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Origins of the Afghans

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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Origins of the Afghans
    Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 09:50

Originally posted by katulakatula

Nice post Afghanan.One thing isn't clear to me though.U urself say that today's Afghanistan is composed of many ethnicities.R u interested in knowing our views on the origin of Afghanistan or of the Pashtoons.

My basis was from a historical standpoint on the word Afghan, and its origins.  The national term "Afghan" refers to all citizens of the country.

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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 09:51

Originally posted by Land of Aryan

Farsi???? Do u like Arabic name of ur language???
please use true one " PARSI "

Ironically, Pashtuns are the only ones in the country who refer to the language as Parsi.

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  Quote Rakhsh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 21:25
interesting, what does parsi or farsi matter?
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 19:57

I believe Farsi is the Arab corruption of Parsi (the original language).   Arabs do not have a "P" in their alphabet.

 

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  Quote AFG-PaShTuN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 00:02

THnak you heaps dear!

 

It was a great read!

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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2006 at 23:25
No Problem.
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  Quote cyrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 07:52
Thank you Afghanan,

This is what I think:

Pashtuns have political power where as Parsi speaking people dont, they have been singled out for the last 100 years and therfore Pashtun language has grown rapidly, one the reasons is Pakistan.

From the other side, there was a survey on BBC asking Iranians, Afghans and Tajiks if they like the Parsi triangle and the only people who didnt want it was Pashtun in Afghanistan, Tajiks and Iranians wanted it and Dari speaking ones as well but not Pashtu speaking.

Why is that ?

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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 09:18

Cyrus,

The first problem with Pashtuns and Parsi is that Pashto is a different language from Parsi.   If there was to be a Parsi literary/linguistic triangle it could threaten the native Pashto speaking populations of Afghanistan. 

The other problem Pashto speakers have with Farsi-speaking people is that a Pashtun is willing to learn Parsi, but Parsis are not willing to learn Pashto (because there was no need to), even though the founder of nation was Pashtun.  Ahmad Shah Abdali, the founder of the Durrani empire and Afghanistan was bilingual in both Farsi and Pashto.  The governments of Afghanistan were to enlist Pashto as a medium of higher education after King Amanullah Khans royal decree, and it was promoted for a time.  Unfortunately, the Soviet Invasion had stopped all plans of development and this has hurt the language more than anything.

In the meantime, in Pakistan where the war in Afghanistan did not destroy their infrastructure , the giant influx of Afghan refugees also helped a revival of Pashto literature, arts, and music there.

During the Civil War, the different factions were split on ethnic lines and language again became a hot issue.   The Pashtun factions blamed the Tajik factions of getting assistance from the Russians, India, and Iran while they received assistance from Pakistan, and Arab countries.  Today, whenever the issue of language arises, it is a contentious issue among all Afghans because Pashtuns do not want to see their language marginalized and many Uzbek or Persian speaking people do not want to speak the language of the people whom they fought during the Civil War.

I hope that explains some of the difficulties of language in Afghanistan to you.

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  Quote cyrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 16:20

Thank you many times my friend.

One question: I read that Pashtun is classified as Eastern Irani language.
What are your thoughts about this and what does this classification based on ?
I have many Pashtun friends and there are many common words in Pashtun with Parsi, Does it mean Pashtun is just another dialect or it was existed way before Parsi ?

Thank you.





Edited by cyrus
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 18:37

It means they have the same root. IE that they separated from each other and evolved indepentently some three thousand years ago.

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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 20:35
Originally posted by cyrus

Thank you many times my friend.

One question: I read that Pashtun is classified as Eastern Irani language.
What are your thoughts about this and what does this classification based on ?
I have many Pashtun friends and there are many common words in Pashtun with Parsi, Does it mean Pashtun is just another dialect or it was existed way before Parsi ?

Thank you.

Cyrus thank you for your reply. 

First thing we should understand is that Iranian language does not necessarily mean Persian.  Eastern Iranian is a language group that has existed alongside Western Iranian for over a millenia.  The most famous Eastern Iranian language was Bactrian, the language of Bactria.  Parsi and Bactrian both had the same root and were cousins to each other.  When the Arab invasion insued, the Arabs adopted Persian culture and spoke Farsi, while Bactrian was fast being replaced throughout Central Asia by the adopted language of the Arab conquerors.  Some related languages of Bactrian, (which were isolated from Bactrian proper for an untold amount of time), evolved into languages we call Eastern Iranian.

