within the above choices are these;

http://medievalhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/mystery_of_the_1054_supernova

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v273/n5665/abs/273728a0.html

So why was the 1054 supernova not reported by Christian or Arabic sources? Note, there seems to have been another supernova seen in 1006 CE! But are there any other theories?

http://books.google.com/books?id=fSvlaZYbcwUC&pg=PT108&lpg=PT108&dq=1054+Supernova+fomenko&source=bl&ots=89qZUEZhNL&sig=IQo8vSYlRjVm_EZEZLQE89ZKr5k&hl=en&ei=7hEbS-HPL9WUtgePoPj2CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/New-Chronology-(Fomenko)

http://astrohist.livejournal.com/

But, whether or not one gives any credence to the works of Fomenko, we are still left with the original question!

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  Quote Christos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2010 at 00:48

 I love Byzantine History. I remember when i was very very young when a friend of my father who has a bookstore gave me as a gift the "Byzantine Empire" of Robert Browining.
 I am interested a lot in the period of the transformation from the latin empire to the Hellenized one.
 I like very much the years of Byzantium apogee till the end of the Komnene.
 But generally i found Byzantium fascinated.
 I was born in 1982 and the Greek system although learn you Byzantine history in your 10 years and then in your 13. Later in the last years of the hight school its not. Hopefully now is on the system of the Greek schools when the children are 16.
 There is also an increase of interest in Greece in Byzantium perhaps as we understant slowly that we may have commons with the Ancient we have also with the Medieval ones.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2010 at 15:32
At the risk of being taken in the wrong sense, I would suggest that the "Byzantines" are or were more Greek than modern Greeks!

I did not say the above to flame anyone or any race, etc., it is merely my view of the situation before and after the Frankish and Spanish, and Italian, and Ottoman dominion, over Greece!,that I write these words!

Greek, as the offical language of Greece, is (in reality) a new invention!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language

"Medieval Greek, also known as Byzantine Greek: the continuation of Koine Greek during Byzantine Greece, up to the demise of the Byzantine Empire in the 15th century. Medieval Greek is a cover term for a whole continuum of different speech and writing styles, ranging from vernacular continuations of spoken Koine that were already approaching Modern Greek in many respects, to highly learned forms imitating classical Attic. Much of the written Greek that was used as the official language of the Byzantine Empire was an eclectic middle-ground variety based on the tradition of written Koine.

Modern Greek: Stemming from Medieval Greek, Modern Greek usages can be traced in the Byzantine period, as early as 11th century. It is the language used by modern Greeks and apart from Standard Modern Greek, there are several dialects of it."

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 07-Apr-2010 at 15:35
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  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2010 at 15:29
What?
"Hellenes are crazy but they have a wise God"
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2010 at 16:44
Well Patrinos! I do not follow the currently accepted view of history!

For me to really reply I would have to respond to you on the "alternative history" section of this site!

You see, as your response shows "What?", that my ideas and your may not well mesh!

For example see this old post!

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Quote Constantine XI
Report Post   Quote Reply Posted: Aug-21-2005 at 00:11
Well I am wondering why the Greek members as a whole take so little interest in Byzantium. Do they not see its history as one of their civilization's most impressive achievements? Has the work of men such as Gibbon really been so powerful that even the Greeks themselves see this era of their history as something to be ignored in favour of the Classical Age of Hellas?

It is this disregard for things Greek but not considered by Greeks as Greek!

Except for inscriptions, which in reality could have been done most any time in the past, there is no evidence that the average person residing in Greece, actually spoke Greek!

There were no "tape recorders" etc.! All anyone really has are the engravings and copies of someone's writings, etc.!

Yes, the average person in Greece today may speak and write in Greek, but "prove" that they did the same in the 13th - 15th century CE, or earlier?


Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 11-Apr-2010 at 18:49
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2010 at 01:55
I would like to know if there was another alternative name for Basil II. Because, to my knowledge, 'Basil', or 'Basileios', was simply the Greek term for 'Emperor'. Correct me if I am wrong.
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  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2010 at 03:00

Originally posted by opuslola

Well Patrinos! I do not follow the currently accepted view of history!

For me to really reply I would have to respond to you on the "alternative history" section of this site!

You see, as your response shows "What?", that my ideas and your may not well mesh!

For example see this old post!

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Quote Constantine XI
Report Post   Quote Reply Posted: Aug-21-2005 at 00:11
Well I am wondering why the Greek members as a whole take so little interest in Byzantium. Do they not see its history as one of their civilization's most impressive achievements? Has the work of men such as Gibbon really been so powerful that even the Greeks themselves see this era of their history as something to be ignored in favour of the Classical Age of Hellas?

It is this disregard for things Greek but not considered by Greeks as Greek!

