Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Worst mistake in the islamic history?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 6>
Author
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Worst mistake in the islamic history?
    Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 14:29

First of all: wahabis should be ashamed of themselves. It's the most intolerant sect that ever existed on this planet. Wahabism is the worst thing in (out of) Islam They advocate murder on shias, sufis and other muslims who tninks differently. And by the way, all the massmurderers, terrorists and talibans are wahabis. 

Second: And Khwarij are not shias. How could they be? They killed Ali, the first shiite Imam. You know that the word Shia comes from Shiat Ali (Ali's party)?

Third: I have seen alot of discussions between sunnis and shias who are experts. And of what I've seen the shias are more convincing. For example Muhammed actually proclaimed Ali as his successor in front of thousands. And by the the caliphes actually killed Muhammed GRANDCHILDREN. And you can read what Muhammed thought and said about them (he liked them) ...
And maybe most important: The caliphes actually changed Islam. For example, as leader, Uthman banned mutah (sigha). Something the prophet didn't. There are alot more ....

You can actually read these things in sunni hadiths even though they are doing everything to keep these things secret.

Now, don't think that I'm trying to convert you or something. I'm not even religious. I really don't care (don't even know why i'm writing this ). Just wanted to point out what I've seen in previous discussiones.

 

Back to Top
ok ge View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 11:15
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

http://www.sunna.info/antiwahabies/wahhabies/ 

this is the link from sunna and jamaa.

Ok, Im deeply disappointed that you used this link Ahmed. That was just an insult to your intellegence and our intellegence.

That link Mr. Ahmed that you call a sunni source is not a sunni source. It is clearly a shia source. If you have a spectrum like this:

Qaradawi (liberal)<-------various groups in between------>(conservative)Imam Abdul Wahab

Qaradawi and Ibn Abdul Wahab are completely in a lot of fundentmal desputes, and when you come to insult both side and the middle groups it is clearly that you don't belong to any sunni group, because you would have fell in either side or between the two extreme points in that spectrum. Besides it insults every Sunni Imam from Ibn Taymyah to Qaradawi, it talks about Imam Ja'fer Al sadek quotations. If you know that site was a misleading and you insisted on using the sources -especially that you hesitated first in quoting the soruce, most probably you just treated people here as stupid and with direspect of their intellegence and their time. 

That link uses two or three Sunni imams unrelated quotes, and then goes on and on by pages with Imam Ali only and then Imam Ja'far al Sadek for the rest of the whole arguement!! Since when sunnis use a source called the Qushayrian letter? Let us end this argument here as you have deeply disappointed me. Open another thread Ali as I and others are sick of this non-sense. Do that and I will be happy to overload you with shia sites that criticize shias Imams and leave you to dig their source and waste your time on them. Please!

A sample of what you will most often see in that sunniwebiste:

(148 ) : " . ǡ ǡ - " .  [ (/ 6) ].

http://www.sunna.info/taw7id1.html

From me to Imam Ja'far Al Sadek, did he really study Quran when he says that God cannot be on something because it means he is carried? Im the ignorant can easily tell him the verse in Quran where Allah himself says he is on "Arsh" a chair carreid by 8 angels. " ". by the way, Imam Jafar al sadek is a fundemntal source of Shia legislation and theology . Happy now Ahmed?

 

 >>



Edited by ok ge
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 10:45

Originally posted by DayI

1001nights
try to use normal font size and letters, it is sometimes unreadeble

 

kardes... this editing and writing system here, ay it is killing, vallah... lol

how is it now!!! readable!

Back to Top
DayI View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 30-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2408
  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 09:35
1001nights
try to use normal font size and letters, it is sometimes unreadeble
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 09:11

it is nationalization{power and fame!}

 

I read some of the post and I was like "what the...!"

ooofff oofffff

 

you all are the worst mistake in Islam  it is nationalization!

 

Arab empires{led by Arabs, because it was rather Islamic} were great but it didn't survive because people started fighting for power and having their name as emir elmouamneen... no emeer moumneen for me other than Mohammed (saaws).!

When Turks took over the Arabs.. they killed heaps...Baghdad population went down like never before {how Islamic was that}

Plus, Osmanli never trusted Arabs, and never gave them leadership in their lands, correct me if I was wrong because Im 80% sure of that!

