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Countries contributions to European civilisation
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Posts: 6003 		  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Countries contributions to European civilisation
    Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 17:58
And this first work about republic had nothing to do with british parliamentarism.


Did anyone claim it did?
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 18:07
so, now that we have made a rank system with cultural superior/inferior countries, now lets continue raking superior/inferior nations and jack off
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Posts: 2537 		  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 18:12

Originally posted by Cywr

And this first work about republic had nothing to do with british parliamentarism.


Did anyone claim it did?

Styrbjorn said that:

"The modern form of democracy mostly spread by the British parliamentarism derives from old Germanic social culture and the Englightenment"

So i just prooved that there were people writing about such things long before enlightement and that it wasnt connected with biritish parliamentarism or "old germanic social culture" but based on the experiences of polish parliamentarism.
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Posts: 6003 		  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 18:20
British Parliamentarianism goes back alot further than the enlightenment. And he is talking specificly about a particular model, namely, British Parliamentarianism, not Poland, in reponse to a Greek forumer, so you havn't added anything there 
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Posts: 2537 		  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 18:28

Originally posted by Cywr

British Parliamentarianism goes back alot further than the enlightenment. And he is talking specificly about a particular model, namely, British Parliamentarianism, not Poland, in reponse to a Greek forumer, so you havn't added anything there 

I just stressed that parliamentarism, liberty and equality wasnt somthing that was invented by the german, french or british philosophers and that idea of the strong parliamentary republic was fully described with details in other part of Europe. And that is why the works of Modrevius were in the 16th century well known in the whole europe. Notice the fact the first it was published in Basel and later almost everywhere. His works were being only discussed that time but his ideas came back in the times of enlightement.



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Posts: 6003 		  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 18:32
I don't think he claimed that, merely he stated that British style parliamentary Democracy (who's roots go back to just after the Norman invasion) is not a direct desendant of the Greek model, on the contrary, its inherantly different. If you want a modern version of the Greek model, go to Switzerland.
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 19:07
Originally posted by Mosquito


I just stressed that parliamentarism, liberty and equality wasnt somthing that was invented by the german, french or british philosophers and that idea of the strong parliamentary republic was fully described with detailsin other part of Europe. And that is why the works of Modrevius were in the 16th century well known in the whole europe. Notice the fact the first it waspublished in Basel and later almost everywhere. His works were being only discussed that time but his ideas came back in the times of enlightement.


First of all, I took up British parliamentarism because that's the by far most widely form of democracy spread. Secondly, that goes back much longer than any Polish thinker's ideas, has as you said nothing to do with that Polish republic (that never left the paper) and has its roots in old Germanic traditions. Magna Carta, dating from 1215, and the Enlightenment are steps on its way.

Modrevius isn't the root of all thoughts of ideas either, as you seem to imply, quite far from it. He was a follower of Erasmus and the parliamentary republic he spoke of was not a new idea, several city-states practiced it already and there were parliamentary monarchies around. He promoted and developed the ideas of others, and was one of many in a line of great thinkers, but not revolutionary.

Further, I realize there are several other examples, Sweden for example was a parliamentary "democracy" (as in voting rights and freedom of the press but quite far from modern standards) in 1720-1772, and the modern Scandinavian system is an upgrade of that, but no one have had near the influence of the British model, of obvious reasons.

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Posts: 2537 		  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 20:10

British parliamentarism begins in 1215 but none of the british philosophers cared to describe the idea of republic. "Utopia" (forgive me for shorting the title) of Morus was rather some kind of SF book. Erasmus was more concenrned about religion so i wouldnt call Modrevius just a follower of Erasmus.Whats more, for long time many of the English kings (especially Tudors) didnt care to ask parliament for opinion or were doing it only when were sure that parliament will support them. About british parliamentarism in modern meaning of this notion we can talk since the end of Cromwell.

And parliaments were common in the whole feudal Europe but most of them didnt survive the times when kings started to centralise their power. Unlike in Poland where since the end of 14th century parliament was strenghtening its position.

You also cant compare the cities-republics in Italy with national or feudal states. In fact in most of european countries cities were more or less independent from the feudal king and republican, had their own administration, law, courts, armies.

And affcourse i dont imply that Modrevius is the root of all thoughts. I just said that he was first philosopher in the early modern Europe who wrote book which completelly described republican system.

Also humanitarism in the times of enlightement wanted to make one criminal law for all the people while Modrevius was writing about it in the 16th century. And forgive me but if it was revolutionary in the 18th century it was even more revolutionary in the 16th century.



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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 20:50
Originally posted by Mosquito

British parliamentarism begins in 1215 but none of the british philosophers cared to describe the idea of republic. "Utopia" (forgive me for shorting the title)of Morus was rather some kind of SF book. Erasmus was more concenrned about religion so i wouldnt call Modrevius just a follower of Erasmus.
Whats more, for long time many of the English kings (especially Tudors)didnt care to ask parliament for opinion or were doing it only when were sure that parliament will support them. About british parliamentarism in modern meaning of this notion we can talk since the end of Cromwell.



