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Atlantis' location

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  Quote rawand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Atlantis' location
    Posted: 22-Jan-2019 at 02:02
That was very interesting post.Thanks for sharing it.
Graduated from Soran University with First Class Degree with Honours in Computer Science.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2019 at 16:28

The Inca picture from the Coricancha depicts half a dozen to a dozen details of the Atlantis Account, some definite, some possible/uncertain, including:
- large rectangular plain & surrounding ditch & criss-crossing channels.
- concentric rings city (1 or 2 or 3 times)
- the hill dwelling of Clito (& Poseidon) (Akapana) (& temple & palace)?
(or the Atlas pillar, & 2 pillars of Hercules?)
- the sea (lake Titicaca)
- the canal (or river) (Dessaguadero)
- Poseidon & Clito, or twins?
- the cliff(s)?
- the mountains (&/or mines)?
- crops or forest/woodlands
- 7 islands of Persephone or 7 cities?
- the 2 crops a year (sun & moon / stars & clouds = "summer & winter")
- the faced south / sheltered from north / beyond north wind, &/or pole shift (the two + & x compass points crosses)
- oreichalc sheets coating/lining (the picture was from the Coricancha "golden palace" sheathed in gold plates).

See the picture here:
http://2rbetterthan1.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/inca_altar01.jpg
www.labyrinthina.com/inca.altar01
http://galacticdoor2011.blog.com/files/2011/12/gold-map-in-coricancha.jpg
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=277;image
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258222#msg258222
http://f.tqn.com/y/archaeology/1/S/7/_/1/coricancha-altar.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bjmO_QlWUWg/T7Hgo3qHuOI/AAAAAAAAADw/QAxP_NQvw3Q/s320/Altar+de+Coricancha.jpg

NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2019 at 21:51

Very interesting thanks Atlantean.
I agree that metals like iron might have been earlier than supposed. There are some records and some physical finds that do suggest this though the iron etc may have been abit rarer than in the later ages. Tubal-cain. Tubal in Genesis 10. Og of Bashan's bedstead. Jabin's chariots of iron. Oreichalc's connection with iron. Tutankhamun's iron dagger. Hittite iron.
The 4 ages were more "mystical" than materialistic. 4 world ages found in many ancient cultures.
As for oreichalc i am not sure if it is iron itself or an alloy including it. Oreichalc seems to be more usually connected with brass or gold-copper (Josephus, bible, etc).
Bronze & iron (ages) were maybe a pair (possibly like gold & silver).
Interesting that perhaps the red colour of oreichalc could be connected with rust.
Early ancients seeking metals....
(Is iron/steel good for precision cutting stone/rock? I didn't know that. Some other explanations have been sonics, Shamir, and flower-stone.)
There is some iron in Andean region, though the most major areas are the Indo-European area.
"there is a stone which when burned becomes iron and then when heated in a furnace with a certain earth (identified as smithonite (zinc ore)) distils pseudarguros (mock-silver identified as zinc) which combined with copper makes orichalc".

There is a match of the heliolithic/megalithic age with Peru and Atlantis and Tarshish.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 04-Jan-2019 at 22:15
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Atlantean35 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2019 at 11:29
I think the whole civilizational progression of stone age, copper age, bronze age, iron age, needs to be re-looked at. There's a certain granite block temple in Egypt with massive granite blocks that are cut to an amazing level of precision that can't be explained by the existence of only copper saws in those days. It's possible that a certain society had achieved iron age technology but then merely hid it from its surrounding civilizations. There is an indication for this in that, as soon as the bronze age collapse occurred, the iron age mysteriously starts. Mysterious at least in my view, because technology seems to have leaped forward during a dark age following the bronze age collapse. A possible interpretation in my view is that a certain hidden source of technology had imparted bronze and agriculture on the surrounding primitive humans, setting them on the course of civilization. But then it all collapsed, leading to mass starvation and suffering. Our of a sense of guilt perhaps, this hidden society had released the iron technology to the surrounding groups. Perhaps this is Atlantis. Perhaps they had reached the iron age, long before the surrounding civilizations, maybe even when these surrounding people were still cavemen. Because to cut granite block, you'd have to be out of the copper age or it'd be a serious mystery how they were able to cut those blocks on a large scale.

Orichalcum is described as brilliant, but also red, as its name would imply (ori: brilliant, sun, rising. chalcum: copper, red metal). It's also been mentioned in some accounts as being a white metal. Here's the thing. Iron starts as a brilliant white metal, then as it oxides, turns into a red encrusted metal. Orichalcum could just be a primitive name for iron, which would seem to be wrong if we think of Atlantis as a bronze age civilization. But maybe they were in the iron age way before everyone else but kept it well hidden.

When the ancient Egyptians explained the metal in question to the Greeks, they probably called it a brilliant/shiny red and white metal. This was probably how it was described in Egyptian records and sources. (Its essentially known that the Greeks learned about Atlantis from the Egyptians.) If we try to think about how it would be originally described by the Egyptians, not as "orichalcum" but as a list of properties, we can get a sense that they might have been referring to something closer to the properties of iron.

I'll repeat that I'm basing this on the mysterious beginnings of the iron age and the mysterious precision cuttings of the massive granite blocks in the Egyptian granite temple. I think there is a chance of a hidden iron age society, like some sort of ancient hidden group overseeing the developments of the other civilizations. And that its possible this group starts in Atlantis, in the Nile River delta. An area that was a virtual fortress and isolated, perfect for developing technologically and rising above a primitive state (As I mentioned in the earlier post in this thread, the geographic properties of this delta region).


Edited by Atlantean35 - 04-Jan-2019 at 11:52
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2019 at 17:22
Yes there are other "sunken"/flooded cities and other earthen mound cities but Atlantis can only be one and that one has to match all the details of the Account (including size, distance, direction, high mountains. large plain, elephants, civilisation there, date, etc) better than other sites. If the quality and quantity evidences i have given are not enough then i'm flabbergasted. "It takes time to get through defences"? I too myself previously wanted Atlantis city to be elsewhere but i was forced to accept it is Tiahuanaco because of the stark unqiue matches including the hill/Akapana, the rings, the placement midway between 2 highest peaks, etc. I looked everywhere else but couldn't find a match for combination of plain and mountains and cicular city etc.
You have alot of good ideas and info/knowledge, i just/only don't agree on the location of Atlantis that is all. I have been researching it off and on for 20 years this year, and only found the city a couple/few years ago. Jim Allen and David Fasold and one or two others were almost spoton right before me. It might be interesting discussing earl Egypt with you since i agree it has some part in earliest historical origins (though it is not Atlantis itself). Menes might have died in Atlantis/America (land of sunset, concentric city in his ebony label).

Oreichalc.

The Atlantis Account mentions that Atlantis city & island had the metals "gold, silver, & oreichalc", and/or "brass, tin, & oreichalc" (which perhaps corresponds with "red, white, & black"?) Oreichalc is an unknown metal. It is said in the Account that it was the most valuable except for gold.

Oreichalc is said to have been "reddish" and/or "gleaming/sparkled like fire". One source says was a white oreichalc. It has been suggested that there was two sorts of [orichalc or brass]?
The Atlantis accounts say that oreichalc was a metal that was mined/natural, and was also smelted/invented (made from combining calmia/zinc-oxide or pseudarguros/zinc and chalcos/copper accoring to some other sources). (Thus orichalc can't be amber as some have suggested. Amber was called 'elektron' & 'glass', and was "fished from the sea".)
Or(e)i-chalc(um) means "gold/gleaming/superior" or "mountain", plus chalcos "copper/bronze", or "belonging to heaven", or calcos "gold", or colchicum "iron-ore", and it seems to be related to the (aor) panchalkon of the Odyssey. Aurichalcit is "brass" in modern Greek, and some sources suggested that orichalc may be like bronze, though other sources say it is not or can not be bronze. Jesus feet were oreichalc/"brass" in Revelation/Apocalypse, and some temple artefacts were oreichalc in Josephus. The Atlantis war is considered to have been during the Bronze/Brazen/Brass Age. Some reckon orichalc was an alloy of gold, silver and copper. Orichalc seems similar to findrine "between silver & bronze" in Celtic, and ormolu "gold-like alloy of copper, zinc & tin", and Corinthian bronze (alloy of gold, silver & copper)?

Match of the "mountain/heaven" meaning with our Atlantis location:
- The Andes are among World's major/highest mountains, and qualify as near heaven (like Atlas' temple of spheres, and the pillar of heaven).
(Compare 'Chang Sang Feng' "alchemist residing in the mountains" in ancient Chinese?)

Match of brass/bronze/copper/zinc/tin with our Atlantis location:
- The Andes/Peru is one of the Americas & World's most major/richest deposits/sources of copper/tin/zinc (refs include Collins Atlas).
- Ternary (copper/arsenic/nickel) bronze I-shaped cramps, poured molten metal cramps at Tiahuanaco/Tiwanku?
- Peruvian tumbaga (gold-copper alloy)
- gilded-copper (Sipan)
- copper metallurgy Norte Chico.
- brass/tin/zinc & other alloys in the Crespi collection
- The name Andes might be related to the word antis "copper"?
- "metalic objects especially copper & bronze at Tiawanaku".
- Sicthin in 'Lost Realms' gives evidences that Akapana/Tiahuanaco was a copper/bronze/tin centre (small green pebbles, retaining boulders/walls turned green)
- Titicaca's name may be from Titi(kalla) "(stone/rock of) a metal -- either lead or tin" and/or mean "tin/lead crag/rock".
- Mesopotamian place-name Anaku "tin-land", which was "beyond the upper sea (Mediterranean)", is maybe connected with Wanaku (lost city in southern Titicaca) and Tiwanaku/Tiahuanaco.
- A source i didn't record mentioned unusual alloys in the pre-Columbian Americas (which sound similar to unusual alloys mentioned in Africa in another source).
- "Bronze Age America" (Barry Fell)?
- the inverse/downwards spade symbol in Peruvian pictures might stand either for mining or for Poseidon's carving of water rings of city?