 At the same time, Arabs in ww1 and instead of helping each other against Europe, they attacked other Muslims, thats the Ottomans, and look where are we now, thanks to .. you know who...

 And you here are attacking each other... again the same mistake over and over mashalla!

We won't successes until we take Islam as nationality again.. no shiaa, no sunna , no Turkish, no Arab or whatever Muslims.

and remember God sais that humans arn't perfect.. we all made/make mistakes...



Edited by 1001nights
Back to Top
Ahmed The Fighter View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Lion of Babylon

Joined: 17-Apr-2005
Location: Iraq
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1106
  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 07:43
Fine Azimuth but if you intrested I didn't attack sunnah we live together in my country in peace we mixed together from hundred years but we must be fair and leave the bleive and analyze the fact,Ibn Abd Alwahab was a bad person and his godfather too.
"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid
Back to Top
azimuth View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
SlaYer'S SlaYer

Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979
  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 07:18

 

well iam sure there are many Shiea sources and sites have things against Shiea imams and "aayatallah"

but as i said iam not into these stuff, if you are intersted you can search for these sites.

 

Back to Top
Ahmed The Fighter View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Lion of Babylon

Joined: 17-Apr-2005
Location: Iraq
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1106
  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 06:08

http://www.sunna.info/antiwahabies/wahhabies/ 

this is the link from sunna and jamaa.

Azimuth you have tons against ayout allah from their enemy but this site and else from sunna against Ibn Taymyah and Ibn Abdel alwahab.

"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid
Back to Top
ok ge View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 02:02
And I ask you who attacked Najaf and Kerblaa and burned
the cities these cities in that time

Please Please Please, I would say again the same thing.
Muhammed Ibn Abdul Wahab died in 1792 before the attack of
Karbalaa and Najaf. Najaf and Karbalaa attack was in 1802.
Plus, they destroyed the Husayn tomb, not burned the cities.
Please do not exaggerate in history. Here is a link that proves
that (It is even anti-Wahabi)
http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/wahhabi_movement.htm
Let me help you in your arguement. Instead of pointing out
what the man's supporter did, point out to his teaching. There is
no correlation necessary between what a follower do and what
his teacher had taught.
For example, Bin Ladin says he follows right Islam and
committed massacres, does it mean Islam teachings are bad?
not necessary. Ibn Abdul Wahab followers also entered Taif in
September 1926 and massacred 15,000. Does it mean that
must be Ibn Abdul Wahab teachings? not necessary. You need
to point out on his teachings and not what his followers claim to
be his teachings.
About Ibn Taymyah THIS IS FROM SUNNI SOURCES
Please tell me you forgot the link? I don't see any source here.
No link, no book with pages numbers. Nothing. Please provide
a credible source so I can assess it and criticize it. Im not going
to comment of course on unproved statements.

Edited by ok ge
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
Back to Top
azimuth View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
SlaYer'S SlaYer

Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979
  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 01:53

 

common Ahmad dont start this, you know there are many sites on the web are doing these things already by giving us some misunderstood transilations and other untrusted sources you think you'll convence us that Ibn Taymeyah was far from being a muslim!!

iam not into these debates really otherwise there are tons of stuff against your " aayaatullahs" and your Imams .

 

Back to Top
Ahmed The Fighter View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Lion of Babylon

Joined: 17-Apr-2005
Location: Iraq
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1106
  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2005 at 07:11

As you sad this is policy don't connect it with religion.And I ask you who attacked Najaf and Kerblaa and burned the cities these cities in that time under Ottoman control,The Ottoman were not angles to defended thhem like that in seliem I the grim reign he gathered all shia in his empire and killed them  Abd alwahb and his hate aganst shia and his followers from saudi family and ealse,dont give him more than his mnority size.

