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Belisarius
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Topic: The Iberian Peninsula Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 20:15 |
I know Spanish is a Romance language, but what are the Spaniards
ethnically? Are they considered Caucasian, Meditteranean, or something
else? As for genetic makeup, are they directly descended from the
ancient Iberians with a slight bit of Roman, or is there another large
ethnicity mixed in them?
For that matter, what about the Portuguese?
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Maju
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Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 15:21 |
Apart of Iberia being a multiethnic puzzle, the question for me is "who considers Spaniards what?"
On the detail, Mediterranean is the common expression for a type of Caucasian, but, anyhow, what is Caucasian?
Being out of town right now, I can't search my favorite links that could shed some extra light here... but basically Iberians seem to be descendant of
- a base of native "Magdalenians", which would still make up the greater part of the genome, as in other regions of Europe, specially Western Europe
- a layer of Mediterraneans (coming through the Adriatic and Thyrrenian coasts) that arrived in the early Neolithic and settled mostly in the east and south
- another layer of already very mixed IE-speakers (Celts) that arrived in the late Bronze Age
- further layers of other IE-speakers and some Semitic-speakers as well, that arrived in rather small doses in different times of proto-History and History: Phoenician and Greek colonists in some enclaves, peoples of the Roman Empire, some Germanic raiders (Sueves, Goths, Vikings) and some Arab-speakers too...
Still, all European Genetic maps take apart the Basque population, which is obviously extremely pure in its "aboriginity" and is very convenient for contrasting with other more mixed groups, and most also make a regional division of the rest Spain, because it is not a particularly homogeneous region.
Generally speaking Iberia seems very close to Southern France (Basques to Gascons and Catalonians to Occitanians specially, but this is very concordant with the History we know - and with the fact of southern "Gaul" not being as "gaulish" as some would want it to be, nor France so ethnically homogenous as some would like it either). But Spaniards are many nations as well... even if genetically more homogeneous than French.
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Zagros
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Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 15:33 |
You missed the Alans that settled in Spain.
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Maju
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Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 15:46 |
Originally posted by Zagros Purya
You missed the Alans that settled in Spain. |
Did they settle at all? Or were they exterminated by Vandals or Visigoths? Anyhow they are included under the epigraphe of "some Germanic tribes"... I have no idea if they were Germanic or not but it doesn't really matter much being such a tiny demographic aportation... even Visigoths and Arabs can easily be ignored in that demographic history... possibly "Franks" that came during the Middle ages as colonists or pilgrims made a larger proportion than anything that could come since the Celtic invasions... but what were those "Franks"?... surely southern Frenchmen undistinguishable from northern Spaniards.
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Zagros
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Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 16:12 |
Maybe they were exterminated because they formed pretty much the ruling class.
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Belisarius
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Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 17:35 |
I believe that the Alans were a Turkic tribe of some sort.
What about the Spanish language? If you strip away the Latin
influences, what would the base language be? Something related to
Celtic or Germanic?
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Zagros
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Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 19:07 |
LOl, no the Alans were an Iranic tribe of a Sarmatian sort. Their descendants are modern day Ossetians
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Belisarius
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Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 21:28 |
Ah, I see, though there are many here that would claim that the Sarmatians were Turkic. Oh well. None of my business.
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Zagros
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Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 21:45 |
Well you could just do a little research and reach your own conclusion.
I can give u a hand:
University of Columbia sponsored Encyclopedia Iranica, all sources cited: Alans:
http://www.iranica.com/articles/search/searchpdf.isc?ReqStrP DFPath=/home1/iranica/articles/v1_articles/alans&OptStrL ogFile=/home/iranica/public_html/logs/pdfdownload.html
I would trust the word of world class academia over anything I read here or from a nationalist article written by a man with a PhD in Engineering.
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Belisarius
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Posted: 30-Jul-2005 at 00:13 |
Looks like a nice source. Thanks.
You will have to forgive me, I usually do my own research but times have been trying lately.