Match of the gold meaning of orichalc, and/or of the gold also mentioned in the Atlantis Account with our location:
- Peru and Mexico are famous for their gold lusted by the Conquistadores.
- Eldorado "gilded man".
- Coricancha? (Cori/Guaracy = "gold/sun". The ancients connected red/fire/sun/gold.)
- Uru placenames in the ancient Andes (Sitchin). (Uru can mean "gold".)
- "gold edging" mentioned in website on Coricancha/Cuzco temple/temples).
- The Crespi collection includes some gold.
- "red gold fever", Chuquicamata, Peru/Bolivia/Chile (refs Jim Allen, wiki).
- "yellow star" (Tiahuanaco gateway, Bellamy)?
- The two colours yellow/gold and blue feature in quite a few Andean images.

Match of copper/brass &/or gold with our location:
- "gold is a by-product of copper/zinc production".
- tumbaga "gilded-copper/gold-copper" alloy of Peru/Bolivia (J Allen).
- gilded-copper of Sipan (Readers Digest).
- AuAgCu of Chavin (Mattievich).
- Peruvian "mythology" mentions 3 metals/castes of gold, silver and copper.
- Orejona/Orejones ear plugs?

(Some scholars have connected oreichalc with amber and tears of god/goddess. In Peruvian gold and silver were tears of the sun and moon?)

Colchicum "iron-ore" could connect with Colchis which one source located in the Peru area?

Of course there are some other places in the ancient world associated with these metals such as Mexico (Sitchin), Cornwall, Cassiterides, Rio Tinto, Edremit, Colchis, Sinai, Solomon's mines, Dophkah, Irem the "city of brass/columns", Altai, Indonesia (where the "Sumerians got their metals from"), etc, but these places dont match all the details of Atlantis in the Account.

The recent Sicily CuZn(NiPbFe) find might be related to Atlantean oreichalc, but it does not prove that Atlantis was in that region because it does not match all the details of the Atlantis Account (including size, direction, distance, date, large plain, high mountains, elephants, etc), while our location does match most all of the identification details?

One of the possible meanings of Tarshish is "mine, (to) smelt, smelting plant, metal refinery, refinery, furnace", "a type of (semi) precious gemstone/yellow jasper/beryl/chrysolite / topaz, amber", which might be connected with Orichalc? Tarshish &/or Kittim could be connected with Atlantis/Peru or Mexico (Sitchin) or Tartessos....

Evidences of metal sheets coating/lining as mentioned in the Atlantis Account are also found in our site's location, eg:
- sheet gold Chavin?
- sheet metal Chimu?
- nail holes & grooves in stone blocks at Pumapunku/Tiwanaku (Alford)?
- golden panels niche Tiahuanaco?
- the Coricancha "golden palace" sheathed in gold plates, or Temple of the Sun or "golden temple covered with gold plates" of Cuzco?
- Gold & silver plates lined walls of temple of Pachacamac?
- Golden enclosure Tumbes?



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 03-Jan-2019 at 17:28
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Atlantean35 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2019 at 09:44
There were other known cities from as late as the Greek Ptolemaic period of Egypt that have since sank into the waters in the Nile River Delta (ie. Herakleion). In the past, the entire Nile River Delta was known to flood, so the earliest inhabitants would have first learned to build earthen mounds. This may have been what eventually inspired the pyramid building, as it follows a natural progression. They didn't have some high ground they could move to in the delta. If they wanted to stay in the delta, they had to build earthen mounds, or their own high ground. Eventually, this led to pyramids.

It's probable that the Nile Delta had animals in enclosures. The unique geography would have enabled this. Surrounded by endless desert, it was a natural enclosure, which made it so that animals could be utilized. An enclosure is the first, important step for people to be able to utilize animals. And the Nile Delta had that naturally.


Edited by Atlantean35 - 03-Jan-2019 at 09:51
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2019 at 23:18

Cisterns.

The Atlantis Account says that Atlantis city had cisterns.

Tiahuanaco is pointed out in a number of sources as having water cisterns/drains/pipes, and/or "elaborate drainage systems & conduits"! (Refs include photographic proof in Daniken, etc.)
Tiahuanaco had "several springs some of which show vestiges of having been enclosed and provided with conduits of cut stone in ancient times".
Tambomachay aqueducts?

 -----

Hot & cold springs.

Atlantis capital city had 2 springs, 1 hot, & 1 cold, and it is said that "they loved a hot bath". The hot spring points to a place near a faultline or volcano, and this somewhat narrows down the possible locations in the world. Our site in Peru is on a faultline and near a volcano (Khapia).

Tiahuanaco (Atlantis capital city) itself had "several springs some of which show vestiges of having been enclosed and provided with conduits of cut stone in ancient times".

Peru is renowned for hot springs. Examples of hot/cold springs/fountains in Peru/Bolivia include: Putina hot springs; hotsprings Chivay / Chivay thermal baths; hotsprings of Ayacucho, Cajamarca, Colca lodge, near Macchu Picchu / Aguas Calientes, Atacama; Tambomachay aqueducts/bath/spa? Medicinal underground waters Arica? Arica "eternal spring"? medicinal/curative fountain of youth at Carhuaz? water fountains/baths of Pisac? 'Fountain of the Incas' / sacred fountain Posada del Inca (Island of the Sun)?

Other places in nearby areas &/or elsewhere in South America (the large island of Atlantis) with hot/cold springs include: Tulcan &/or Salinas (Ecuador), "275 springs in Chile" (including the largest Liquine, 7 lakes, Atacama, & Puyehue lake), Rio Hondo & Cacheuta (Argentina).

Of course there are other places in the world with hot &/or cold springs/baths such as Disko island (Greenland), USA has alot of springs place-names in maps, Champagne/boiling lake (Dominica), El Pandeno (Mexico), Rincondelavieja (Costa Rica), Deception island (Antarctica), the (mid-)Atlantic, Bath, Portchester, Baden, Athens had one spring, Persian Gulf, etc, but Atlantis can only be in one place and that place must match all the details of the Atlantis Account (including size, direction, distance, date, large plain. high mountains, elephants, etc).

Examples of baths in Peru/Bolivia:
bath of the princess, Ollantaytambo?
baths of Boza?
baths/water fountains Pisac?
Tambomachay aqueducts/bath/spa?

 -----

10 (5 pairs of twins) kings.

The Atlantis account says that the founder Poseidon begat 5 pairs of twin sons who became the heads of dynasties of kings of 10 regions of the large island of Atlantis.

Our Atlantis city site Tiahuanaco, and Atlantis large island South America has matches for the twins, and set of five, and ten kings.

(Firstly one should notice the possible connections between these:
9/10 worlds/trees Eddaic
9/10 avataras Vishnu
10 kings of Atlantis
9/10 bows/arcs of the world in Egyptian.
12 divisions Amenti/Aaru/Urani/Tuat.
12 kings of Scheria/Phaeacia.
12 labours Hercules.
12 pillars Hercules.
12 books Homer.
13 Greeks descended from Hercules (Plutarch)?)

Twins/pairs in Peruvian/Bolivian/Andean:
Chucuito ruled by 2 equipotent chiefs,
federation of villages each divided into 2 moities,
little ceramic stone bulls on rooftops always in pairs (Titicaca/Peru)?
woman flanked by 2 twin sons in Crespi collection figure?
2 cities Huari/Wari & Tiwanaku/Tiahuanaco?
Viracocha adopted 5 pairs of twin sons, (Viracocha with 2 servants?)
5 figures on 2 sides of central figure Tiahuanaco gateway of the sun,
20 months (of 18 days) Peru & Mexico (2 x 10?)
King and nobles of Chanchan (Chimu) "descended from 2 stars".
Tupi & Guarani? Witoto & Zaparo? Quechua & Aymara? Yahgan & Ona?
Quat & Iae?
"Bachue always bore quadruplets or sextuplets"?
2 creatures in the concentric circles in the El Dragon picture (Chanchan, ref 'Vanished Civilisations')?
2 groups Hananzaia & Hurinzaia, or Arasaya & Masaya at Tiwanaku, and in dancers festival.

Sets of five in Peruvian/Bolivian/Andean:
Viracocha adopted 5 pairs of twin sons.
5 figures flanking right & left side of central figure Tiahuanaco gateway of the sun,
5 Samptni deities Urus?
5 head feathers?
5 types ceramics North Peru?
5 major harbours Taquile?
5-toed foot on Calango stone?
5 fountains?
larger islands of the Uros house about 5-6 or10 families,

Sets of (9 or) 10 (or 12) in Peruvian/Andean:
9 kings, numbers 4-15 Peruvian kinglist?
9 forges?
9 niches temple Macchu Picchu?
9th inca rebuilt temple sun?
9/10 [icons/sephiroth] in Coricancha altar picture?
larger islands of the Uros house about 5-6 or 10 families,
Viracocha adopted 5 pairs of twin sons (= 10).
10 communities on Amantani,
10 kings Naymlap to Fempellec / 10th king after Naymlap,
10 walled citadels/structures/districts Chan Chan (Marcahuamachuco),
10 kings Taycanamo dynasty,
terrace of 10 niches Ollantaytambo/[Tiahuanaco?],
[10 (false) windows?]
10 months of 29 days?
10 dots / 10 diagonal lines plaque from Cuenca?
10 headed snake Amazon,
10 ships Paraiba inscription.
20 months (of 18 days) Peru & Mexico (2 x 10?)
about 10 on the crown of Tata_Pancho?
11 icons/pillars/months Tiahuanaco,
Akakor map has 11 sites/peoples or 13/26 cities (though supposed to be a fake)?
11 on gateway?
pottery paintings upto 11 colours?
"11 gates &/or el Rocque / 12th gate"?
12 with Viracocha on gate?
12 braids of hair Tiahuanaco?
12 wards Cuzco
12 gods/pillars (legend of Nyamlap/green idol, Ecuador)
pedrade 12 angulos / 12 angled stone Cuzco?
"12 faces covered by a solar mask & 30 running figures" (calendar)?
12 sentries of gold & silver?
"12 heads of the meander" Tiahuanaco (Bellamy)?
13th Inca?
13 towers Chankillo?
13 peaks Condoriri Massif/Illampu/Sorata?