These languages include - Pashto/Pakhto, Roshani/Rokhani, Bartangi, Yidgha-Munji, Sanglechi/Ishkashmi, Wakhi, Bartangi, etc.  Most of these languages are spoken in small pockets throughout the Pamir mountains, witih Pashto being the most prevalent of all.

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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 21:26
Pashtu is closest to Avestan and Dari (spoken by zoroastrians in Yazd and not to be confused by what Persian is called in Afghanistan) read about it here
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  Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 06:51
I heard there's a Pashtoon tribe called Sarban-is it true? One of the Byzantine emperors once called Serbs-Sarbani...maybe there's a distant connection... 

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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 00:55

Sarban, Bitan, Ghurghusht, were supposedly the 3 sons of Qais, a characater that was in the Makhzani Afghani, which is supposed to be the geneology and origin of the Afghans written by Nematullah , a court scribe of the Moghal Emperor Jahangir around 1612.  This and other books like "Khulasat'ul Ansab" were written by descendants of Afghans in India who most likely did not have a good grasping of Pashto.  Most of these books were written in Persian actually.

The 3 sons of Qais were supposedly the patriarchs of the Pashtun tribes.  Sarban had a son named Sharkbun , who then had 2 or 3 sons (depending on which tribe you ask) and they gave rise to such tribes as : Popalzai (Sons of Popal), Alekozais (Sons of Alek), Barakzais, Achakzais, Sadozais/Durranis, etc.

Sarbans other son, Kharshbun, gave rise to tribes like Yusufzais, Ghoriakhels, Mohmands, etc.

There is much more tribes and it would take me very long to go through all of them so I'll leave it at that.

I would take the tribal geneologies with a grain of salt.

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  Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 06:14
Thanks for the info...
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 09:55
Originally posted by Afghanan

Sarban, Bitan, Ghurghusht, were supposedly the 3 sons of Qais, a characater that was in the Makhzani Afghani, which is supposed to be the geneology and origin of the Afghans written by Nematullah , a court scribe of the Moghal Emperor Jahangir around 1612.  This and other books like "Khulasat'ul Ansab" were written by descendants of Afghans in India who most likely did not have a good grasping of Pashto.  Most of these books were written in Persian actually.

The 3 sons of Qais were supposedly the patriarchs of the Pashtun tribes.  Sarban had a son named Sharkbun , who then had 2 or 3 sons (depending on which tribe you ask) and they gave rise to such tribes as : Popalzai (Sons of Popal), Alekozais (Sons of Alek), Barakzais, Achakzais, Sadozais/Durranis, etc.

Sarbans other son, Kharshbun, gave rise to tribes like Yusufzais, Ghoriakhels, Mohmands, etc.

There is much more tribes and it would take me very long to go through all of them so I'll leave it at that.

I would take the tribal geneologies with a grain of salt.

Nematullah, was a story teller at best not a historian or geneologist

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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 18:34

afghans come from many different ethnicities, but mostly they are of iranian stock:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_people

Pashtun

Main article: Pashtun

Pashtun or Pakhtun, are a warlike, fierce, and independent people that reside mainly in southern and eastern Afghanistan and western Pakistan. Considerable pockets also exist throughout other parts of Afghanistan. Smaller groups of Pashtuns are also found in Iran and India as well. Pashtun culture is ancient and much of it is yet to be recorded in contemporary times. There are many conflicting theories, some contemporary, some ancient, about the origins of the Pashtun people, both among historians and the Pashtun themselves. Most scholars agree that the Pashtuns are of Iranian stock and speak an eastern Iranian language. According to the writer W.K. Frazier Tyler writing in his book Afghanistan, "The word Afghan first appears in history in the Hudud-al-Alam, a work by an unknown Arab geographer who wrote in 982 AD." Until the advent of the modern Afghan state in the 18th century, the word Afghan had been synonymous with Pashtun.

Tajik

Main article: Tajiks

The Tajiks are amongst the oldest inhabitants of the region, and can trace their roots back to the original Iranian peoples that settled Central-Asia in ancient times, such as the Bactrians, Sogdians, and Parthians, as well as Persians who fled to Central-Asia during Arab Islamic expansion. The Tajiks also comprise the majority population of Tajikistan and are found in large numbers in Uzbekistan and Iran as well as the western Pakistan and Xinjiang province of China. A related group in Afghanistan known as the Farsiwan are often affiliated with the Tajiks, but are generally of the Shia sect and are mostly distinct from the Hazaras as the Farsiwans are a Mediterrean people and are basically almost identical to the Persians of Iran. Tajiks are, by contrast, considered the Persians of Central Asia.

