Did Jesus Christ really exist?

I was just thinking about religious conflict in the world...ie the crusades etc. I also think other religions have been lost through the dominance of th early church and this to me is a loss of a way of life. It was just a remark pointing towards the fact the Christain church has many terrible deeds to its name as well as many good deeds. I in no way meant to offend.

Originally posted by gcle2003   Actually Buddhism presents a bigger problem here than either Christianity or Islam or Judaism.   I always refer to Gautama, not 'the Buddha' or, even worse, 'Buddha', but I'm not sure that a purist might not say Siddhartha, and Siddartha Gautama is too much to type. There were of course lots of Gautamas at the time, and only one Siddartha that I know of, but I'm old-fashioned enough to use the family name (when there is one) unless I've been accepted on familiar terms.

Originally posted by gcle2003 Akolouthos, I have no quarrel with most of that, except that as a matter of principle I would refer to Jesus, rather than Jesus Christ, since I don't accept the religious beliefs inherent in using the designation 'Christ'.

Edited by Akolouthos - 09-Apr-2007 at 08:31

Jesus Christ exists.

The question, especially in light of the commemoration of His glorious

Edited by Akolouthos - 08-Apr-2007 at 17:52

Yes.

Edited by gcle2003 - 08-Apr-2007 at 07:50

Originally posted by red clay � Keith wrote       He did, and does,�exist, and there is a God who created use and the universe and everything.        Question,� If a Creator-God made this universe, then where was he before that? Did he make our universe because he had to leave his old one? Lost his lease or something? And who created God, anyhoo?         Just wondering.

Given that God created everything, who created God?

Prophet Muhammad predicted that this question would one day be raised as he correctly predicted a great many future events of importance. On one occasion he said:

A day will certainly come when some people will sit with their legs crossed and ask: ‘Given that God created everything, who created God?’ (Bukhari, ‘I‘tisam,’ 3).

Those who put such questions are generally atheists or inclined to atheism and seek to lead others astray also. The purpose of their question is possibly to avoid the responsibilities owed by us to the Creator; belief and worship. At best, the question is derived from the observation of (what are taken to be) ‘cause and effect’ relationships. Every circumstance can be thought of as an ‘effect’ and attributed to an antecedent circumstance or ‘cause’ which, in turn, is attributed to some circumstance antecedent to it, and so on. In the first place, it is obvious to anyone who reasons objectively that the notion of ‘cause’ is only an hypothesis, it has no objective existence: all that objectively exists is a particular, often (but not always) repeated sequence of circumstances. Secondly, if this hypothesis is applied to existence as a whole, we cannot find a creator of it because each creator must have a creator before that creator, in a never-ending chain. (In fact, the futile notion of a never-ending chain of creators was one of the arguments used by Muslim theologians to explain the necessity of believing in God.)

The Creator must be Self-Subsistent and One, without like or equal.

It is self-evident that the Creator must be Self-Subsistent and One, without like or equal. If any created being can be said to ‘cause’ anything, that capacity to ‘cause’ was itself created within that being. Thus, no being in the universe can be said to be self-existent; rather, it owes its existence to the Creator who alone is Self-Existent as well as Self-Subsistent. It follows from the fact that the Creator alone truly creates that for each and every being He has determined all possible ‘causes’ and ‘effects’, all things whatever that come before or after it. Therefore, we speak of God as the Sustainer, who holds and gives life to His Creation from first to last. All ‘causes’ have their beginning in Him, and all ‘effects’ find their ending in Him. In truth, created things are no more than so many ciphers or zeros which, no matter how many we put in a series, add up to nothing, unless a positive ‘one’ is placed before the series to give it value. In just this way, the creation could have no real existence, nor any value, except by God.

What we call ‘causes’ have no direct or independent influence in existence, no direct or independent ‘effects’. It may be that we need to speak of ‘causes and effects’ in order to understand how, in a short space and over a little period of time, some part of the Creation is made (by the Mercy of God) intelligible to us and available to us for our use. But even this but confirms our dependence upon God and our answerability before Him. It is not God who needs ‘causes and effects’ to create; rather it is we who need ‘causes and effects’ to understand what He has created. He alone is the First and the Last, the Eternal, the Initiator and the Determiner—and all our busy little efforts after cause and effect are but veils between ourselves and His Majesty.

Let us then affirm once more: He, God, is One; God, the Self-Subsistent, Eternally-Besought-of-All; He neither begets nor was begotten; and nothing whatever is like unto Him.

Originally posted by Jagiello The message of the christendom was murdering, killing, torturing, burning, cozenage and some other smooth things for centuries.��� � Even a muslim wouldn't say that.How exactly did you figure that out??Give me ONE proof that Jesus proclamed murdering,torturing....I've read and heard many things agains Chrisindom but NEVER that Jesus spread ideas of murdering and torturing.In a world of murdering and torturing he spread the ideas of right the oposite.Have you read the bible.I doubt it because in�the whole New Testament is writen that "we shouldn't do to our comrade what we don't want he to do to us".Peace and Love-this is the message of Chrisindom,nomather how some people,in medieval especialy,interpretated it.You're statement that Jesus proclamed murdering and torturing is simply rediculous!!

Evidences???
To prove the existence of a Creator we do not need to look for evidence our existence is a proof.The prefect system, the delicate balance in the universe,the design of our bodies etc. all and each bear witness to the existence of an ALL-KNOWING, COMPASSIONATE,... Creator.
* The distance between the earth and the Sun is miraculous. If it were a bit further, there would be ice age forever. If it were a bit closer, we would all turn to ash.No type of life would exist here.
* The human eye is a miracle itself.
* Just as a great work of art, say a painting, shows (is a witness) us the artist. This magnificent order shows its ARTIST.Nature is a work of art.It cannot be the Artist.

Originally posted by Jagiello I think you didn't understand what i mean.I am a christian.But i hear people saying there is nothing good in being christian and that it is even stupid.I don't think it really metters weather Jesus Christ existed or not-it is the message of chrisindom that matters.The message of love and not hate,of peace and not war and if an atheist really tries to think about it he would come to the same conclusion.The problem of course is that it is harder to think than NOT to think , like with everythink else.