Of course some other nations/cultures had/have 2s, or 5s, or 10s too such as los lunas decalogue stone, 10 human skeletons 'Moab man' (Cretaceous), 13 villages Chaco Canyon (Pueblo), 13th age Maya, "Amatitlan = 9", 10 kings Maya, 12 heavens Toltecs, 13 lords of the day / 9 lords of the night, god 9-Wind, 10 countries Mu, 9 stages pyramid Chichen Itza, 12 paths through the sea, 5 lakes Valley of Mexico, 10 kings Canaries or Azores, double kingship Canary Islands, 2 x 5 stones Stonehenge, 2 co-kings Saxons, 10 curiae Rome, 2 consuls Rome, 2 kings Sparta, dynasty of 10 god-kings Egypt, 10 steps throne of Osiris in Duat, 9/10 arcs/bows world (Egyptian), 5/9 roads/circles/coils Mehen, 5 cities Philistines, 5 cities Siddim, 10 patriarchs bible, 10 horns beast in bible, 10 kings Adites, Su-dasa versus 10 kings/kingdoms (Mahabharata), 5 clans Vedic, 5 pandevas, 10 emperors Chinese myth, fleet of 10 canoes Maori, battle of 5 forts Maori, 9 layers existence/creation Tuamotuan, etc, but Atlantis can only be one site and that site has to match all the details of the Account. Some of these were colonies of Atlantis.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 02-Jan-2019 at 23:42
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2019 at 17:44

Cliff/cliffs match:

(Note: I am not sure until i am able to re-check different translations whether there is confusion between the "cliff/cliffs" &/or "precipitous/high" &/or "as if shorn with a knife" &/or "falling sheer to the sea" mentioned in different sources?)

Matches for the cliff/cliffs at our Atlantis city/plain site in Peru:

- The cliff/s may match either the "crest" &/or plateau Kimsa Chata &/or Puna on the right/east side of Tiahuanaco (blog.world-mysteries.com/science/ancient-ruins-of-tiwanacu-and-pumapunku/), and/or the similar ridge/flanks/peak/height Quimsa-Chata &/or Serrania Machaca on the left/west side.
Kimsa Chata / Quimsa-chata ("3 mountains") is 15 km or 10-12 miles southeast of/from [Tiahuanaco or Titicaca] roughly matching the radius of Atlantis city?
The stones of central Tiahuanaco were "transported tens of miles from the nearest quarries" "some ten miles away".
A quarry 10 km away [from Tiahuanaco].

- cliffs Arica? Morrode Arica steep tall hill?
- raised beaches Ancon?
- Sheer cliff/bluff(s) above/overlooking lake Titicaca in some places (photos, descriptions, satellite pictures).
- cliffs on left/right of Ilave Peninsula?
- cliffs on left/right of the Puno bay / bahia Paucarcolla area?
Taquile &/or the 2 arms of Capachica peninsula & Carina/Callanca in front of bahia Paucarcolla?
- cliff at Amaru/Aramu Muru/Muro ("stargate" site near Juli)?
- looked like cliffs at Huanascuyo?
- section of rock Kenko?
- Colca canyon twice as deep as Grand Canyon?
- cliffs Macchu Picchu?
- sheer rock Pampa de Anta?

- The Sillustani inscription (from n.w. Titicaca) shows the concentric circles city (the "spiral") and possibly the cliff/s (the wedge shape)? See:
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258214#msg258214
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=290;image
- The Inca picture from the Coricancha  depicts half a dozen to a dozen details of the Atlantis Account including possibly the cliff(s) (the wavy/squiggly line or "Ilyapa"/"Rayo"/"serpent")?

There are other places in the world with cliffs, such as
Dingli Cliffs in Malta, German/Baltic coasts, Albion, Faeroes, steep areas along the underwater true continental edges of eastern North America, Grand Canyon, Pueblo Bonito, off Cuba/Hispaniola/Virgin islands, Sierra Nevada Colombia? etc, but they don't fit all the details of the Account (distance, direction, large size, elephants, large plain, etc).

Red, white & black match:

The Atlantis account mentions "red, white and black" cliffs/stones/buildings.

From various sources it seems that "red, white & black" is not just geological but also castes or races, and world ages:

red, white, black (Atlantis, German).
"gold, silver, oreichalc" (Atlantis),
"brass, tin, oreichalc" (Atlantis).
gold, silver, bronze/copper (Peru, Daniel, Olympics).
Thracian/red, German/white, Ethiopian/red (Hoeh).
Shem, Japheth, Ham (Judaeo-Christian).
Zeus/Jupiter/Ammon, Poseidon/Neptune/Atlantis, Hades/Pluto (Classical)?

Donald MacKenzie showed matches between the 4 colours, metals, world ages, world quarters/winds, castes.

Peru/Bolivia where our Atlantis capital city, & South America our Atlantis large island has matches for "red, white & black":
- top, middle, bottom rows of Tiahuanaco gateway?
- red permian rocks at Tiwanaku?
- red sandstone, &  green/grey andesite stones (Tiwanaku)?
- 3 bands (gold, silver, copper) in mountains by Titicaca?
- "triple striped red yellow green" [Titicaca]?
- red, white & black traditional dress code Taquile?
- red white & blue steps at church of Paucarcolla?,
- Paucar "multicoloured"?
- Negrone (Puno Bay)?
- it looked like there may be red/white/black stones in the Muniyunguyo/Khapia area, and in the Huanascuyo/Ilave peninsula in satelite pictures?
- "3 parts Coricancha picture [heaven, air, world/underworld]"?
- 3 eggs of gold, silver & copper of Peru myth.
- Kunturwasi red, black, yellow, pink, malachite green (ref Wikipedia)?
- red white black stones wall/building Llachon?
- the Bolivian flag (Jim Allen)?
- red, white, black stones at Pampa Aulagas (Jim Allen)?
- "Pottery recovered from Las Ánimas complex [Norte Chico, north Chile] has linear designs painted with white, red or black."
- Tierra Dentro red, white, black (Colombia)?
- "the first people were divided into tribes according to their colour" (Kadevo, Brazil)?

Some other places in the world do of course also have red white and black too, eg:
each layer of a different kind and colour of clay in Olmec trenches?
Tezcatlipoca white & red striped legs, & black face/deity?
Quetzalcoatl from the red and black land?
Tlillan Tlapallan black land, red land?
writing 2 colours black & red?
Mimbres pottery was (red,) white and black.
One source said Iceland has black lava.
"Canarians decorated their temple with red, white and black rock, the colours of tufa, pumice and lava".
"pre-Roman structures near Gibraltar that incorporate red, white and black blocks in their construction."
German & Nazi flag had red, white & black.
"The cliffs of Santorini are also known to display red, white and black rock."
"red, white and black bricks were used extensively in Catal Huyuk."
5 black/roads & 4 red/fire Mehen (Egypt).
writing 2 colours black & red (Egypt)?
the red land and black land (Egypt).
However, Atlantis can only be in one place and that place has to match all the details of the Account better than other places. Some of these places were colonies.

(Have to check where these where:
Manoas/Shipibo red & black decorated pottery?
yellow red white Tambo Colorado walls?
2 different rock types Cutimbo Chullpas?)



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 02-Jan-2019 at 23:45
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2019 at 22:40

Below is another post back on the location of the large island. Remaining things to post on on the area of the capital city include the red white & black, the 10 kings, the cliffs, the springs, the orichalc, etc. (Which things we have already previously written on but need to rewrite better as we have done with the other posts above.) If anyone has any particular detail of Atlantis island/city that they would like us to address first then let us know. I can't guarantee that i will be able to do anymore though as it depends on my situation, but we have already given alot of stark matches evidences.

Atlantis South or North or Middle/Central?