Even your own quotation on your other post claimed he was a follower of Erasmus. Not that I'm saying he wasn't a secular writer, which he waa.
I never claimed that the British parliamentarism was the oldest, or the best, or the most good-looking, that was never my point. My point was that it's the most influential one.



And parliaments were common in the wholefeudal Europe but most of them didnt survive the times when kings started to centralise their power. Unlike in Poland where since the end of 14th century parliament was strenghtening its position.



True. However that has nothing to do with what I said.

BTW, about the strength of that parliament - do you know what we mean with the term "Polish parliament"?

You also cant compare the cities-republics in Italywith national or feudal states. In fact in most of european countries cities were more or less independent from the feudal king and republican, had their own administration, law, courts, armies.


I never compared anything, and you're wrong about the local independence anyway. Say Germany and Italy, and I'd agreed.edit:nevermind, we might be talking different periods here


And affcourse i dont imply that Modrevius is the root of all thoughts. I just said that he was first philosopher in the early modern Europe who wrote book which completelly described republican system.


He described one republican system, not the. Since republican systems existed it should be obvious the regulations of those existed as well.


Also humanitarism in the times of enlightement wanted to make one criminal law for all the people while Modrevius was writing about it in the 16th century. And forgive me but if it was revolutionary in the 18th century it was even more revolutionary in the 16th century.


Equality before the law existed in Sweden in the 16th century - that's one reason the local landowners were pissed at the Swedish takeover when the Order left. I'm pretty sure Sweden wasn't an exception. Still, I agree it's a radical and foresightful idea.

Anyway, I'm not saying Modrevius was a little nobody, just that he wasn't one of the great ones eg Locke, Montesquieu, Rosseau etc, if from no other reason than because he had mostly local influence.


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Posts: 984 		  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 02:26

 

Hey i would put England in the place of Greece. Greece belong to a lower category and it's contribution is overrated. Italy, France, England and Germany definitely on top.

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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 06:22
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by Spartakus

Stybiorn,cannot you get it?I am not saying that Hellens are superior,see my first reply,but you compared 2 things which in my opinion is wrong.

You're the one who don't get it. I responded to a post claiming England, France and Germany's high influence "a joke", thus claiming that Greece somehow had larger influence than these and asked him to elaborate. No one was comparing the sort of influence, just influence in general.
You  responded to justice(the forumer who said about Hellenic superiority),and to me.And your attitude in those responses is like i said the same thing,which i did not.
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 06:28
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by Spartakus

You cannot compare the Hellenic influence with influences concerning technology,because were really Hellens and the Hellenic civilization contributed was in the human spirit and arts.


Then how on earth can you dismiss the English, French and Germans when this was about influence and contributions in comparison to the Greeks, if you "cannot compare" them?
I have not dismissed anyone.
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 06:33
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by Spartakus

There is a small difference in the your meaning of my words.I said you cannot compare spirit influence with technology influence,it more proper to compare with the German,French,English SPIRITUAL influence.
 

Greece may have had huge incluence in ancient science and philosophy, but to say they have the major part of the forming of the modern West/Europe is ludicrous.
Have i said the contrary?
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 06:38

Concerning the Hellenic influence in Europe,taking only Ancient Hellas is wrong.There is also the Hellenic influence through the Byzantine empire,or if you like the Byzantine-Hellenic-Christian influence which is as significant as the influence of Ancient Hellas.
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 07:21

Originally posted by Spartakus

You responded to justice(the forumer who saidabout Hellenic superiority),and to me.And your attitude in those responses islike i said the same thing,which i did not.

Actually at first I thought it was the same guy who replied

Originally posted by Spartakus

I have not dismissed anyone.     

Have i said the contrary?

See above.
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 07:29
kk.
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Posts: 760 		  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 07:37
In architecture, I would say the big 3 are France, UK and Italy.

Greece made some good stuff but their buildings but the Romans, French and British beat all.

The roman architecture is all in vault and cupel, and the projection of applicated forces allowed by it was really the evolution that allowed aqueduct and massive and usefull structures.

The French architecture as far as the gothic architecture is tracked. Where the arrow arches work in compression and allowed to break all size records at those time (some cathedrals have a 45m tall choir).

GB, well think of the large suspension bridges, like the Clifton suspension bridge, submarine tunnels, ect....
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Posts: 804 		  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 07:44

In my opinion theres is no such thing that european civilization. If we want to sort countries by civilizations by any means then the typoligy of Huntington is much more correct.

 

 

 
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Posts: 2537 		  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 07:45

Originally posted by Exarchus

In architecture, I would say the big 3 are France, UK and Italy.

I would say in architecture the big 3 are:

1. Italy above the others

2 and 3: France and Germany, on the same equal position.

Altough the most influential were Italians.
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Posts: 6003 		  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 07:52
Hmm, for a whole France and English artitectural influence = the same thing, especialy the whole gothic thing.
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