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Maju
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Posted: 30-Jul-2005 at 05:56 |
Originally posted by Belisarius
What about the Spanish language? If you strip away the Latin influences, what would the base language be? Something related to Celtic or Germanic?
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Spanish is a romance with a strong Basque influence that is noticed in things like:
- pure 5 vowel system (no short/long differences, no intermediate sounds)
- lost of F at the start of many words (facer -> hacer, farina -> harina)
- diferent verbs for the the two meanings of "to be": exist and stay (ser and estar)
- etc.
Other romances with strong Basque influence are: Gascon (maybe the most strongly influenced as its spoken by a formerly Basque speaking people exclussively) and Aragonese (now virtually extinct).
Spanish (Castilian) also has Arabic influences in some vocabulary and what some would call Mozarabic influences as well (Mozarabs were Christians living in Muslim Spain, it's thought that Andalusian is a descendant of the Mozarabic romance, which was important in the Middle Ages)
Celtic influence can't be appreciated at all and Germanic influence is limited and less relevant than that of Arab (just some words like guerra=war). Germanic influx is surely more noticeable in French.
You have to consider that in the Middle Ages, in Iberia there were a little bunch of romance tongues being spoken: Galician, Asturian, Leonese, Castilian (modern Spanish), Aragonese, Catalonian (very close to Occitanian), Occitanian too and finally Mozarabic in Al Andalus but influencing the north as well. Apart of those, Basque (pre-IE)was widely spoken in a large area in North Central Spain and SW France, influencing its inmediate neighbours. Accidentally, Castilian became the oficial language of Castile-Leon and later of Spain... while a dialect of Galician became that of Portugal, with the rest remaining unofficial or only oficial in their regions, often autonomous states till late in History.
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Belisarius
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Posted: 30-Jul-2005 at 11:49 |
Well that answers most of my questions. Thanks fellows.
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Pelayo
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Posted: 31-Jul-2005 at 16:13 |
I would contest and clarify a few points made here.
As far as ethnicity, Spaniards are definitely caucasian, but a poutpourri of subtypes. Meditteranean mixed with Alpine-Nordic.
But when talking about Spain, you really are talking about a multicultural mix, dominated by the residents of the central meseta. My family has medium brown hair, hazel, green, and brown eyes, some pale, light olive skin. We are Aragonese-Catalan.
Most Spaniards are a mix of iberean (mediterranean caucasian) and Celtic groups. The farther north the more Celtic.
The nobility of Spain prided itself in being of Visigothic origin, and in most cases were. They probably made up between 5-7% of the population.
Based on extensive reading, here would be a good guestimate as any:
Iberian - 45% (indigenous - I agree Basque Like)
Celtic - 30% (-->, celti-iberian)
Romano-Italic - 10-15%
Visigothic 5-8%
Other/Berber/Jewish - 3-5% (kicked out in droves due to racial and religious Bigotry)
Linguistically, I think Spanish is more Italic than Italian is. The latin brought by Rome was Oscan-Umbrian.
Germanic is common in many names. -ez ending are gothic. Guerra derives from Visigothic term for war, as are numerous words involved in war. Overall, a pretty small influence but still noticeable.
Celtic influence is limited to rural/farming terms. Did you know Cerveza is a celtic word for wheat beer?
Basque? Iberian? Small but noticeable. Izquerda is basque.
Arabic made a HUGE impression on Castilian, and makes up to 5-10% of the language.
If you took away Latin, you prbably would have more Arabic words than anything else.
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Maju
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Posted: 31-Jul-2005 at 18:55 |
I will disagree with you, Pelayo: Celtic genetic input in Iberia must have been small.
To start with we aren't even sure of who were the Celts or what kind of
markers they should carry with them; obviously modern Celtic-speaking
remains in Britain and Brittany are not representative and actually are
populations that were celtizied (assimilated by invading Celts) very
late in Prehistory (c. 300, 200 BCE or even later). Their original
formation as people may well have been around the Rhin, where they
dwelled till German invasions in the last centuries BCE.