Evidences for South not North include:
- Atlanteans invaded up to Tyrrhenia & Libya is alternatively translated "from Europe to Tyrrhenia and from next Libya to Egypt", which indicates that Atlantis was next to Africa/Libya.
- Diodorus Siculus says Atlantis was "out in deep off Libya a number of days sail to west".
- Gades & Atlas were in Europe/Spain (north) & Africa (south) respectively not the other way around. The Atlas montains are roughly analogous mirror image of the Andes. (Gadeira might possibly be Agadir not Gades/Cadiz?)
- South America is centered further east than North America, and Africa sticks out further west than Europe.
- A couple/few early sources like Strabo seem to indicate that Atlantis was to the south-west of Europe & Spain. (Strabo called Spain the "sacred promontory". Strabo's 1000 stades extension of Spain. An early European anthropomorphic map of Europe had the crown on south-western-most Spain. Hesperus?)
- Stonehenge was damaged on the south-west side.
- In Kirchir's map Atlantis seems more like South America than North America. (Kampanakis' Atlantis also looks like South America.)
- Atlantis was "then under the sun" which may relate to either that Tiahuanaco was once on the equator in a Pole Shift map, or that the southern hemisphere is the sunny side to the northern hemisphere?
Atlantis and Meropis having good sunny climates may also point to southern hemisphere (and Pacific)? ("The climate of Atlantis was once extremely good; a gentile breeze blew constantly...." Critias 115, 118; Dio Sic 5:19. "They had 2 harvests a year, a winter one ... and a summer one...." / "Twice in a year they gathered the fruits of the earth - in winter ... and in summer...." Crit 119a.)
- The southern hemisphere and south-west quadrant of the world has more water and less land than the northern hemisphere and north-east quadrant, matching Atlantis' association with the Atlantic, and the "real ocean", and Poseidon, and water.
- The Egyptians and Arabs had south as "up/top".
- It has been found in recent decades that in the Americas the oldest remains are in the south and east not the north and west (refs include S Compton 'Exodus Lost', etc).
- Dowsing results of K & K Bolton for Atlantis were South Atlantic and Antarctica.
- West Africa has seeming ties with Atlantis (eg Olokun, Tenbuch, unusual alloys).
- The North pole was previously in North America. North America was half covered in ice at the time of Atlantis.
Some maps show the world equator was previously angled (westsouthwest to eastnortheast) (eg Zanne's map).
- Atlantis faced south and was sheltered from the north wind.
- Assyrian depictions of the Toakkari Sea Peoples show them bearing the South American fan-palm (ref Fitzgerald-Lee 'Great Migration').
- Andean is the oldest agriculture and high culture / civilisation in the Americas. Tiahuanaco has been called the cradle of American man/civilisation (refs include Kolosimo).
- Atlantis was "remotest" which may match Peru being furtherest west and being one of the only ancient civilisations in the southern hemisphere or tropic of Capricorn (most others being in the northern hemisphere and tropic of cancer latitude bad or 1040 belt).
- Atlas bearing up the earth &/or the heavens/sky fits the (southern-&-western-most) ends of world.
- Hyperborea "beyond the north wind" could mean southern rather than far north?
- Herodotus hinted at Hypernotians (reversed of Hyperboreans).
- Opposite continent could be western and/or southern.
- Atlantis had Elephants, and elephants are found in India and Africa (and prehistoric Americas). (Also compare ivory from Keftiou "Crete" in Egyptian. Though Hannibal took elephants over the alps, and though Eurasian mammoths are related.)
- Scheria/Phaeacia is disputed whether northern or southern (Spanuth). They are said to have had darkish skin?
- It is supposed that the oldest cultures are Hamite/Cushite / Eurafrican/Mediterranean / Australoid/African / black/red.
- Opposite the pillars of Hercules at Huelva/Gades/Gibraltar would be southwest not northwest?
- Ethiopian sea and Erythrean "red" sea are south not north Atlantic.
- Statue in Azores points west with Quechua (Inca/Peruvian) word cati/cates "this way".
- In the 3 zones of Enlil north, Anu middle, Enki/Ea south, Atlantis would match Enki?
- Piri Reis map mainly shows South (& Central) America and not any much of North America (except Florida)?
- "Necho's fleet went south" ["searching for Atlantis"]?
- Atlantis could only be in the Americas (or Armorica plate). We searched all around the Americas and only Peru matches all the details of the Account (civilisation, mountains, plain, the sea, etc), nowhere else in North/Central/South America matches.
- Some maps show the city/plain of  Atlantis on the south(-west) side of the island, some show it on the south(-east) side.
- [Swift's/Dante's] Southern Cross seen in ancient northern hemisphere?

Alternative evidences for North:
- "5 days sail west of Britain". (Compare modern Atlantic crossing records.)
- "not far to the west of Europe ... memory of a larger island" (Proclus).
- "in the Atlantic sea, on the coast of Europe" - Marcellinus.
- The Atlantis Plain being in the mid-point of the island could match Caribbean/Mesoamerica?
- Ha-Saponi "northerners" of Jewish sources?
- Spanuth claimed that Atlantis and the Sea Peoples were "northern", the latter because they came from the 9th bow/arc of the 10 bows/arcs of the Egyptian world, and came from the pillar/pillars.
- Hyperborea. However this may not be the same place as Atlantis, and it could alternatively mean southern not far north?
- Kaptara "were the pole star stands at its zenith" of Assyrian (and Caphtor of the bible, and Keftiou of Egyptian)?
- Maps centred on the North Pole (Symmes' flat earth Zetetic projection, Superman, Father Christmas, Nato/Uno, Denderah zodiac, Great Pyramid geodesics, north as "up/top").
- Scheria/Phaeacia is disputed whether northern or southern (Spanuth).
- The Aryans/Barbarians usually came from the north.
- North/Central America is more directly opposite the Gibrlatar straits. (Plus if there was a continental shift then South America would have been even more further down. Though we have shown in previous posts that there is confusion re the pillars of Hercules, etc.)
- No crossing of equator mentioned in the Atlantis Account? (Though the "then uner the sun" might hint at it?)
- Mt Olympos in the north?
- Japheth was northern?
- murex purple from Mexico (ref SC Compton 'Exodus Lost').
- 2 mountains ranges upliftings in the western side of North America could mean that North America could have shifted twice? Ditto re North America is centred further west than South America is. (Whereas South America only has one range and is centred further east.)
- Atlantis was "between Asia & Libya" in some translations theories, which could better fit North America (between n.e. Asia & n.w. Africa).

Evidences for middle/central:
- The 3 large islands of Zeus/Jupiter/Ammon, Poeidon/Neptune/Atlantis and Hades/Pluto in the western sea might match North America, South America and Antarctica?
- Peru was once on the equator according to pole shifts maps.
- "whatever the extremity of winter frost or summer sun does not prevent" / "where excessive cold or heat does not prevent it" (Timaeus 23a).
- One or more Classical sources say Atlantis was in the "west/western (sea/ocean)".



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 01-Jan-2019 at 22:43
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2019 at 16:16

I just have to go back abit to post this one which i didn't post before in the first half on the large island's location.

Atlantis a separate (large) (is)land-mass to Europe, Africa, Asia:

- Atlantis was an "island". The account also says "the whole island" (Tim 25b). ("the islands of Atlantis" Critias 109a.)

- "a remote land in the middle of the ocean" (Timagenes).

- Atlantis was west of Gades and the Atlas mountains. Atlantis can't be Europe because Atlas was in Africa.

- Diodorus Siculus says Atlantis was "out in deep off Libya a number of days sail to west" / "many days sailing across the Atlantic".

- The Account implies that Atlantis was a separate "island" to "Europe & Libya", "Europe & Asia", "Asia & Libya"?

- They invaded "upto Tyrrhenia (Italy) & Libya (nw Africa)" or "from next Libya"?

- "the whole of the land which is within the straits",
"all those who dwelt/lived outside/inside the pillars" (Crit 108e).

- "against the whole of Europe & Asia" / "attack the cities of Europe & Asia" (Tim 25a).

- Atlantis was "larger than Libya & Asia" (Tim 25a; Crit 109a; Tertullian). Meropis was larger than Europe & Libya & Asia (Theopompus).

- Atlantis "sunk", Europe/Africa/Asia didn't/aren't.

- "an extensive net of canals such as was never seen in Europe".

- Atlantis was "at a distant point in the Atlantic".

- The Account implies that Atlantis was in the outer "real ocean" not in the inner Mediterranean sea indentation (Flem-Ath, compare geopolitics)?

- Kirchir's map has Atlantis in Atlantic in the west.

- "Atlanteans were unmixed with other mortal stock" (Crit 121).

- "5 days sail west of Britain".

- "not far to the west of Europe ... memory of a larger island" (Proclus).

- "the foreign cities over which they held sway. Crit 117a.

- "those parts of the world" Critias 120e.

- "8th continent"?

(- Herodotus said his contemporaries were wrong that the world was only the 3 continents of Europe, Asia & Libya/Africa? (Though O'Connell claims Herodotus said/implied rather that the world was only Europe, Asia & Libya/Africa?)

(- "3 islands of Zeus, Poseidon, Hades in the west(ern sea)"?)

(- The statue in Azores pointing west with word cati/cates "this way" in Quechua.)

(- "Thoth was born in a distant country to the west which was  across a body of water.")

(- Strabo's 1000/1200/1500 stades extension of Spain in south-western-most Europe may imply that Atlantis (Plain) was in/to the south-west?)

(- The Sea Peoples of Egyptian inscriptions, who some think seemingly may match the Atlanteans, came from "the isles and mainland of the outer circle of water" [sin-wur], and had "a great fleet of sailed-ships with arching prows at each end, in the shape of bird-heads....")

(- Phaeacians/Scherians "dwell apart afar in ocean/deep", "navel of sea...".)

- This separate landmass detail rules out Asia, Indonesia, Europe, Africa/Libya.

NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2019 at 03:37

11. Dates match.

(Sorry this one on the dates is not very good because i have not yet been able to nail the correct date of the war and/or the sinking. So it is maybe abit confusing.
However, the only purpose of this post is to show that Tiahuanaco's dates does have matches with Atlantis' dates. So please expecially note the given dates ranges for Atlantis and Tiahuanaco.)

The date of Atlantis's war &/or sinking has ranged in sources from
12000 bc/ya/yo/bp to 9000/8000 yrs bc ("Plato") to
between 1556/1529/1506 & 1397/1347 bc (between Cecrops & Erechtheus, Greek, Arcus) to
"3000 yrs ago or somewhat more" (ca 1500 bc, Bacon) to
900/869/800/750 yrs bs (ca 1400s bc, Mavor) to
1320 bc ("when Aod governed Israel") to
"1200s" bc or iron age (Spanuth), to
Persian period to
the Apocalypse to
never ("myth/lie/fiction").

The coincidence of the Atlantis date with the dates of the end of the Ice Age and the Sphinx rain marks of Schoch is only false coincidence because (1) the orthodox geological/archaeological dates are unreliable, and (2) some sources point-out that Atlantis can not have been literally 9000 years bc because Athens/Greece & Neith/Sais/Egypt were not around at that date.
It is also pointed-out that the Atlantis account seems to imply that the events happened in the ("Minoan/Mycenaean") Bronze/Brass/Brazen Age.
The Atlantis Account mentions the "3rd deluge" (of 4 world ages?) Daniel in the bible also seems to suggest the 3rd or 4th age?
An Atlantis in 9000s bc also conflicts with biblical chronology, and we have shown elsewhere that Atlantis may match the great city of Asshur in Genesis 10. (Also, Atlantis was a separate land mass in the Account so it must date after the Flood &/or the earth's division in the days of Peleg.)
Some sources say that Atlantis was "1 generation before the Argonauts", &/or "2 generations before the Trojan war". Zangger suggested the Atlantis war was the same as the Trojan war (because the latter starts where the other breaks off).

