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Greatest Ottoman Sultan

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Poll Question: Who is the Greatest Ottoman Sultan?
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Winterhaze13 View Drop Down
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  Quote Winterhaze13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greatest Ottoman Sultan
    Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 11:05
Who is the Greatest Ottoman Sultan?
Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes.

-- Voltaire
French author, humanist, rationalist, & satirist (1694 - 1778)
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 11:09

Murat 2 I love him.  ironically, he didnt want all that power. He didnt want become a Patisah, but I  think he is  one of the best patisah ottomans saw.

 



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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 11:50

I hate Sultan Selim Khan's policies and actions. He was a great conquerer but he changed the Empire's fate forever.

My favourite one is Sultan Mehmed II Khan the Conquerer, and the second is his father. They were the ones who made Ottoman Empire a European one.



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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 12:39

On the contrary, Yavuz Sultan Selim provided security for the eastern half of the empire. Not only did he gain territorial expansion at the expense of the Safavids and Mameluks, but he put an end to their schemes of uniting in order to challenge the Ottomans.

By the way, my avatar is a portrait of Selim I



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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 12:42
Suleyman is my favorite.  Not for military skill which is often how people pick their favorite leaders but because he was the "lawgiver" who really strengthened the internal systems of the empire.  My second favorite would probably be Mahmud II who fixed alot of things that were falling apart and destroyed the corrupt Janisaries.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 12:58

Yeah, Mahmut II did the best thing by destroying the Janissary tradition.

Yavuz tortured Turkmens and exiled them, just because they werent Sunnites. Lots of Turkmens were forcefully converted. Yavuz Selim was a religious dictator, and because he became enemies with, Safavids became more stronger and a rival of Ottoman Empire.

There was a saying, a cursin way of saying "God shall make you the vizier of Yavuz.", because he was a vezier hater, he executed more than ten viziers.

But we cant deny he was a perfect conquerer, he heavily defeated the mameluke State and conquered all their lands, he also heavily defeated the Safavids, and he became the ruler of the Islamic World, the Caliph by conquering all the holy lands. But on the other hand, controlling Arabs was more important for him than Turkmens, his own fellow people.

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 16:19
Looking back on history we could feel for those whom have had a rough go at it. Whilst the Ottomans were in danger after the defeat of Ankara in 1402, Uzun Hassan and the the Karahman Beys plus the Kizilbash were seperated kingdoms. Their eyes were on enlarging their own territories. Rivalries created battles for land and Ideology. Turks have fought Turks for generations. Such was the way back then.

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 19:44

 

we had a thread about this sometime ago

anyway i think Orkhan was the best because he was like the co-founder of this empire and he didnt kill his brother after he became Begh.

the worse will be Salim who was no different from Timurlenk

 

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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2005 at 02:25

Suleyman I "The Magnificent was the greatest sultan (lawgiver).

Capture Rhods,Belgrade,Mesopotamia,Alegria.,At the batlle of Mohacs he destroyed Hungarian army.

"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2005 at 02:56

Selim is not timurlenk, this is too much for him. Oguzoglu because  of your religious sect,you have no right to blame someone. Why dont you also say, this turkmens rebelled,  they joined with iran? It was them who attacked turks before.

Azimuth why do you think  selim was like timurlenk?

 

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2005 at 03:20

 

i think they have similar mentality,

plus Salim killed his brothers and his father to get to the throne and he had one son only and sent him to be a governor far from istanbul.

he was paranoid, and add to all that he killed the last Abbasids Caliph egypt and assumed that he is the Caliph and took Prophet's belongings ( the one in Top Kapi Saray now) from the Caliph in Egypt.

i dont see that was that neccesary.

and timur was similar  both of them were trusting nobody and loved themselfs alot.

 

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2005 at 03:37

he didnt killed his father(He took throne  without killing) and I dont think killing brother is uncommon for ottomans.(Specially after his brothers rebelled)

 he had one son only and sent him to be a governor far from istanbul.

this  is not uncommon for ottomans to, aim of this  is to make new patisah more experienced.  IIRC he sent his son to trabzon, where he ruled before. When this tradition stoped,  we  saw more disqualified patisahs.

he was paranoid, and add to all that he killed the last Abbasids Caliph egypt and assumed that he is the Caliph and took Prophet's belongings ( the one in Top Kapi Saray now) from the Caliph in Egypt.

Sultan Selim Han, 1516 Austosundan beri yannda bulunan son Abbs Halifesi, nc Abdlazz el-Mtevekkil-al-Allah Muhammedin rzs, Khireden Osmanl merkezine gnderilen Cmil-Ezher Medresesi limleri ve stanbuldaki limlerin meclisinde ittifakla varlan kararla, Osmanl pdihlarna Sultanlk unvn ile berber, slm leminin etrfnda topland Hilfet makm da verildi.

Acording to my  source, he didnt killed last Abbasids Caliph , He just get name of caliph and I dont  see much different If Prophet's belongings, stay at kahire or Istanbul.

 

 

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  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2005 at 05:32

Greatest:Mehmed II

My Favourite:Mahmud II

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2005 at 07:51

Mortaza,

My believs doesnt shape my political/historical opinions unlike the %34 of my country. I am not a very religious person at all. But it's right that Yavuz Selim had faulty actions against Turkmens.