Then we have to look at how Celts migrated in two phases into Iberia:
c. 1300 BCE they took Catalonia and the valley of the Ebro (Urnfield
invasion), following this river upwards in the following centuries
(late Urnfield period). C. 700 BCE they migrated into the central
plateau, clearly mixing strongly with the natives of Cogotas I (which
should have been wide majority but not the ruling class) and giving
birth to Cogotas II, clearly Celtic. From this region they invaded most
of Lusitania and parts of Galicia (the Celticity of all Galicia is each
day more contested). C. 600 Celts are displaced from their initial
bases in NE Iberia and lose contact with continental Celts, never
incorporating the La Tne culture nor Druidism, which was borrowed from
pre-IE Britain.
So I can imagine that the genetic apportation of Celts to the Iberian
pool is small and all data I've seen doesn't say anything different.
Maybe a little larger than that of Visigoths but probably smaller than
that of North Africans.
The affirmation that the northernmost, the more Celtic, is again
misleading. Obviously Basques aren't Celtic and are clearly in the
north of the Peninsula. We aren't Iberian either but I will adress this
point later. As I said before, the celticity of all Galicia is not
totally clear... but the Celticity of Astures and Cantabri is even less
clear. Many Spanish scholars assume happily that but I haven't seen yet
a single argument or evidence. Instead, we know that Cantabri went to
Aquitaine to fight side by side with that Basque-speaking people
against Caesar because they were related with each other.
So I would say that the Northern strip of Iberia, that which looks to
the Bay of Biscay is not Celtic. Celtic Iberia was at the arrival of
Romans: most of the Central Plateau, the northern half or 2/3 of
Lusitania, badly defined parts of Galicia (NW) and also that area of
the Iberic mountains (south of the Ebro river) where a mixed Celtiberian nation
had formed after the struggles they had before. It's rather the Center
and the West the regions that were Celtic at the start of Romanization.
Now, the rest of the peoples can be divided in three groups:
- Iberians (in the restrictive ethnic meaning): in the East and SE
- Tartessians (who spoke and wrote a different language or group of languages): in the SW
- the peoples of the mountainous Northern strip that are related to
Aquitani and from which modern Basques are heirs (Astures, Cantabri,
Autrigones, Caristii, Varduli, Vascones and maybe others)
There was much noise in the first half of the 20th century on wether
Iberian and Basque were related. I have transcribed some Iberian texts
myself in order to check with this eyes if there is any kind of
relation and I think that there is some but not clear enough... maybe
it is just a share of vocabulary... in any case I haven't been able to
translate more than fragments and never a whole text using Basque.
Why is this? Because Iberians probably start their existence when the
Mediterranean farmers and fishermen of the early Neolithic
(Cardium-Printed pottery) arrive c. 4700 BCE. We know now that though
the infleuence of this culture was very intense in all Mediterranean
Europe from Albania to Alicante, they mixed with natives in almost all
occasions. In Iberia, for instance the place of larger colonization
seems to be the south of the Valencian country, while in Catalonia and
SE France the colonization was ridiculous and assimilation the rule.
Possibly the areas with most pure "Mediterranean Neolithic" blood are
Sardinia and Corsica, that were uninhabited before their arrival.
In any case, from this mixed "Mediterranean" and native "paleolithic"
origin, is where the Iberian nation sprung. Though its
(pre)history is complex and full of interesting episodes, I think it's
not necessary to enter into that.
The other Neolithic migration could have happened earlier in Andalusia
(6th milenium BCE), where a misterious culture (La Almagra pottery) was
sowing cereals and eating olives maybe 1000 years before the Iberians
were formed. I can imagine that the Tartessian-speaking groups could
derive from this very misterious focus that also influenced the SW.