The 9000 yrs = 9000 months, or 900 yrs theory could possibly be right because 9000 months matches 900 years using a calendar year of 10 months as the early ancients previously had (compare the 10 kings of Atlantis, and the 5th & 6th yrs of Atlantis). A number of Classical sources clearly confirm that the Egyptians called months "years". Although slightly different, we can also compare Herodotus' (1)1340 years Menes to Seti matches Josephus' 1300 years Menes to Shishak. Also compare that "Hyperboreans lived a 1000 years" must match a lifespan of 100/110/120 years (as in Biblical and Egyptian and modern European). Plato's Atlantis 900(0) years before Amasis could match Herodotus' Moeris 900 years before Amasis, and his Hercules 900 years before Amasis. (Sais 800(0) years might also match Salitis/Saites (Hyksos) just after Moeris 900 yrs?)
Herodotus' shoal of Sesostris (12th or "18th" or "19th" dyn) may possibly connect with Atlantis muddy sea? This all seems to point to the time of the Exodus in the bible, and the Philistines who are said to have come from Caphtor at the same time as the exodus?

The 9000/8000 years date might not be 900/800 years though. It might possibly be connected with either:
Herodotus' Pan 29220 yrs or Dionysos 17000 yrs or Menes 11340 yrs; or
the 12 ages of the Zodiac (the most likely candidate for a universal calendar); or
Ptah's reign of 9000 yrs (and Ra's of 1000 yrs) in the dynasty of gods, and the 900/700 yrs from the 1st to the 8th dynasty in ancient Egyptian records (and the 1000 yrs from flood in 1656 am to the exodus in 2666 am in Jewish sources); or
Adam's/Noah's 900 yrs, or the 10 patriarchs; or
the 9/10 world trees in Eddaic; or
9 yrs reign of Alalus in Hittite?

It seems that Spanuth might be right that the Atlantean invasion & war is connected with the Sea Peoples of the 19th-20th dynasty in Egyptian records, which seems to correspond in time with somewhere between Solomon and Jehoshaphat in new revised biblical chronology. Assyrian depictions of the Toakkari Sea Peoples show them bearing the South American fan palm. American cocaine & tobacco was found in 19th & 21st dynasty mummies. The first mention of the place-name Libya was in the reign of Merneptah (19th dyn) too. The Philistines and Sea Peoples might match the Pelasgians of the Thalassocracies who came shortly after the Trojan war? Possibly the earthquake in Amos (in the bible) might be connected with the Atlantis sinking event, though it might be abit too late?

The Atlantis Account doesn't say how long the gap was between the war and the sinking.

Our Atlantis capital city site Tiahuanaco has a match for either of the dates (9000 yrs or 900 yrs).

Tiahuanaco's/Tiwanaku's date ranges in sources from "15538/15000" bc (archaeoastronomical alignments of Kalasasya, Posnansky, GAC), to
"12000th yr" (Posnansky, Bolivian govt), to
"10500/10150/10000 bc (archaeoastronomical alignments of Kalasasya, Muller, Posnansky), to
"9300 bc" (archaeoastronomical alignments of Kalasasya, GAC), to
4500/4050/4000 bc" (archaeoastronomical alignments of Kalasasya, Muller, Posnansky), to
"2134 bc" (obsidian hydration dating, Sangines), to
"1580/1500 bc" (the "old phase" of Tiwanaku, radiocarbon dating, Sangines, NAI), to
"1200 bc" to
almost the beginning of the 1st millenium bc (based on artefacts of southern Peru in comparison with Tiahuanaco, Wendell C Bennett), to
beginning of christian era (previously held Tiwanaku date), to
200 ad (emerged as sacred centre), to
"ad 400-1000" (Tiwanaku IV & V), to
ad 500 / the middle of the first century ad (expanding empire), to
ad 600 (Akapana ceased to function).

There "have been no scientific appraisals of the age" of site, and "scientists are unable to explain the sudden emergence of the site". A source says "it had no infancy and passed through no period of growth".
The site has been variously claimed to be connected with  the Collas or Aymara or Uros.
Tiwanaku was previously held to date to beginning of christian era.
Many sources show that there were 2 ages/dates of the site, one very ancient, and the other the late one. "Tiahuanaco 4 periods: an early period, a 2nd period, a classical period, a final period of decline."
The conclusion of Posnansky was that Tiwanaku was millenia old; that there had been 3 phases in its history, and its first phase was built when the level of the lake was higher and before the area was engulfed by a flood.
Some of the stones "looked very ancient" and "are very worn and wasted" and/or weathered. "I would say that I consider this the oldest antiquity in all of Peru", "the most ancient place of any I have yet described" (Cieza de Leon). Alford's impression is that the pillars of Kalasasya "looked older than those of Stonehenge".
Peruvian tradition says Tiwanaku was "long before" the Incas.
Tiwanaku and/or Wanaku may be connected with Anaku of the Sumerians &/or Akkadians.

The date of the Long night without sunrise/dawn in Peruvian tradition ranges in sources from 1650 (Hoeh) to 1400/1394 bc (parallel to thesun stood still  long day of Joshua ca 1393 bc in the bible, Sitchin).

Tiwanaku monumental/monolithic can't have been built at such high altitude and must date from before Andes were raised. We have already proven in the "Atlantis' sinking" post that the Andes were uplifted suddenly within the lifetime of ancient civilisation, not slowly over millenia as orthodox uniformitarian "scientists" assert.

Some critics claim that the archaeological flood(s) at and south of Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku date "long before Atlantis", but this is disputable since orthodox dating methods are unreliable.

Critics also claimed that the Flood at Tiahuanaco in Andean myths was before not after Tiahuanaco's overthrow. However, there are apparently 2 different floods myths in Andean sources, one before Tiahuanaco was founded (probably Noah's Flood), and one some time after it was founded (Atlantis flood).

Peru is shown in orthodox sources as one of the oldest places for agriculture and civilisation. Tiwanku has been called the "cradle of American man".

Maria Schulten de D'Ebneth suggested that the route of Viracocha conforms to obliquity that dates it to 3172 bc.

"The calendar of the Incas indicated a beginning in age of Taurus not Aries".

Muller's research suggested that Cuzco &/or Macchu Picchu date between 4000 bc & 2000 bc or 4000 ya/yo/bp.

Akakor 10,481 bc (though supposed to be a fake)?

"Bronze Age America" (Barry Fell, J Jewell)?

 ------





Edited by Arthur-Robin - 01-Jan-2019 at 16:11
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2018 at 22:25

10. The Opposite Continent (& the other islands).

The Atlantis Account says that one reached Atlantis from the Old World, and that one reached other islands and then an opposite continent from Atlantis. It has long often been assumed that Atlantis was in the Atlantic ocean, and that the opposite continent must therefore be the Americas, and hence critics claim that Atlantis can't match our South America. However sources say that there is no sunken landmass in the Atlantic ocean, and this means that either/both of the Americas must match Atlantis, and either/both of the Americas may or may not match the opposite continent. We have also already shown in our "Atlantic sea or ocean" post that the Atlantic sea might be lake Titicaca, and/or we have shown that Americas qualify as being in the Atlantic ocean anyway (which may be either/both the Atlantic &/or Pacific on either/both sides of the Americas).

We have shown that Atlantis was large and matches (?North &) South America (& Antarctica?), and so (the other islands and) the whole opposite continent must be one of these seven candidates:

- Antarctica? Opposite the northern hemisphere lands (Europe etc) would be the southern hemisphere. Anti- means "opposite". Compare the Terra Australis and/or Antichthonie of Classical sources. Antarctica surrounds the world ocean in the map projection centred on the north pole (and as such Flem-Ath called it the "navel of the world"). It is also along the whole of the bottom of the world in Mercator projection maps. Ptolemy's map has Africa joint to Antarctica & Australia surrounding the Indian ocean. Oronteus Finneus had a larger Antarctica in his map. "Parts of the opposite continent" could relate to Antarctica then being partly not/covered in ice? The "two" other islands could be the Scotia area?

- The whole large island of Atlantis/America, which the small royal island capital city of Atlantis/Tiahuanaco might have then been separated from by the sea in those times before the upheaval? The Sea Peoples came from "the isles and mainland of the outer circle of water". The Americas / New World / Western Hemisphere is the only other major landmass in the world after the Old World / Eastern Hemisphere. Opposite the eastern hemisphere lands (Europe, Africa/Libya, etc) would be the western hemisphere. Compare the "underworld" Amenti/Aaru/Urani. The Americas partly surround the Atlantic ocean and/or the Pacific ocean. Atlantis was the centre of the Atlanteans' world, but in map projections centred on the opposite point in the Old World Atlantis/America would surround the world.

- North America? Kirchir's map seems to show one of the Americas (South America / Atlantis) closer to old world than the other of the Americas (North America / Opposite Continent). "Parts of the opposite continent" could relate to North America then being partly covered in ice? The "two" other islands would be the Caribbean islands like in Kirchir's map?
The 3 large islands of Zeus/Jupiter/Ammon, Poseidon/Neptune/Atlantis & Hades/Pluto (and the 7 islands of Persephone/Proserpine) in the western sea in some classical sources could be N & S America and Antarctica (and the Pacific islands?)

- East Asia (and Australasia) at the opposite end of the Old World? Hrozny exhibited pictures from Indus Valley etc which showed 2 up & down feet/steps (and a boat or serpent between them in some of the pictures) which seemingly might match the Old & New Worlds with Atlantis or the Atlantic/Pacific between them? The "many other islands" would be the Pacific islands.
Some people say that Atlantis being "larger than Asia & Libya" can also/alternatively be translated "between Asia & Libya". (South) Americas / Atlantis is between East Asia and West Africa.

- Austral(as)ia? The Americas to the west of the old world, and Australia to the east are the two main other landmasses in the world. Compare the Terra Australis of Classical sources?

- Australia-Antarctica in a stage of the continental "drift"?

- Lemuria/Mu/Pan/Pacifica/Zealandia in the Pacific? Some sources have Atlantis/Hyperborea and Lemuria as two opposite continents.

Herodotus, who was between Solon & Plato, said that his contemporaries were wrong that the world only consisted of Europe, Asia & Libya/Africa (and the Nile Delta). (Though O'Connell claims that he said the world was only those 3 (or 4) places?) He also said there may be Hypernotians as well as Hyperboreans. He also seemingly place the pillars of Hercules in the vicinity of Gibraltar, and the Atlantic sea in the vicinity of the Atlantic ocean. So critics can not honestly use Herodotus to claim that Atlantis and the opposite continent can only be in the Old World.

