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Did Jesus Christ really exist?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Did Jesus Christ really exist?
    Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 18:12
It is a shame that most of the time, witnessing proof is the only way to get a person to believe.

Of course it is, otherwise you could just as well believe in the existence of Santa Claus, faeries or Homeric gods.
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Posts: 1296 		  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 18:22
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Of course it is, otherwise you could just as well believe in the existence of Santa Claus, faeries or Homeric gods.


So what are you saying? Santa Claus is not real?!

I am joking, of course. It really is a shame no one is willing to simply have faith.

I take it you are not a Christian? No offence meant, I am just curious.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 18:29
Originally posted by Belisarius

It really is a shame no one is willing to simply have faith.

That's not entirely true. The vast majority of the world's population is still religious. Unfortunately I might say.

I take it you are not a Christian? No offence meant, I am just curious.

Indeed I'm not a Christian. I'm an atheist.
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Posts: 68 		  Quote human Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 05:32
Originally posted by aknc

jesus(isa)has been proven to exist,there are writings that prove that he,his wife and kids,and his FATHER existed

I have heard the same thing from somewhere. A Roman soldier was his father. His name was something like Panther...... I dont know of course if it is true.
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 07:43

Originally posted by Belisarius


I take it you are not a Christian? No offence meant, I am just curious.

Why would you think saying someone is not a Christian would be offensive? What a strange way of thinking.

 



Edited by gcle2003
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Posts: 1296 		  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 16:08
Originally posted by gcle2003

Why would you think saying someone is not a Christian would be offensive? What a strange way of thinking.

 


That is not what I meant at all. Some people just get upset when you ask them personal questions. I wanted to avoid that.
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Posts: 781 		  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 19:02
Originally posted by Paul

No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus got written well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations, I will use the information and dates to show that even if these sources did not come from interpolations, they could still not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because all sources derive from hearsay accounts.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

Precicely! The main reason people are somewhat skeptical of Jesus' historical existence  is because there are only a few known contemporary records. The vast majority of sources who refer to a person called Jesus are Christian and even the Bible, some people are taking for granted as proof for his existence was written by people convinced he was son of  god, and who clearly had motives to embellish various details, or even whole events.  Therefore simply isn't that much evidence to prove or disprove his existence. Whatever conclusions people draw from that, are their owns.

A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Morgoth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2005 at 21:29

It is a shame that most of the time, witnessing proof is the only way to get a person to believe.

What is the real shame is that, in this modern world, we still have people willing to believe in foolish fantasies with no evidence whatsoever. The reason why those who are atheists often wear the title with pride is precisely because what defines them is an unwilliningness to blindly believe in something simply because they want it to be true.
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Posts: 237 		  Quote The Guardian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2005 at 23:09
Originally posted by Morgoth

It is a shame that most of the time, witnessing proof is the only way to get a person to believe.

What is the real shame is that, in this modern world, we still have people willing to believe in foolish fantasies with no evidence whatsoever. The reason why those who are atheists often wear the title with pride is precisely because what defines them is an unwilliningness to blindly believe in something simply because they want it to be true.

well that is corerct,but atheism is a belief also.

And the shame is not what those people belive,the shame is that their belief of those non-proved mumbo jumbo keeps them from commiting terrible crimes
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Posts: 636 		  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2005 at 23:42
I belive that he did exist historically there's been proof and theologically the Bible and the Qu'ran confirm this too. The Qu'ran says that he was brought to heaven and not crucified because God would not allow a messenger of God to suffer such a humiliating fate.  Furthermore, it states that he is merely a man and that he perfomred miracles through god. 
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Morgoth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2005 at 01:40

well that is corerct,but atheism is a belief also.

Atheism is no more a belief than the assertion "that that there are no blue fairies frolicking on the moon" is a belief.

And the shame is not what those people belive,the shame is that their belief of those non-proved mumbo jumbo keeps them from committing terrible crimes

I'm sorry, are you saying that belief in a god keeps people from committing terrible crimes? I'd say that even a cursory look at history confirms this is not the case.



Edited by Morgoth
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Posts: 68 		  Quote human Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2005 at 03:05

i believe in God, im a Christian but i cannot accept books that they were written by Jewish shepherds centuries after Jesus death.

They are not even Historians to see things as an unbiased observer. Im sure that they were subjective.

Dont forget that all of us have a different concept about God even if we all are Christians.

 
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Posts: 636 		  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2005 at 19:20
Originally posted by human

i believe in God, im a Christian but i cannot accept books that they were written by Jewish shepherds centuries after Jesus death.

They are not even Historians to see things as an unbiased observer. Im sure that they were subjective.

Dont forget that all of us have a different concept about God even if we all are Christians.

qu'ran mentions jesus the prophet // not as a god or son of god either

 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2005 at 13:54
Would it be wrong of me to conjecture that Christiandom have existed despite the none- physical existence of Jesus?  It is a "faith" based enterprise after all.
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Morgoth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 10:06

Would it be wrong of me to conjecture that Christiandom have existed despite the none- physical existence of Jesus?  It is a "faith" based enterprise after all.

I'm not sure what you mean but, if youre trying to say that Christianity has existed despite not needing physical evidence to support it, I disagree.

There are numerous examples I can point to where the Church has sought to interfere with the natural progression of scientific knowledge that it judged as "heresies" because it was concerned that these were incompatible with its religion. The church has attempted to shape a world-view that gives support for the bible. For example, it advocated a world where some mythical world-flood had destroyed everything and where god had conjured up the universe in seven days. To do this, it needed certain "proofs", obviously "faith" would not be enough.

For example, their persecution of Galileos theories, their condemnation of Darwin's evolution. The Church has always attempted to fabricate evidence supporting its religion, and tried to stifle the legitimate attempts to understand our world that might take away this support.

 



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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 15:21

I read Etane's post differently.  I think he meant could Christianity have emerged and still exist if Jesus had never lived (or was some kind of composite character like Homer).

The answer has to be yes, doesn't it? We know Christianity exists. We don't know whether Jesus did. So whether Jesus lived or not must be immaterial to Christianity's existence.

For that matter we know Christianity exists, but we don't know God does, so the existence of Christianity does not depend on the existence or God.

If it were otherwise, then the fact of any religion's existence would require that its tenets be true. Which is patently unjustified, as any member of any faith will agree, since he thinks all the others are wrong.

 

 
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Posts: 1296 		  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 15:30
Originally posted by etane

Would it be wrong of me to conjecture that Christiandom have existed despite the none- physical existence of Jesus?  It is a "faith" based enterprise after all.

Exactly what I said! I like you!

Whether or not Christ existed (and I believe he did and does) is not as important as the message he wanted to convey to people.


Edited by Belisarius
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Posts: 4310 		  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 20:42
And what message was that? The message we have written down centuries after his supposed existence by often unreliable sources?
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Posts: 3151 		  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 21:47
I know one answer to this question!

http://www.carotta.de/eindex.html



lol. I got into a debate about this in the SMQ forum a while back.
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Posts: 1835 		  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 22:51
yes he did and he was a P. I. M. P.
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