The Ottomans had accepted Sunni Islam in the 13th century as a means to unifying their empire, and later proclaimed themselves its defenders against the Safavid Shia state and related heretical sects. This created a gap between the Sunni Ottoman ruling elite and the Alevi Anatolian population. Anatolia became a battlefield between Safavids and Ottomans, each determined to include it in their Empire. Ismail instigated a series of revolts culminating in a general Anatolian uprising against the Ottomans, whose Sultan Bayezid mounted a major expedition 1502-1503 which pushed the Safavids and many of their Turkmen followers into Iran. His successor, Sultan Selim I "The Grim", launched a vigorous campaign into eastern Anatolia, utilising a religious edict condemning Alevis as apostates to massacre many. In the summer of 1514 Selim launched another offensive and won the major battle of Chaldiran on the eastern side of the Euphrates, convincing the Safavids to avoid open conflict with the Ottomans for the next century, and enabling him to overcome the last independent Turkmen dynasties in eastern Anatolia in 1515-1517.

Suleyman the magnificent also ruthlessly suppressed Safavid supporters in eastern Anatolia leading three campaigns into northwest Iran. Finally in 1555 the peace of Amasya recognised Ottoman rule over Iraq and Eastern Anatolia and Iranian rule over Azerbaijan and Caucasia.

The Kizilbash in Anatolia were now militarily, politically and religiously separated from their source in Iran, retreated to isolated rural areas and turned inward, developing their unique structures and doctrines. Following the severe persecution and massacres by the Ottomans which went on into the 18th century, Alevis went underground using taqiya, religious dissimulation permitted by all Shi`a groups, to conceal their faith (pretending to be Sunnis) and survive in a hostile environment. Kizilbash and Bektashis shared common religious beliefs and practices becoming intermingled as Alevis in spite of many local variations. Isolated from both the Sunni Ottomans and the Twelver Shi`a Safavids, Alevis developed traditions, practices, and doctrines by the early 17th century which marked them as a closed autonomous religious community. As a result of the immense pressures to conform to Sunni Islam, Alevis developed a tradition of opposition to all forms of external religion.

But on the other hand, Ottoman Empire was built on the philosophies of Bektashi, because as you know, Osman Begh and his family was also Turkmens, from Kayi of Oguz. Until the reign of Selim Khan, the Bektashi and Alevi shaped all the actions of the Empire, and we can easily say they were the ones who created the Ottoman identity.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2005 at 07:53

Rural Alevis were marginalised and discriminated against in the Ottoman Empire, although the official Bektashiya order enjoyed a privileged role through its close association with the Janissary professional military corps. In 1826 Sultan Mahmud II massacred the Janissaries and suppressed the Bektashi order. Yet Bektashi secret circles remained extremely active, Bektashis becoming progressive, anticlerical, and liberal, viewed suspiciously by the authorities and cooperating with others hostile to the establishment such as Freemasons and Young Turks. Until 1925 it was estimated that 10 to 20 percent of Turkey's adult male population were still members of the Bektashiya.

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2005 at 08:55
Originally posted by Mortaza

he didnt killed his father(He took throne  without killing) and I dont think killing brother is uncommon for ottomans.(Specially after his brothers rebelled)

 he had one son only and sent him to be a governor far from istanbul.

this  is not uncommon for ottomans to, aim of this  is to make new patisah more experienced.  IIRC he sent his son to trabzon, where he ruled before. When this tradition stoped,  we  saw more disqualified patisahs.

he was paranoid, and add to all that he killed the last Abbasids Caliph egypt and assumed that he is the Caliph and took Prophet's belongings ( the one in Top Kapi Saray now) from the Caliph in Egypt.

Sultan Selim Han, 1516 Austosundan beri yannda bulunan son Abbs Halifesi, nc Abdlazz el-Mtevekkil-al-Allah Muhammedin rzs, Khireden Osmanl merkezine gnderilen Cmil-Ezher Medresesi limleri ve stanbuldaki limlerin meclisinde ittifakla varlan kararla, Osmanl pdihlarna Sultanlk unvn ile berber, slm leminin etrfnda topland Hilfet makm da verildi.

Acording to my  source, he didnt killed last Abbasids Caliph , He just get name of caliph and I dont  see much different If Prophet's belongings, stay at kahire or Istanbul.

well i dont know what are your sources but AFAIK he forced his father to step down and then killed him, and he killed the last Abbasidds Caliph who by the way wasn't holding any political power or anything.

and i think Prophet's belongings are not supposed to be in Cairo nither in Stanbul they belong to Madina.

 

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2005 at 09:01

well, he forced his father from throne, but he didnt killed him. This is a known fact in Turkey.

he killed the last Abbasidds Calip.

I look some source to but cant find  it, do you have a link?

and i think Prophet's belongings are not supposed to be in Cairo nither in Stanbul they belong to Madina.

Well, Islam and prophet is not only belong you.He  is also our prophet.

But If vahabies show them  enough respect(I have  some doubt about this), Yes they should be sent Madina too.(Time to time, still dont ready to left them)

 

 

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2005 at 09:14

 

i dont know is this a common Turkish thing to consider everything Arabs say is about Arabs?

The prophet lived and died in that Area so i think his sowrds and everything else which used to be his are supposed to be in his house in Medina inside his Mosque  Not in a museum.

 

 

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2005 at 09:30

Be calm,I said we should  sent them to medina, but will vahabis respect them?

And, They are not just thing related with The prophet both other people, for  exp: Sword of Ali.

 



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  Quote Kenaney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2005 at 12:37
Yes azimuth Murtaza has right, if we sended those worthfull things to his place, should the vahabbees respect it? They where graving tunnel under prophet Muhammed s a s grave!!!! Allready forgotten huh?
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