 ------

We have now (re)answered all the criticisms of our thesis/theory in Atlantipedia's review except for the Defeat point, and except for rewriting more extensive details on the Distance/Invasion/Boats point(s). (We also have to rewrite a post on the Date which is not metioned in the Atlantipedia piece but is sort-of implied by the comment in it about the supposed date of the Andes uplifting. Though we have already proven in the sinking post that the Andes were uplifted suddenly in lifetime of ancient civilisation.)



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 31-Dec-2018 at 22:28
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2018 at 19:08

9. Bulls, and type of sacrifice.

The Atlantis Account says that there were bulls in Atlantis.
Crete had bull cult, but Atlantis can't be Crete.
Spain has bull fighting, but Atlantis doesn't fit Spain.
North America had buffalos, but Atlantis is found not there.

Bulls in the Peruvian/Andean region (where our Atlantis capital city site Tiahuanaco is) :
Some people said Peru doesn't have bulls and so can't match Atlantis. However, Peru has does have stark matches for bulls (or "bulls") then, eg:
- little ceramic stone bulls on house rooftops everywhere in lake Titicaca (Peru, tourist girls travel photos & captions).
- bull god at Chavin (Sitchin 'Lost Realms').
- communities worship bull at Pucara/near Puno on Titicaca?
- "bull(s) of Pucara"?
- standing on a bull in a stone carving s.w. of Titicaca.
- Raimondi monolith deity's face of a bull (Sitchin 'Lost Realms').
- El Lanzon anthropomorphised bull face (Sitchin 'Lost Realms').
- "Alpha"?
- seated [bull-like] "deer" figure carrying a club (looks bull-/cow-like, though the antlers aren't cow but deer, Peru, Larouse World Mythology).
- horned animal sacrificing a human (Sipan pottery, Reader's Digest 'Vanished civilisations').
- "pottery cow" / cow shaped vase / cow sacrificed & entrails put in vase (fertility ceremonies, Peru, Larousse World Mythology pg 491).
- llama sacrifice (Allen 'Atlantis in Bolivia'). (Jim Allen proposed that the "bulls" were llamas which are very vaguely similarish beasts.)
- Rimac horned crown (Rimmon/Ramman? Rimn/Rimu "wild ox"? Re'em "unicorn/ox"?)
-  "Urus ancestors sacrificed by invaders"? [Compare word urus/uruz "ox/bull" in European?]
- Mochica stirup vessels [cow head]?
- textiles depict herders, sacrificial victims?
- There are wild bulls in nearby regions in the book 'Stones from the Sky', though not sure if they are descendants of bulls introduced by post-Columbian Europeans?

Type of sacrifice & ceremony:
Peru also has matches for the various details of the type of sacrifice mentioned in the Atlantis Account (hunted bulls with clubs/staves and nets/nooses, struck bull on head, slain/slit-throat over inscription, mingled clots blood in cups, drink blood from golden cups/spoons, pour libation on fire, dismembered, burnt limbs/rest of bull in fire). Eg:
- seated [bull-like] "deer" figure carrying a club (Peru, Larouse world mythology).
- horned animal sacrificing a human (Sipan pottery, Reader's Digest 'Vanished civilisations').
- "pottery cow" / cow shaped vase / cow sacrificed & entrails put in vase (fertility ceremonies, Peru, Larousse World Mythology).
- "on a certain day a priest would go to a distant mountain upon which there stood a large idol of a god, and would sacrifice there a llama" (chroniclers, Sitchin)?
- llama sacrifice (drank from gold goblets, Inti Raimi [festival], Jim Allen 'Atlantis in Bolivia')?
- "Urus ancestors sacrificed by invaders"?
- "captives throat cut, blood caught in goblet, offered goblet to ruler who drank the blood" (priest cutting throat has cow/bull horn-/ear-like projections head, Sipan).
-  sacrifical victims dismembered and strings tied around limbs so they could be hung up as trophies (Sipan).
- golden bowls/goblets (Chimu).
- kero drinking cup smashed after ceremonies?
- textiles depict herders, sacrificial victims?
- human sacrifices Akapana, people disemboweled & torn apart?
(- ritual human beheading?)

 ------

Words for ox/bull/cow/cattle: aleph/alpha aurochs ama Apis bull(ock) bakar dairy buffalo bison bo bos/bovis/bovine beef cow cattle calf egli fehu/feudal goad goldencalf gu(d) go/gauh geus/gosh goy? heifer kine Kuh ka(ui) lu(p) moschel moo neat ox(en) pas(h)u reem rimu/rimn steer tatanka Thur/tor/shur Taurus/toro uruz urus vaccine veal viteli yak.

guanil (Guanche/Azores), gnu (South African), bo (Celtic/Irish), cow/kine/bovine (English), kuh (German), bo(vi)s/buffalo (Latin/Roman), bo(u)s (Greek), gu/ku (Minoan/Cretan), ka(ui) "bull" (Egyptian), goy(im) (Hebrew/Jewish), kujata (Moslem/Arab), gu(d) (Sumerian), gosh/geus (Iranian/Persian), go/gauh/gomeda (Hindu/Indian/Dravidian), *gaw (Proto-Indo-European/Aryan), kan-iyal/kana (Dravidian/Tamil), koyunlu (Turkish), gyag/yak (Tocarian), kahui (Maori/Polynesian).



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 31-Dec-2018 at 19:10
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2018 at 03:45

8. The large plain of Atlantis.

According to the Atlantis Account the main chief area of the large island of Atlantis where the capital city was was a large rectangular level fertile plain which is called the "fairest of all plains" and was surrounded by a ditch and covered in a checker-board of cross-crossing irrigation channels making it very productive. This plain was situated at the mid-point of the longest side of the island, and was near the sea (ocean or inland sea), and it was surrounded by mountains. The city was situated in the middle of one side of the "surrounding" plain, with the ditch approaching it from both sides.

Not many places in the world can match this large sized plain, especially with the further details of it being surrounded by mountains, etc.

There is a strong match for the plain and channels in the area of our site Tiahuanco.
"the plain in which the lake is situated".
"the flat depression which was occupied by the lake (Titicaca) and its southern shores".
"the plain of Tiahuanaco".
"... the valley or plateau on which Tiahuanaco is situated. Nowhere else all around the lake is there such a level plateau."
"at the edge of a great plain basin".
"The site of Tiwanaku lies in a broad plain in the rio Tiwanaku valley, one of several that cut back from the southern edge of lake Titicaca into the huge plateau of the Bolivian Altiplano."
"the whole great tableland of Peru and Bolivia ... with ... its own plains ...."
Sources say that the Peru/Bolivia area is a "plateau", which means high flat (like a raised plain).
Jim Allen and other sources like Bibliotecapleyades also show satellite pictures of geoglyphs on the southeast & southwest sides of Titicaca, near Tiahuanaco, and "north of Tiahuanaco", and also in the Altiplano, which may match with the criss-crossing channels/canals (and population) of the plain of Atlantis. (Sajama lines 22525 sq km, 16000 km, 10/20 km?)
Tiahuanaco is located within the centre of geoglyphs around southern Titicaca & northern Altiplano.
The only uncertainty is that translations of the Atlantis account are unclear whether the plain extended width-wise or length-wise up the country through the center of the island?
Remember that it has been proven that the Andes have been uplifted abit higher in ancient times, and that there was a flood at Tiahuanaco and to the south of Titicaca, and so the geography may be a little bit different now.
Our plain candidate is roughly in the middle of the longest side of South America, and is surrounded by mountains (the Andes).
There is also evidence that the plain was once "fairest". Various locations in Peru look vaguely/reminiscently green/lush, and Peru is known to have had a Pacific climate before Andes were suddenly uplifted higher, and before air/water currents changed.

Kampanakis' "Platonian tradition" map in Berlitz's book has the Atlantis plain & city on the southwest side of the island like ours is, and it is in roughly same situation in his Atlantis island as ours is (except that his Atlantis island is rotated 90 degrees and flipped 180 degrees).
Kirchir's map of Atlantis seems to suggest 2 possible locations for the plain, and one matches ours in Peru/Bolivia.

The large plain is also confirmed to be in the area/region in local traditions:
- The Inca picture from the Coricancha shows half a dozen other details of the Atlantis Account including the large rectangular plain & surrounding ditch & criss-crossing channels ("long criss-crossed object"). See:
http://2rbetterthan1.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/inca_altar01.jpg
http://f.tqn.com/y/archaeology/1/S/7/_/1/coricancha-altar.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bjmO_QlWUWg/T7Hgo3qHuOI/AAAAAAAAADw/QAxP_NQvw3Q/s320/Altar+de+Coricancha.jpg http://galacticdoor2011.blog.com/files/2011/12/gold-map-in-coricancha.jpg
- A picture in the Crespi collection seemingly may also show the plain with criss-crossing channels.
- Strabo's 1000 stades extension of Spain may confirm that the Atlantis plain was to the south-west (South America)?
- The Atlantis plain may also be the "ussa / the bright field of tas(ia)" in the tomb label of Menes, who died in the land of the sunest, and/or the fields of Aa(en)ru/Aalu in "the land of sunset" in Egyptian accounts?
- The great city of Asshur and Rehoboth-Ir in Genesis 10 seemingly may match with both Atlantis city and Tiahuanaco because the meanings of the names in the Genesis 10 verses seem to match the parts or buildings of the two cities. Rehoboth(-Ir) means "(the) broadplaces/streets/avenues of the city" and matches both the plain of Atlantis (with its channels) and the "altiplano" of Tiahuanaco. (See our separate posts on the great city of Asshur.)

Cultures of other times/places in Peru/Andes also had same/similar canals/channels systems reminiscent of Atlantis/Tiahuanaco:
raised fields Umayo.
network of canals (Chavin).
system irrigation channels (Moche/Chimu/Chanchan).
irrigation networks (Moche/Sipan).
Abundant harvests from irrigation system (Moche/Chimu).
Peru/Bolivia still has the sukukolos "raised fields" agriculture system, and/or waruwaru agriculture system.