About Ibn Taymyah THIS IS FROM SUNNI SOURCES :

We are putting this treatise in the hands of the reader to clarify the case of Ibn Taymiyah to whoever does not know about it and to refute some of his numerous sayings in which he deviated from the belief and Ijma^ [The ^Ijma^, one source of Islamic teachings

Ibn Taymiyah's Deviations from the Muslims

Know that, although Ibn Taymiyah had many writings and a fame, he is as the Muhaddith, Hafiz, Faqih, Waliyy-ud-Din al-^Iraqiyy, the son of the Shaykh of Huffaz, Zayn-ud-Din al-^Iraqiyy, in his book "al-'Ajwibat-ul-Mardiyyah" said about him: His knowledge is bigger than his mind.  He also said: He infringed the Ijma^ in many issues, which was said to be sixty issues, some of which are in the Usul and others in the Furu^ [Al-'Usul is ^Ilm-ut-Tawhid, the Science of the belief in Allah and His Messenger. Al-Furu^ deals with the Islamic matters other than those of belief (Usul), such as Salah, Siyam, and dealings.] After the Ijma^ has settled upon those issues, he violated it. Some lay people and others followed him in this violation.  The scholars of his time hastened to refute him and charged him of bringing bid^ah [Bid^ah is innovation; something which is new some of which are Islamically acceptable and others are rejected. Here it refers to the prohibited innovation.]  Among those was Imam, Hafiz, Taqiyy-ud-Din ^Aliyy Ibn ^Abd-il-Kafi as-Subkiyy.  In "ad-Durrat-ul-Mudiyyah", he said what means: Ibn Taymiyah innovated the foul things in the Usul of belief and infringed the foundations of al-'Islam.

"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid
Back to Top
ok ge View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 16:19

Who needs trees for blessings? Ask the guys of Sidr tree in Asir? they existed buddy. Im glad Ibn Abdul Wahab existed reviving the hanbli school of thought too. If you don't like him, I understand that, no need to distribute insults.

Now Ibn Taymiyah is the godfather of all exterimist & terrorist? Can you show that to us?

Finally, Ibn Abdul Wahab again fought Ottomans. So? The man died before the war with Ottomans. His ally Saud got in conflict with Mehmet Ali Pasha of Egypt after cupturing Mecca in 1807 AD, and a war of 7 years errupted. 

His achievement were only to explain to people wrong & wright and to open the door again for all people to interpret and do Ijtihad. You should not be concerned that "everybody gives fatwa", but you should be concern who gives fatwa. If I did, what are my credentials? that is better than closing the door of various interpretation and sticking to one Imam, or Mullah, or whatever his name will be.

Maybe I can tell you a little bit about exterimism. Extremism is when you massacre and force 4 million Zoroastrians to convert to Shia by Abbas Shah of Safavid. While the Ottomans conquesting Europe and under seiging Vienna, our beloved Safavids decided to attack the Ottomans from their back, causing the withdraw of troops from Vienna seige. More? fanaticism is when you think you get revelation from God and you are his representative on earth. Yes, in Saudi we have Imams who give authoritative fatwas but government ignores them sometimes, conflict with them, and every person recognize the seperation of religion and state here. I can tell him you are wrong mr. Imam for that reason, and that reason. That is unfortunately does not exist in the theology of most shiites. No wonder over one million people died in the Iraq-Iran war, not only because of Saddam stupidity to attack Iran, but also the Ayatuallah fanatic vision that he is directed by god and refusing Iraq truce and peace talk in 1982 to end the war with one statement "I don't stop till we reach Baghad", That is FANATICISM. Thank you

Let us close this subject as we go back & forth. Im happy if you want to open a new thread for that topic, but I don't know where it should fit as a category.

 



Edited by ok ge
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
Back to Top
Ahmed The Fighter View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Lion of Babylon

Joined: 17-Apr-2005
Location: Iraq
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1106
  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 15:23

Ibn Taymyah was not a peace man he is the godfather of all extremer religion and terrorists ,Ibn abd Alwhab as he said obey your boss but he is the first who revolted against Ottoman empire in the arabia.

His stupid opinion about other branches of islam open the door to everyone to be MUFTI and give Fatwa.

Who one need the trees to be a way to the great God you outage your point here.

If he REFORMER where is his conclusion and fruitfull results.

"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid
Back to Top
ok ge View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 12:21

Well, that is your opinion. But just to let you know Ibn Taymyah was not only a scholar setting his ass and giving fatwas left and right. He was a scholar, a man of wisdom, and a warrior who fought in various battles the Mongols after invading Syria. Just that reason is enough to respect him at least.

Regarding Ibn Abdul Wahab. He just called for directing worships to God directly without the need of Mullahs, trees, stones, crying and begging dead people. So, he called for fundamental reform. He is not the one who called for woman not to drive, for Cinemas not to be built and ...etc.