The rest of the substratum is what I call native or aborigin, that is
from the peoples that used Magdalenian and, later post-Magdalenian,
culture all around Western and Central Europe. Some of these, as I've
said got assimilated/mixed with Mediterranean farmers in the 6th and
5th milennium but the rest, the ones that occupied non-Mediterranean
niches, absorbed only very slowly the new agricultural technologies and
seemingly remained faithful to their language and identity, not just in
Iberia but in all Atlantic Europe, being the core of the Megalithic
phenomenon.
I think that, as in all Western Europe, the native or "paleolithic"
element is dominant in Iberia as well, but has got mixed with other
apportations, specially in the Mediterranean coastal regions.
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strategos
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Posted: 31-Jul-2005 at 19:37 |
And CIA world factbook says:
Composite of Mediterranean and Nordic types
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Pelayo
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Posted: 31-Jul-2005 at 19:53 |
Maju,
Thanks for the input! That is certainly a bit different that what seems to be accepted.
A couple of thoughts/questions.
How do you explain the phenotypic variance from the presumed Asturians, Cantabrians, Galicians, and other places or presumed celts, by Spanish scholars?
AlsoFrom various sources I understood that the Celti-Iberains had some cultural similarities to other Celts in their style of fighting, dress, and cultural organization. Are the musical and cultural Celtishness of Galicia just hogwash? Did they have a greater influence in culture than actual numbers, population wise? Interested to hear your thoughts!
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Maju
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Posted: 31-Jul-2005 at 20:52 |
Originally posted by Pelayo
Maju,
Thanks for the input! That is certainly a bit different that what seems to be accepted.
A couple of thoughts/questions.
How do you explain the phenotypic variance from the presumed
Asturians, Cantabrians, Galicians, and other places or presumed celts,
by Spanish scholars? |
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Do you mean why do you find
many blondisms there or something? Galicians are the smallest among all
Spaniards, what doesn't seem to fit well with the Nordicist Celtic
myth. Castilians and Portugese are the most Celtic of all Iberian
groups.
If you tell me that Galicians and Irish or Welsh are related, I
would have no problem believing you but notice that the relations that
can be testified archaeologically between Atlantic Iberia and the
British islands belong to Calcolithic and Bronze ages before Celts
entered either territory. Taking British peoples as archetype of
Celtism is totally confusing... they are Celts (celtizied) only since
300 BCE or even later. Southern Germans would be a better sample, even
if they stopped being Celts (got Germanized) soon after the others were
assimilated.
AlsoFrom various sources I understood that the Celti-Iberains
had some cultural similarities to other Celts in their style
of fighting, dress, and cultural organization. |
Yes, I'd agree that they seem to be more Celts than Iberians in
customs but the classics say that they were mixed after some time of
struggle. Of course other Celts were mixed as well but not with
Iberians properly speaking.
Are the musical and cultural Celtishness of Galicia just hogwash? |
If you're talking about the gaita (blowing
pipe or however is called in English) I must tell you that the same
instrument is played in the Basque Country (without the bag). It could
be a Celtic influx (unsure) but I suspect it being something original
from the Atlantic natives. I really can't say more.
I don't mean to deny the Celtic influence and presence in Galicia,
starting by the very name of the country, but we have to consider Celts
for what they were: a misterious IE people that sprung from somewhere
in West-Central Europe and expanded in two main waves:
1) Urnfields (c. 1300 BCE, with Italics and Illyrians most probably)
2) La Tne (c. 400-50 BCE, an exclussively Celtic culture)
The Celts of Iberia came with the first wave (expanding later in a
local proccess), while the Celts of Britain arrived mainly with the
second wave, adopted Druidism there and exported it back to the
continent. Both proccesses implied a lot of mixture with subjugated or
allied natives, so the Celtic genetic apportation was obviously small
except maybe in some regions.