We can also compare the highly fertile floating gardens & canals of the valley of Mexico, but Mexico just doesn't fit all the details of the Atlantis Account and they probably got the system from Atlanteans.

The Atlantis plain had "an extensive net of canals such as was never seen in Europe", which rules-out Europe. Strabo & satellite photos do have canals in the Guadalquivir(-Tinto) area in Spain, but s.w. Spain doesn't fit all the details of the Atlantis Account.

The 2 crops a year is also confirmed in our site's area:
- The ancient suka_kollus "(flooded-)raised field(s)" summer & winter farming/agriculture system of Tiwanaku/Altiplano/Peru/Bolivia, which "produced impressive yields".
- The Inca picture from the Coricancha shows half a dozen details of the Atlantis Account including the 2 crops a year (the "sun & moon" &/or "stars & clouds" is sais to = "summer & winter").
- The sun & moon in picture of waruwaru agricultre.
(Hyperborea also had 2 crops a year, but if Hyperborea is Britain then Britain doesn't match all the details of the Atlantis Account.
HG Wells mentioned that Herodotus said that in Mesopotamia wheat yielded 200-fold, and that Pliny said it was cut twice, but Iraq doesn't fit all the details of the Atlantis Account.)

In the Atlantis Account the side of the island in which the large Plain was situated faced south and was sheltered from the north (wind)?
Peru/Bolivia was once on the equator in a previous pole shift map.
Flem-Ath said that the (west?) coast of (North?) America faced south in a previous pole shift map, so that may mean so did the west coast of South America too?
The Inca picture from the Coricancha has two compass points crosses + and X at the top which may possibly be connected with the sheltered from the north &/or the faced south, and/or with a pole shift?

The Atlantis Account says there are also other plains in the large island of Atlantis.
South America also has other plains too (Altiplano, Nazca ("grassy") plain, the Llanos/Ilanos (Venezuela), Planalto, Pampas).



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 31-Dec-2018 at 03:47
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2018 at 21:11

7. The Concentric circles royal island capital City of Atlantis.

Atlantis capital city positively starkly matches Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku city in Peru/Bolivia.

There are evidences in the ground of concentric rings at Tiahuanaco:
- Maps/diagrams of Tiahuanaco from Posnansky (and Sithcin and Alford) show at least one or two of the concentric circles. This was one of the evidences that forced me to have to accept Tiahuanaco is the Atlantis capital city site. See:
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258213#msg258213
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=284;image
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=287;image
www.condoramericano.com.ar/historia/Tiahuanaco.htm .
- Written descriptions of Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku also mention "... surrounded by a moat, and the earth and clay which had been excavated from the moat ...", "... the canals which surround the site ...", "the artificial canal (or moat) ... that surrounded the whole site".
- "4 walls surrounded by a moat which was to create the image of a scared island / holiest of shrines" (Tiahuanaco article).  Palacio enclosed by double ring of earthworks (Tiahuanaco/Calasasaya)?
- Tiwanaku is also named Taypicala/Taypi-kala "stone/rock in the middle/centre", and is "considered middle of [the(ir)] world" by locals.  "Its ceremonial core...".
- Tiahuanaco has been called the "American Stonehenge". (Compare Mystery Hill, and Gobekli Tepe.)
- Books mention evidences that Tiahuanaco/Akapana was a great seaport and was once connected with the waters of Titicaca/Huinaymarca lake/sea (refs include Daniken, Alford).
- "There were two Tiahuanaco's, one the visible ruins, the other the subterranean and invisible." (This could match either/both the rings and/or the sinking.)
Remember that it is proven that the Andes were pushed/pulled up abit higher in ancient times, and that there were quakes at Tiahuanaco, and that there was a flood at Tiahuanaco and to south of Titicaca and the site is described as "... many more still lie buried in the ground under layers of sediment...", and Lissner (after Posnansky) says Tiahuanaco is covered in lava, so the geography is going to be a little bit different now.

Other Peruvian/Andean sites also have similar features/names:
Kenko "twisting channels".
Chingana "labyrinth".
3 carved channels between Ilyapa temple & rainbow temple (Cuzco)?
Cerro Santo Vilca / Pampa Aullagas by Poopo in Bolivia has 3 sandy channels separated by rings of land (Jim Allen).

Tiahuanaco also has matches for the sizes/distances of the central island and the rings of Atlantis city.

The central island of Atlantis city was 5 stades (half a mile).
Tiwanaku "sits in a 3 miles width trough".
The "sacred city of Tiahuanaco covered 2 square miles".
The central core island or "greater metropolis" of Tiahuanaco is almost "2 x 1 miles".
Pumapinku is "almost a mile to the south-west" of the centre.

"the artificial canal (or moat), some 100 feet wide, that surrounded the whole site" of central Tiahuanaco.

Tiahuanaco city is "6.5 sq kms maximum".

The whole city of Atlantis was 50 stades (9.2 km, or "5 (& a 1/2) miles") radius (the distance from the citadel to the sea), or 22 km diameter.
Kimsa Chata / Quimsa-chata is 15 km or 10-12 miles southeast of/from [Tiahuanaco or Titicaca]?
Tiahuanaco is now 10/12/13 miles/km from the lake.
One source says 13 miles from Titicaca.
Another source says "Tiahuanaco 12 mile south of Titicaca"?
Another source says Tiahuanaco 10 miles from Titicaca.
The stones of central Tiahuanaco were "transported tens of miles from the nearest quarries" "some ten miles away".
A quarry 10 km away [from Tiahuanaco].

People must note that a stade/stadium is uncertainly variously either 157/150 m (Greek), 185/180 m / 606 ft (Roman), 177/170 m (Attic), 192 m (Olympic), 209/200 m (Egyptian), 211 m (Greek). (Jim Allen argues for half a stade since Peru/Bolivia had a base 20 not a base 10 numeric system.)
Also, the exact distance from the lake to the city was abit different in ancient times and has uncertainties and varies between different sources. One source says a few miles from Titicaca.

Tiahuanaco described as "vast area", "several square miles in area", and/or greater Tiahuanaco (including Pumapunku etc) stretches "for miles".

(The main buildings/parts of Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku include: Akapana (central island), Akapana East, Kalasasaya (central island), the "semi-subterranean temple" or Kantatayita temple (central island), Kheri Kala, Putuni, Pumapunku (inner ring or central island?), Lukurmata "temple" (outer ring near lake Titicaca).)

The canal between Atlantis citadel and the sea may be either the/a canal in Tiahuanaco maps/diagrams, or Rio Tiwanaku, or the Desaguadero? "... the water flowed into canals which led to lake Titicaca." "It [water/canal] lead from there to wharfs at the site's north and thence to the lake."
The ditch coming "to the city from both directions" has possible matches at our site such as the canal like 2 pinchers around the back of the Akapana in Posnansky's map & Alford's diagram (see: www.condoramericano.com.ar/historia/Tiahuanaco.htm)?
The maps & diagrams confirm that they could sail right up to the citadel/palace/temple like the Atlantis Account says.

We also have local pictures confirming that the concentric circles city was in Peru/Bolivia.
- The Inca picture from the Coricancha depicts half a dozen to a dozen details of the Atlantis Account in it, including the concentric circles city on the lower left (the globe/circle/"earth-symbol/Pachamama" & "rainbow/arch"), and also possibly the concentric circles city in the left side of the lake/sea on the lower right, and also possibly the city as the dot at the end of the line/canal extending from the lake on the lower right? See:
www.labyrinthina.com/inca.altar01
http://galacticdoor2011.blog.com/files/2011/12/gold-map-in-coricancha.jpg
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=277;image
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258222#msg258222
http://f.tqn.com/y/archaeology/1/S/7/_/1/coricancha-altar.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bjmO_QlWUWg/T7Hgo3qHuOI/AAAAAAAAADw/QAxP_NQvw3Q/s320/Altar+de+Coricancha.jpg
- An inscription from Pumapunku (part of Tiahuanaco) shows the concentric circles. See:
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258214#msg258214
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=288;image
- There are concentric circles symbols ("geometric .... circles and ovals") on the gateway of the sun at Tiahuanaco (in Posnansky's drawings). See:
www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/reinosperdidos/reinosperdidos10.htm
- Uru/Chipaya/Coipasa village concentric organisation.
- The Sillustani inscription (from n.w. Titicaca) shows the concentric circles city (the "spiral") and possibly the cliff/s (the wedge shape)? See:
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258214#msg258214
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=290;image
- The "radiating cross" in a petroglyph northwest of Titicaca (Sitchin 'Lost Realms' fig 134)?
- The concentric circles city, canal & lake/sea are seen in the Calango stone from Peru (ref picture & text in Sitchin's 'Lost Realms').
- Concentric circles cities area also seen in the "3 windows" drawing of Salcamayhua (ref picture in Sitchin 'Lost Realms')?
- The hats of Peruvians might symbolise the small hill and concentric rings city?
- The inverse spade symbol in Peruvian may stand either for mining or for [Poseidon] digging/boring the rings? Compare their accounts saying the divine/magic/golden wand/staff "sink/sank into the earth/ground" / "strike/struck a/the stone"?
- The concentric circles city is certainly shown in a Chanchan/Chimu inscription. See:
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258213#msg258213
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=282;image
- This Peruvian (Chimu/Mochica) mask has the 3 concentric circles city with the Atlas pillar motif rising from it. See:
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258213#msg258213
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=281;image .
- The concentric circles city may also be shown in the head/face of the female figure in the Crespi collection? See picture on old title page at: http://picasaweb.google.com/seanbam2/Antipodean.
(Maybe also compare concentric circles in one or two other pieces of the Crespi collection too.)

