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Worst mistake in the islamic history?

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Worst mistake in the islamic history?
    Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 09:36
well we think It otherway, but this is between you(Armenians) and (turks)us.It  has no relation with Islam. 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 09:53
Mortaza, dont...
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 09:56
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2005 at 23:16
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

They were not first shia.

you wrong wahabi man

I understand some of you might carry deep inside them some feeling of guilts and betrayel of 1400 years ago, but please show some respect and stop calling others by disrespectful names. If he said they were the first shia, can you prove the opposite or just set down and type an insult?

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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 03:44
Originally posted by ok ge

Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

They were not first shia.

you wrong wahabi man

I understand some of you might carry deep inside them some feeling of guilts and betrayel of 1400 years ago, but please show some respect and stop calling others by disrespectful names. If he said they were the first shia, can you prove the opposite or just set down and type an insult?

Ok,But as all muslims knows the Khwarij were not the first Shia what is the relation between Khwarij and Shia they are totaly different,Khwarijs were against Imam Ali(PBUH) and Shia are his companion,followers and supporterthen he must check before he talked about event he didn't know about it,About the deep feeling it is honor to us,All inlegal Goverment tried to destroy us but we survived by the power of God,In addition he is Wahhabi because that is his name if you consider it unrespectful name I don't.
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 05:19

Well, I grew knowing that Im hanbali, a sunni school of thought you know. To call someone Wahabi is not better than calling a Muslim Muhammedian. Muslim never worship Muhammed Peace Be Upon Him, and no Saudi worship Muhammed bin Abdul Wahab. I don't know why people are called by names others than what they chose to be called by?

P.S: I checked his profile too, his name is not Wahabi. Do you have your glasses nearby?

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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 05:55

 I called him Wahhab because he is it is clear I concluded that from his mind.

Don't compare between the great prophet(Pbuh) with bin abid alwahab .

 

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 06:11
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

 I called him Wahhab because he is it is clear I concluded that from his mind.

Don't compare between the great prophet(Pbuh) with bin abid alwahab .

Don't Assume next time. I otherwise, we have a forum of assumptions then. How about if I assumed you are of Failaqh Bader the fanatics because of your mind.  See? Assuming shall be kept personally inside.

Who said I compared between the Prophet PBUH and Ibn Abdul Wahab? All what I compared was the process of naming due to the lack of intellegence and cohesive understading of the true nature of things. Again and follow me this time:

Mohammedian> named for Muslims (Wrong Name, no one worship the prophet)

Wahabis> Named for Saudis (Wrong Name, no one worship Ibn Abudl Wahab).

   Understand now? Let us end it here...thank you

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 08:13

Originally posted by Al Bedawi

not really as Eloha (God) and Elohim (sons of God a Plural for God) are the hebrew words used.

Zoastrianism Like all Non Islamic Faiths was corrupted by man.

the Root of Zoastrianism is Islam which was submission to the One True God

Much later man changed it , It is only Todays Islam with an Infalible book which is pure.


and please dont say such things as youve found your anwser what about mine, Im a native english speaker, I cant make this any simpler for you.

How can the Qur'an at the same time promote equality but then tell you how your slave should be treated?

The Qur'an, I am sorry to say is just a tool of Arab imperialism, and how can Zaroastrianism possibly be based on the Qur'An? it was conceived at least 1500 years before Muhammad was even born!!!

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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 09:38

Ok brother but  I have nothing with you but he started it,otherwise you are Hanbli but what about other whom proud about Bin Abid Alwahab as a REFORMER OF RELIGION.

My behaivour is not fanatics and the Wahhabi is not a name for all Saudis people.

Saudi people are good people as all Iraqis know unless wahhabies.

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 13:42
Originally posted by Zagros

How can the Qur'an at the same time promote equality but then tell you how your slave should be treated?

The Qur'an, I am sorry to say is just a tool of Arab imperialism, and how can Zaroastrianism possibly be based on the Qur'An? it was conceived at least 1500 years before Muhammad was even born!!!