Except for inscriptions, which in reality could have been done most any time in the past, there is no evidence that the average person residing in Greece, actually spoke Greek!

There were no "tape recorders" etc.! All anyone really has are the engravings and copies of someone's writings, etc.!

Yes, the average person in Greece today may speak and write in Greek, but "prove" that they did the same in the 13th - 15th century CE, or earlier?


Regards,

I can understand why Constantine wrote that. Many Greeks are not interested in our Byzantine history  more because it is in a way  connected with the Church... and those who do not want to admit that ,we like it or not, Greek Church played a very important role in our history don't want to admit  that we are closer to our Byzantine past than to our "Classical".

And maybe because Byzantion, is not so "history" for Greeks... since lots of its main characteristics are very alive today...language, legends, songs, music, love for Polis, etc etc



Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

I would like to know if there was another alternative name for Basil II. Because, to my knowledge, 'Basil', or 'Basileios', was simply the Greek term for 'Emperor'. Correct me if I am wrong.

Basil's name was Vasileios, a very common name in Greece derived from the term "vasileus" meaning king.



Edited by Patrinos - 12-Apr-2010 at 03:05
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2010 at 03:20
Is that so? So, was he named Vasileios from the day he was born?
 
That means, when you want to say 'Emperor Basileios' or "King Basileios' in Greek, it becomes 'Basileios Basileios'? Interesting.
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  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2010 at 05:06
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

Is that so? So, was he named Vasileios from the day he was born?
 
That means, when you want to say 'Emperor Basileios' or "King Basileios' in Greek, it becomes 'Basileios Basileios'? Interesting.

Why do you see it weird? 

Basileios is a common name. And "King Basil" in Greek is "Basileus Basileios".

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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2010 at 02:26

K, let me get this right. So, 'Basileios' with an 'o' is a common guy's name, derived from 'Basileus' with a 'u', which means 'king'. That right?

It does sound a bit, shall I say, unique, in English. It's almost like saying, a certain king's name is King King, or a certain emperor's name is Emperor Emperor.
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2010 at 23:17
If anybody has an answer, I'd like to know, what were the other languages of any significance in Byzantium, besides Greek? Roman, I'd guess, but besides that ...
 
Especially in early to midddle 11th century. The period of Basileius Basileios, or Basil II, like ...
 
Was Persian spoken to any significant extent? I know Byzantines and Persians were arch rivals, but you never know. Many Russians started learning German when Germany was fighting Russia, for instance.


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 30-May-2010 at 23:22
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  Quote Nurica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2010 at 17:29
I was too interested in byzantine history, but I hope I was never blinded by unconditional sympathy or some sort of nationalism or religious nationalism, as others.
 
I can’t see any reason to deplore the fall of this empire, that besides his bloody history (no guilty here) was the important factor of intelectual stagnation in the East.
 
Byzantine elite posessed for a millenium all the pagan science and kept it for no avail other than to pass it to the west directly (when the fall was evident) or before to pass it to islamic civilization and later once again to the western europe, that really used it to rise what we can call "our modernity".
One can answer your question by saying that "Byzantine empire simply was not Rome": it was never a republic and it was never a tolerant society the kind Rome used to be a long time. The byzantine emperors lost their empire in religious disputes with their eastern subjects, by trying to impose them their own orthodox theological view (just let's forget for the moment the persecutions, massacres against pagans greeks!). There was repeted massacres perpetrated by these bigoted byzantine emperors against people of Egypt, Syria and Anatolia, that were arian sect members, or nestorians, or monophysites. All these semites refused to admit the poetic but impossible and ilogical orthodox dogma of three-in-one-god as interpreted by orthodox greeks, that were too much influenced by their pagan and philosophic past, and when islam with his reknown theological sobriety attacked the eastern provinces, the local "byzantine" population did breathe a sigh of relief! Muslims of this time were more interested in booty than conversion of others, so that the poor people of former byzantine provinces exercised for a while their religious convinctions and cult in freedom.
Yes, Gibbons’ history is far from being unbiased, but the facts about Constantin and the emperors that followed is no exageration at all! It is the pure truth, unfortunately!, and having read many books on this subject I can tell you that his is not at all the most eyeopenening history written about the stupidity and cruelty of byzantine suicidal regime.