Those all came as a wrong interpretation of his book. He was only concerned that you go today, set and pray to your god without looking for an intermediate connector. Isn't this the basic core of Islam already?

About unity, I got confused about the original topic here..there is another thread of this topic



Edited by ok ge
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
Back to Top
Ahmed The Fighter View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Lion of Babylon

Joined: 17-Apr-2005
Location: Iraq
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1106
  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 06:54

OK,I respect all branch of islam,but I consider Ibn Taymyah and Abd alwahab one of the worst thing happened to islam,this worst things came from these men.

As you said unity is important but how and by which rules. 

"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid
Back to Top
ok ge View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 06:19
Ahmed, no one here calls himself Wahabi. I only heard that term travelling abroad. But anyhow, to get back to the topic, yeah unity is important . What was the topic again?
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
Back to Top
azimuth View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
SlaYer'S SlaYer

Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979
  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 04:15

 

well the name Wahhabies is not an insult,

and Ibn Abd Alwahab is considered a Reformer, note that Reformer here doesn't mean that he invented new system or anything, he just called for muslims to return to the Quran and Prophet's Hadiths as the main sources of the religion,

and there are only 4 sectors in Sunni branch of Islam they are Maliki, Hanbali, Hanafi and Shafei there are no Wahhabies.

What is Called Wahhabi is actully Hanbali from Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanibal teachings , and one of most of important Scholars of Hanbali sector is Shiekh al islam  Ibn Taymeyah. Ibn Abd Alwahab is juat a follower of this Sector and called a reformer because this branch of islam was abandoned by the Ottomans and Ibn Abd Alwahab just brought it back in control.

 

by the way many Arabs calls Shea "Rawafedh" and "Rafedhi" which means roughly the one who reject or refuse.

 

 

 

Back to Top
Ahmed The Fighter View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Lion of Babylon

Joined: 17-Apr-2005
Location: Iraq
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1106
  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 02:30

 Cok don't mix the answers,I didn't call them wahhabies they called themselfs.

 

"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid
Back to Top
ok ge View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 13:42
Originally posted by Zagros

How can the Qur'an at the same time promote equality but then tell you how your slave should be treated?

The Qur'an, I am sorry to say is just a tool of Arab imperialism, and how can Zaroastrianism possibly be based on the Qur'An? it was conceived at least 1500 years before Muhammad was even born!!!

Well Zagros two points:

1- Slavery existed before Quran and so it is natural to see verses that instruct you how to treat them. You should concentrate more on also other verses that encourages & sometimes obligate you to free them for many reasons. No other religion obligated you to do so. If you swear with lie intentionally, if you break your fast in Ramadan...etc your first repentance is to free a slave if you have. As Quran gives you tons of reasons to free slaves, it also limits slavery. You cannot, if you truly follow the verse, conquest a city and take their people slaves. There is only a room for War slavery and 15 other rooms for freeing slavery.

2- If C has similarities with B, and B came from A, you can say eitehr that C came from B, or both C & B came from the same source which is A. Understand? Islam similarities to Judaism & Christianity and even Zaroastrianism does not mean necessary it coppied them. We Muslims believe that many prophets came before Islam and so, they will instruct teachings similar to each others because their source is one, God. Was Islam an Arab tool for Imperialism? As far I remember, Arab didn't force anyone to be Musilm in Persia and in fact, trom the 16th to 18th century Zoroastrians like Jews and Christians suffered greatly at the hands of Safavid rulers and Abbas shah the great who transformed Iran from multi-religious and sects to shism. 

Originally posted by Ahmed the fighter

but what about other whom proud about Bin Abid Alwahab as a REFORMER OF RELIGION.

Well, I love so much Iraq, the land of civilization and diversity. However, assuming you like Ibn Abdul Wahab as a reformer why should you be called Wahabi? If you like El Sestani can I call you Sestanian? No of course, that is wrong.



Edited by ok ge
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
Back to Top
Ahmed The Fighter View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Lion of Babylon

Joined: 17-Apr-2005
Location: Iraq
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1106
  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 09:38

Ok brother but  I have nothing with you but he started it,otherwise you are Hanbli but what about other whom proud about Bin Abid Alwahab as a REFORMER OF RELIGION.

My behaivour is not fanatics and the Wahhabi is not a name for all Saudis people.

Saudi people are good people as all Iraqis know unless wahhabies.

"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 6>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.