Well Zagros two points:

1- Slavery existed before Quran and so it is natural to see verses that instruct you how to treat them. You should concentrate more on also other verses that encourages & sometimes obligate you to free them for many reasons. No other religion obligated you to do so. If you swear with lie intentionally, if you break your fast in Ramadan...etc your first repentance is to free a slave if you have. As Quran gives you tons of reasons to free slaves, it also limits slavery. You cannot, if you truly follow the verse, conquest a city and take their people slaves. There is only a room for War slavery and 15 other rooms for freeing slavery.

2- If C has similarities with B, and B came from A, you can say eitehr that C came from B, or both C & B came from the same source which is A. Understand? Islam similarities to Judaism & Christianity and even Zaroastrianism does not mean necessary it coppied them. We Muslims believe that many prophets came before Islam and so, they will instruct teachings similar to each others because their source is one, God. Was Islam an Arab tool for Imperialism? As far I remember, Arab didn't force anyone to be Musilm in Persia and in fact, trom the 16th to 18th century Zoroastrians like Jews and Christians suffered greatly at the hands of Safavid rulers and Abbas shah the great who transformed Iran from multi-religious and sects to shism. 

Originally posted by Ahmed the fighter

but what about other whom proud about Bin Abid Alwahab as a REFORMER OF RELIGION.

Well, I love so much Iraq, the land of civilization and diversity. However, assuming you like Ibn Abdul Wahab as a reformer why should you be called Wahabi? If you like El Sestani can I call you Sestanian? No of course, that is wrong.



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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 02:30

 Cok don't mix the answers,I didn't call them wahhabies they called themselfs.

 

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 04:15

 

well the name Wahhabies is not an insult,

and Ibn Abd Alwahab is considered a Reformer, note that Reformer here doesn't mean that he invented new system or anything, he just called for muslims to return to the Quran and Prophet's Hadiths as the main sources of the religion,

and there are only 4 sectors in Sunni branch of Islam they are Maliki, Hanbali, Hanafi and Shafei there are no Wahhabies.

What is Called Wahhabi is actully Hanbali from Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanibal teachings , and one of most of important Scholars of Hanbali sector is Shiekh al islam  Ibn Taymeyah. Ibn Abd Alwahab is juat a follower of this Sector and called a reformer because this branch of islam was abandoned by the Ottomans and Ibn Abd Alwahab just brought it back in control.

 

by the way many Arabs calls Shea "Rawafedh" and "Rafedhi" which means roughly the one who reject or refuse.

 

 

 

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 06:19
Ahmed, no one here calls himself Wahabi. I only heard that term travelling abroad. But anyhow, to get back to the topic, yeah unity is important . What was the topic again?
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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 06:54

OK,I respect all branch of islam,but I consider Ibn Taymyah and Abd alwahab one of the worst thing happened to islam,this worst things came from these men.

As you said unity is important but how and by which rules. 

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 12:21

Well, that is your opinion. But just to let you know Ibn Taymyah was not only a scholar setting his ass and giving fatwas left and right. He was a scholar, a man of wisdom, and a warrior who fought in various battles the Mongols after invading Syria. Just that reason is enough to respect him at least.

Regarding Ibn Abdul Wahab. He just called for directing worships to God directly without the need of Mullahs, trees, stones, crying and begging dead people. So, he called for fundamental reform. He is not the one who called for woman not to drive, for Cinemas not to be built and ...etc.

Those all came as a wrong interpretation of his book. He was only concerned that you go today, set and pray to your god without looking for an intermediate connector. Isn't this the basic core of Islam already?

About unity, I got confused about the original topic here..there is another thread of this topic



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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 15:23

Ibn Taymyah was not a peace man he is the godfather of all extremer religion and terrorists ,Ibn abd Alwhab as he said obey your boss but he is the first who revolted against Ottoman empire in the arabia.

His stupid opinion about other branches of islam open the door to everyone to be MUFTI and give Fatwa.

Who one need the trees to be a way to the great God you outage your point here.

If he REFORMER where is his conclusion and fruitfull results.

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 16:19

Who needs trees for blessings? Ask the guys of Sidr tree in Asir? they existed buddy. Im glad Ibn Abdul Wahab existed reviving the hanbli school of thought too. If you don't like him, I understand that, no need to distribute insults.