While it can be argued that islamic civilization was, at least for some centuries or decades, tolerant toward philosophy, other religions or the emerging science, can one say (and put arguments and proofs in support) the same about byzantine regime!?
I'm afraid the answer is simply "no"… All those ready to forget these inconvenient facts, are greek nationalists or just pathetic pious christians...
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  Quote Nurica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2010 at 17:53
<<My lack of interest on Bizantium is based, probably, in a fallacy. The idea that Bizantium didn't contribute to the advance of Science and Technology. Would you some of the Bizantium experts in here prove my prejudice is wrong, please? So, what were the more outstanding advancements in Science and Tech that Bizantium produced. Of course I know thinks like the building of the Hagia Sophia and the development of the "greek" fire canons. However, I am more interested in genious in mathematics, physics and medicine, in inventors and similar secular contributors. So, please show me the way so I also get interested in the topic.>>
 
my dear pinguin, you'll always get as answer to such a question a precious heap of nothing! LOL
One can wonder why all histories of science pass from ancient to islamic and then to western science! Let me give you such an example with Colin Ronan's Cambridge Illustrated History of the World's Science: from greek to chinese, hindu, arab and western: no "byzantine science"!
 
The end of greek science:
 

Le sort de la science grecque

Avec Ptolémée, nous sommes parvenus à la dernière des grandes figures de la science hellénistique et à la fin d'un développement intellectuel étonnant qui, à son origine, était grec. Comme nous l'avons vu, il débuta avec des philosophes qui souhaitaient comprendre le monde physique dans lequel ils vivaient. Naturellement, jamais ils ne se seraient attribué le qualificatif de scientifique - le mot, d'ailleurs, date du XIXe siècle -, mais ils auraient accepté le terme de philosophes de la Nature, du xvne siècle. Cependant, c'était bien de science dont ils s'occupaient ; non pas la science expérimentale orientée vers les mathématiques, qui est aujourd'hui la nôtre, mais néanmoins la science, une tentative de compréhension du monde de l'expérience naturelle sans recours à l'intervention divine. Nous avons retracé son histoire depuis Thaïes jusqu'à ses points culminants au Lycée d'Athènes et à la Bibliothèque et au Musée d'Alexandrie. Elle marque le premier grand effort concerté de l'homme occidental pour comprendre le fonctionnement de la Nature et cette immense réalisation fut reconnue dès l'époque de son apparition. La science romaine ne fit que consolider et confirmer la science grecque, sans y ajouter de contributions originales : les réalisations romaines furent d'un autre type. Aujourd'hui, nous pouvons regarder en arrière et voir en elle les fondements de l'idéal scientifique - la poursuite de la science dégagée de toute entrave d'ordre religieux ou politique -, et la base de notre culture scientifique actuelle. Et pourtant, il s'en est fallu de très peu qu'elle ne nous parvienne que dans une version affreusement mutilée.

 

La science grecque            179

II est certain que la Bibliothèque et le Musée d'Alexandrie poursuivirent leurs activités après l'époque de Ptolé-mée, encore que la recherche originale ait alors dépéri. A l'origine, la Bibliothèque s'était développée selon la réglementation de Ptolémée, qui voulait que tous les livres introduits à Alexandrie y fussent déposés pour être copiés, et elle contenait quelques centaines de milliers de rouleaux de papyrus. On a dit que la collection s'augmenta vers 40 avant J.-C., lorsque Marc Antoine fit don à Cléopâtre des 200 000 rouleaux de la bibliothèque de Pergame, mais, il semble qu'après la mort de Ptolémée, deux siècles plus tard, peu d'ouvrages nouveaux y furent ajoutés. En fait, la collection subira bientôt des dommages dus aux invasions et aux insurrections. En 269 après J-C., la Bibliothèque brûla partiellement lorsque la belle et impitoyable Zénobie, reine de Palmyre, conquit l'Egypte, et elle souffrit encore plus en 415 après J.-C., quand elle fut attaquée par des émeutiers. Il semble que cette émeute fut provoquée, ou du moins tolérée, par Cyrille, l'évêque d'Alexandrie, qui défendait l'orthodoxie contre ceux qu'il considérait comme des chrétiens hérétiques et contre l'enseignement païen. Hypatie, une mathématicienne et philosophe néo-platonicienne qui dirigeait le Musée, fut brutalement assassinée par des moines, tandis qu'une populace enragée faisait brûler la Bibliothèque. Après ces événements, Alexandrie ne retrouva jamais son prestige comme centre d'enseignement et tomba dans l'oubli total après un dernier incendie survenu pendant l'invasion islamique de l'Egypte, en 640 après J.-C. Mais, longtemps avant cette époque, les érudits avaient fui, emportant avec eux de précieux manuscrits. Comme nous le verrons (chapitre 5), c'est en Islam que l'enseignement grec fut préservé jusqu'à ce qu'il soit récupéré par l'Europe du Moyen Age.

 
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  Quote Nurica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2010 at 18:26
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  Quote Nurica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2010 at 18:27
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  Quote Nurica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2010 at 18:50
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2010 at 19:35
If, you do not "photobucket" your asses out of here, then begone, because you have not writen any-thing!

Sorry, but you are new!

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