Did they have a greater influence in culture than actual numbers, population wise? Interested to hear your thoughts! |
Yes, that's the point. Most invasions/migrations of history and
prehistory don't involve genocide and suplantation of one people by the
newcomers. This is a extremely simplified vision that is obvioulsy
wrong. At least when the invaded were sedentary farmers, all invasions
were +/- like that of the Visigoths: a small number of well armed and
well organized people over a mass of peasants. In the Visigothic case,
they never tried to assimilate the submitted peoples and in fact they
were the ones that became assimilated into Roman culture but often the
invaders are in position of imposing some of their traits, particularly
language, customs and socio-political organization.
Another good example could be Latin America, where most of it is
basically Amerindian with only a small European (and African)
aportation. Still most of them speak Spanish as mother language and
feel Hispanic and not Inca or Aztec or Arawak or whatever. But the
actual Spanish blood there is limited, maybe 10-15%?? (not counting the
southernmost countries like Argentina that resemble more the
genocidal-colonizing model of Angloamerica)
As a curiosity, I'll mention that Basque has no Celtic apportations
at all, while is abundant in Latin ones. This maybe because Basques (as
Iberians) were probably in almost continuous fight with Celts while the
relation with Romans was good before feudalism evolved.
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Pelayo
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Posted: 31-Jul-2005 at 21:14 |
In the Visigothic case, they never tried to assimilate the submitted peoples and in fact they were the ones that became assimilated into Roman culture but often the invaders are in position of imposing some of their traits, particularly language, customs and socio-political organization. |
They did intergrate after King Leovogild. Then after the fall of Roderick, the first Asturian kingdom they were integrated. I think the ruling caste(Goth) delivered a higher numbers of heirs.
If you tell me that Galicians and Irish or Welsh are related, I would have no problem believing you but notice that the relations that can be testified archaeologically between Atlantic Iberia and the British islands belong to Calcolithic and Bronze ages before Celts entered either territory. |
So that phenotype is pre-celt?
Why do they look different than the southern phenotype if these were pre-celtic natives in the north? Shouldn't they have had similar characteristics?
Genetic testing should it be done well, can answer these questions somewhat.
Thanks for your responses ![](smileys/smiley2.gif)
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Maju
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Posted: 31-Jul-2005 at 21:59 |
Originally posted by Pelayo
If you tell me that Galicians and Irish or Welsh
are related, I would have no problem believing you but notice that the
relations that can be testified archaeologically between Atlantic
Iberia and the British islands belong to Calcolithic and Bronze ages
before Celts entered either territory. |
So that phenotype is pre-celt? |
Most likely yes.
Why do they look different than the southern phenotype if
these were pre-celtic natives in the north? Shouldn't they have had
similar characteristics? |
If you're talking about Galicians, they are a unique group and most
do look vaguely Mediterranean to me. They are (jn their plurality)
darker and smaller than Basques and Asturians and Cantabrians as well.
But I can't explain well why. Surely with Megalithism "mediterranean"
colonists went northwards... but this is very speculative.
Mediterraneans, apart of the natural selection due to climate, seem
to have a greater proportion of Near Eastern or Aegean (Mediterranean)
genes.
Genetic testing should it be done well, can answer these questions somewhat. |
Sure, though it's not any exact science either. Take a look a the Principal Components of the European Genome and you will see how Iberians and most French are basically genetic Basques with some foreign mixture.
Iberians are partcularly low in the 2nd PC (associated most strongly to
Lapps), the 3rd PC (associated to the Don basin, hipothetical source of
Indo-Europeans - I'd say only western IEs) and very high in the 5th PC,
associated to Basques.
Basques (but not most Iberians) are low in the 4th PC (asociated to
Greece - that would have come more in the early Neolithic than in the
reduced Greek colonization of classical history).
In general Iberians resemble more Western Europeans than any other
European region but have a significatively greater Mediterranean influx
and maybe lower Eastern European one.
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Pelayo
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Posted: 31-Jul-2005 at 22:19 |
Strange, My Galician(gallegos) friends of the family were prototypic tall, blond/red with blue eyes. The Roman family.
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