Now Ibn Taymiyah is the godfather of all exterimist & terrorist? Can you show that to us?

Finally, Ibn Abdul Wahab again fought Ottomans. So? The man died before the war with Ottomans. His ally Saud got in conflict with Mehmet Ali Pasha of Egypt after cupturing Mecca in 1807 AD, and a war of 7 years errupted. 

His achievement were only to explain to people wrong & wright and to open the door again for all people to interpret and do Ijtihad. You should not be concerned that "everybody gives fatwa", but you should be concern who gives fatwa. If I did, what are my credentials? that is better than closing the door of various interpretation and sticking to one Imam, or Mullah, or whatever his name will be.

Maybe I can tell you a little bit about exterimism. Extremism is when you massacre and force 4 million Zoroastrians to convert to Shia by Abbas Shah of Safavid. While the Ottomans conquesting Europe and under seiging Vienna, our beloved Safavids decided to attack the Ottomans from their back, causing the withdraw of troops from Vienna seige. More? fanaticism is when you think you get revelation from God and you are his representative on earth. Yes, in Saudi we have Imams who give authoritative fatwas but government ignores them sometimes, conflict with them, and every person recognize the seperation of religion and state here. I can tell him you are wrong mr. Imam for that reason, and that reason. That is unfortunately does not exist in the theology of most shiites. No wonder over one million people died in the Iraq-Iran war, not only because of Saddam stupidity to attack Iran, but also the Ayatuallah fanatic vision that he is directed by god and refusing Iraq truce and peace talk in 1982 to end the war with one statement "I don't stop till we reach Baghad", That is FANATICISM. Thank you

Let us close this subject as we go back & forth. Im happy if you want to open a new thread for that topic, but I don't know where it should fit as a category.

 



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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2005 at 07:11

As you sad this is policy don't connect it with religion.And I ask you who attacked Najaf and Kerblaa and burned the cities these cities in that time under Ottoman control,The Ottoman were not angles to defended thhem like that in seliem I the grim reign he gathered all shia in his empire and killed them  Abd alwahb and his hate aganst shia and his followers from saudi family and ealse,dont give him more than his mnority size.

About Ibn Taymyah THIS IS FROM SUNNI SOURCES :

We are putting this treatise in the hands of the reader to clarify the case of Ibn Taymiyah to whoever does not know about it and to refute some of his numerous sayings in which he deviated from the belief and Ijma^ [The ^Ijma^, one source of Islamic teachings

Ibn Taymiyah's Deviations from the Muslims

Know that, although Ibn Taymiyah had many writings and a fame, he is as the Muhaddith, Hafiz, Faqih, Waliyy-ud-Din al-^Iraqiyy, the son of the Shaykh of Huffaz, Zayn-ud-Din al-^Iraqiyy, in his book "al-'Ajwibat-ul-Mardiyyah" said about him: His knowledge is bigger than his mind.  He also said: He infringed the Ijma^ in many issues, which was said to be sixty issues, some of which are in the Usul and others in the Furu^ [Al-'Usul is ^Ilm-ut-Tawhid, the Science of the belief in Allah and His Messenger. Al-Furu^ deals with the Islamic matters other than those of belief (Usul), such as Salah, Siyam, and dealings.] After the Ijma^ has settled upon those issues, he violated it. Some lay people and others followed him in this violation.  The scholars of his time hastened to refute him and charged him of bringing bid^ah [Bid^ah is innovation; something which is new some of which are Islamically acceptable and others are rejected. Here it refers to the prohibited innovation.]  Among those was Imam, Hafiz, Taqiyy-ud-Din ^Aliyy Ibn ^Abd-il-Kafi as-Subkiyy.  In "ad-Durrat-ul-Mudiyyah", he said what means: Ibn Taymiyah innovated the foul things in the Usul of belief and infringed the foundations of al-'Islam.

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 01:53

 

common Ahmad dont start this, you know there are many sites on the web are doing these things already by giving us some misunderstood transilations and other untrusted sources you think you'll convence us that Ibn Taymeyah was far from being a muslim!!

iam not into these debates really otherwise there are tons of stuff against your " aayaatullahs" and your Imams .

 

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