Hazara

Main article: Hazara

Historically, the Hazara seem to have Turkic-Mongolian origins, but with some Caucasoid admixture from surrounding groups. Linguistically though the Hazara speak Dari, but their variant is interspersed with more Mongolian words, but this is also the case with many Turkic languages such as Uzbek. It may simply be the case that the Hazara are of Uighur Turkic origin as many Turks accompanied the Mongol armies or arrived in the region long before the Mongols. It is however commonly believed by many Afghans that the Hazara are descendants of Genghis Khan's army, which marched into the area during the 12th century. Proponents of this view hold that many of the Mongol soldiers and their family members settled in the area and remained there after the Mongol empire dissolved in the 13th century, converting to Islam and adopting local customs. The theory regarding a more Turkic origin for the Hazara has equal validity and the relatively small number of actual Mongols in comparison to Turks makes it more likely that the Hazara are descendents of Turkic invaders who were Persianized over time. Unlike most Afghans the Hazara are Shia, which has often set them apart from their neighbors.

Uzbek

Main article: Uzbek

The Uzbeks are the main Turkic people of Afghanistan and are found mainly in the northern regions of the country. Most likely the Uzbeks migrated with a wave of Turkic invaders and intermingled with local Iranian tribes over time to become the ethnic group they are today. By the 1500s the Uzbeks had settled throughout Central Asia and reached Afghanistan following the conquests of Muhammad Shibani. Most Uzbeks are Sunni Muslim and are closely related to the Turkmen who also can be found in Afghanistan.

Turkmen

Main article: Turkmen people

The Turkmen are the smaller Turkic group who can also be found in neighoring Turkmenistan. Largely Sunni Muslim, their origins are very similar to that of the Uzbeks.

Baluch

Main article: Baloch

The Baluch are another Iranian ethnic group that numbers around 200,000 in Afghanistan. The main Baloch areas located in Balochistan province in Pakistan and Sistan and Baluchistan province of Iran. Many also live in southern Afghanistan. They are most likely an offshoot of the Kurds and reached Afghanistan sometime between 1000 and 1300 BCE. Mainly pastoral and desert dwellers, the Baluch are also Sunni Muslim.

Nuristani

Main article: Nuristani

The Nuristani are an Indo-Iranian people, representing a third branch of independent of the Iranian and Indo-Aryan groups, who live in isolated regions of northeastern Afghanistan. Better known historically as the Kafirs of what was once known as Kafiristan (now called Nuristan), they were forcibly converted to Islam during the rule of "Iron" Amir Abdur Rahman and their country was renamed "Nuristan" or "Land of Light" as in the light of Islam. Many Nuristanis believe that they are the descendents of Alexander's Greeks, but there is a lack of genetic evidence for this and they are more than likely an isolated pocket of early Aryan invaders. They are largely Sunni Muslim.



Edited by prsn41ife
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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  Quote kingofmazanderan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 16:01

 

Just imagin it brothers if Afghanistan and turkmenistan kazakhstan and Uzbeckistan were back with iran.  That would make Iran one of the largest countries on the planet.  Or at least in the top ten i think.   Other countries with Indo Aryan people are Turkey and i guess thats all i can think of for now. 

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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 17:12
i will make a new thread about iranian people in asia.
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 15:00

Here is some more information about the Sassanian inscription of the word Afghan:

 

"...Some ancestors of the durrani and yousafzai tribes were men of the sassani courts. The "Shah Nama" of Firdausi as follows:

The mighty soldiers had gathered round the castle,
Armed with golden cudgels and golden helmets,
Their commander was karen kawgan,
Lead by the valiant general, awgan

When kaikhusro saw the battle of Turks
In which the sun shone no more on earth,
He glanced at awa and samkanian
Two pugnacious lions of the battlefield

Awa was Samkanian's son, and these tow persons were heroes of the era of Kaikhusro who are mentioned in the great battle with Afrasiab."

 

More Information located by clicking here: 

http://www.afghanan.net/pashto/pashtunwali/afghan.htm

 

--

 

Can anybody back up these claims from the Sassanian scripts?  I want to test its validity.

 

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