Apart from the concentric rings layout other general confirmation of the capital city of Atlantis being in vicinity of Tiahuanaco includes:
- Huinaymarka (the southern part of Titicaca) means "eternal city". Perhaps also compare the 7 hills "Rome" site in vicinity of Juli in middle west Titicaca?
- There are stories of a lost underwater city 'Wanaku' in lake Titicaca. Anaku "tin-land" of Mesopotamian source texts might be connected with Wanaku and the orichalc metal of Atlantis city. (Compare Huanki (3 tiered circular terrace) in China?)
- Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku has been called "the cradle of American man", and "the Baalbek of the New World" (refs Posnansky, Alford, Sitchin, Kolosimo). "I would say that i consider this the oldest antiquity in all of Peru." "... the most ancient place of any i have yet described."
- Tiahuanaco is significantly roughly-halfway between two of the highest/greatest mountain peaks of the Andes & (South) Americas (Illampu/Sorata and Illimani). "Nowhere else in the world, perhaps, can a panorama so diversified and grand be obtained from a single point of view." These were extra evidences that forced me to accept Tiahuanaco is the site of Atlantis city.
- Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku city at the bottom of lake Titicaca is an inverse analogy of Eridu city at the top of the Persian Gulf.
- Tiahuanaco is in the supposed "world grid", and on "a ley line".
- Peru is right on the equator line in one of the maps of Pole shift periods. (Compare "then under the sun" in Atlantis Account?)
- The candelabra trident at Paracas indicates that Atlantis city is in Peru area?
- Atlantis city is seemingly similar to descriptions of Manoa/Eldorado &/or Akakor/Akator?
- Kirchir's map of Atlantis seems to match South America, and it seems to suggest 1 of 2 locations for the city/plain, one in Venezuela and one in Peru?
- The "ra/dag/zal/revolving-sun/spiral/whorl/cup-marks" in Menes' tomb lesser labels (ref Waddell) may be Atlantis, and Menes died in Urani/Amenti/Aaru "the land of the sunset".

Related examples from elsewhere in the Americas include:
San Lorenzo in east Mexico.
Tenochtitlan in Mexico ("surrounded by water" in lake).
The Chalco glyph in Mexico.
The Caracol in Citchen Itza.
Stede Citades "7 cities" (Brazil & Azores)?

(Other possible rings formations are also maybe seen at:
The Isla Allan / Moro / Negrone, Uros islands, Puno bay / Paucarcolla bahia area in n.e. Titicaca?
Ilave peninsula in mid west Titicaca?
There is maybe an anomalous about-5 kms [diameter?] circular object in the sea out from the Orinoco river mouth in google satellite photos?
A projection on the continental shelf off Florida?)

Various translations of the Atlantis Account say that the plain and city of Atlantis were on the side of the island "towards the islands", on the sea side of the island, near the sea (ocean or inland sea), in the (n-s &/or w-e) centre/midpoint of the longest side of the island. Tiahuanaco/Peru fits all of these details of the Account. (Some sources' maps have Atlantis plain/city on the (south-)east side of the island, but some have the plain/city on the (south-)west side.)

It is true that there are many other concentric circles sites and pictures in various places around the world as some critics have counter-claimed. However, Atlantis can only be in one place, and that location has to match all the details in the Account (including size, distance, direction, large plain, mountains, the sea, elephants, remains of buildings/city/civilisation, etc), and many locations are ruled out by some of the details, and all the details matches evidences for our site are far stronger quality and quantity than all the others. Other concentric circles cities may be later copies of Atlantis/Tiahuanaco city's design/model/plan which itself was an analogy/mirror/microcosm of the spheres of heaven &/or earth.
The only 2 major civilisations known outside of Europe and Asia in the whole world that could match Atlantis are Peru and Mexico.

The low Hill dwelling of Clito.

"... there was a mountain/hill, not very high on any side. In this mountain/hill there dwelt ... Cl(e)ito. ... enclosed the hill on which she dwelt all around...." Critias 113d-e.

This Hill in the centre of Atlantis city certainly matches the clitoris-shaped Akapana mound or "pyramid" or "hill made by hands of men" in central Tiahuanaco, which stands-out in Tiahuanaco drawings & descriptions, and which is also surely fairly remarkible (if not unique) in all the world. (Compare the African story of Amma who "circumcised the earth goddess, whose clitoris was an anthill".) This was one of the evidences that forced me to accept that Tiahuanaco is Atlantis city.

(See the hill in these maps & diagrams of Tiahuanaco from Posnansky & Sitchin & Alford & Daniken:
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258213#msg258213
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=284;image
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=287;image
www.condoramericano.com.ar/historia/Tiahuanaco.htm .)

The Hill/Akapana (or else the pillars of Hercules?) is also seemingly/maybe shown in the Inca picture from the Coricancha in the concentric circle(s) globe or "earth-symbol for Pachamama" on the (viewer's) lower left side.
Maybe also compare Jiskairumoko/Moko "small hill" in the same area/region?
There is also another similar hill/mountain in middle west Titicaca at/by/near the 7 hills "Rome" site of Juli.
Clito may possibly be the female figure in the Crespi collection which seems to have the Atlantis concentric circles city in her head/face?

"The palaces in the interior of the citadel were constructed in this wise : In the center was a holy-temple/shrine dedicated/sacred to Cleito & Poseidon, which remained inaccessible, and was surrounded by a[n enclosure/barrier of] gold(en)...." (Critias 116d.)

I am not sure if this is the same as the Hill of Clito (Akapana), or the temple of Poseidon, but we can see in the maps & diagrams of Posnansky's & Alford's that the Akapana seemingly has an enclosure, and the Kalasasaya maybe has enclosure, and another building maybe has an enclosure? The "inaccessible" also fits the Akapana....

The Temple (of Poseidon), and the palace of Poseidon.

"Here, too, was Poseidon's own temple, of a stadium in length and half a stadium in width.... ... walls ... lined with oreichalc. .... There was an altar, too,  which in size and workmanship corresponded to the rest of the work...." Crit 116e.
"... at/in the temple of Poseidon.... ... range of the temple of Poseidon... in the temple...." Crit 119d, 119e, 120a.
"...in the temple of the god... about/in the temple/sanctuary...." Crit 120c.

"The palaces in the interior of the citadel/acropolis were constructed in this wise :" Crit 116d
"...and they began to build the palace in the habitation of the god.... This they continued to ornament in successive generations... until they made the building a marvel to behold for size & beauty." Crit 115d.
"The island on which the palace was situated..." Crit 116a.
"Enough of the plan of the royal palace." Crit 117e.

Tiahuanaco has a match for the large size of the temple of Poseidon, and the altar, and for the marvelous size of the palace, though i am not totally sure which of these following buildings are the right matches.

- Akapana 257 x 197 m (& 16.5 high) (though this seems to be the hill of Clito rather than the temple of Poseidon).

- Kalasas(a)ya large temple 120 x 130 m / 300 ft long / 400 x 450 ft (but i can't tell whether this is the temple or the palace). (One can see from maps and diagrams and descriptions that we can not know whether the measurements given by my sources are for both the external and internal parts of the Kalasasaya, or just the internal parts?)

- the throne room 160 x 130 ft / [100 x 85 ft] (though this sounds more like the palace). 

- the hall 45 x 22 ft?

- "the monolithic gateway of the temple [at Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku] is the largest example of its kind in the world".

- Pumapunku/Pumapinku huge "temple" 167 x 116 m  (& 5 m high) + 20 m wide projections corners extending 27 m, + terrace 6 x 38 m (but this can't be the temple since it seems it is not in central island but in a ring?)

(Some of these buildings also look large in the maps and diagrams of Posnansky's & Alford's.)

A stade/stadium is uncertainly either 157/150 m (Greek), 185/180 m / 606 ft (Roman), 177/170 m (Attic), 192 m (Olympic), 209/200 m (Egyptian), 211 m (Greek). Jim Allen argues for half a stade since Peru/Bolivia had a base 20 not a base 10 numeric system. Richter proposed "stade" was for Egyptian khet which is 52/50/55 m. Some suggest that the Peruvians had a measurment called luk'a which is 60 cm.
The central island of Atlantis city was 5 stades which is said to be half a mile. The whole city of Atlantis was 50 stades radius which is said to be 9.2 km or "5 (& a 1/2) miles", or 22 km diameter.
Dr Kuhne's possible 50 m x 40 m building in Donana in Spain is half the size of the Atlantis temple.

Ruins of a "Tiwanaku" temple were also found by Atahualpa/Akakor expedition divers under/beneath Titicaca, near Copacabana, at the foot of real Cordigliera?
The Egyptian judgement hall of the dead or of Osiris was also in the land of the sunset.

There are stone blocks with lines of nail holes, grooves & niches at Tiahuanaco, indicating metal sheets lining/coating like in the Atlantis account.
Also compare the Coricancha "golden palace" sheathed in gold plates, or Temple of the Sun or "golden temple covered with gold plates" of Cuzco?
Gold & silver plates lined walls of temple of Pachacamac?
Golden enclosure Tumbes?
"Temple of 7 rays" of Amaru/Aramu Muru/Muro (Hayu Marca)?



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 30-Dec-2018 at 21:14
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2018 at 02:17

6. Atlantis' "sinking/submergence".

Atlantis is said to have been in the Atlantic, and said or implied to have "sank/sunk/subsided" or been "submerged", or "swallowed up by the sea" and "disappeared/vanished" amidst "terrible/portentous/exceeding-great quake(s) & flood(s)" in a great catastrophe. The island of Atlantis has generally been considered to be fairly large, but there are apparently no such large landmasses in the Atlantic or Indian or Pacific oceans, (and the mid-Atlantic ridge is going upwards and outwards not inwards and downwards except for small bits like Surtsey island,) which means that we are left with these following alternative options:
- The large island of Atlantis must be one of the 7 continents, and it sinking/submergence was not vertical but was sideways (continental shift or crust displacement), or was only temporary (slosh, flood, tidal wave, since rose/exposed again), or was only partial (continental edges), or was figurative or "Carthaginian propaganda".
- Some claim that there are evidences of large sunken/submerged landmasses in the Pacific/Indian/Atlantic ocean.
- Atlantis was small, or only the royal island capital city was sunk/submerged.
- Atlantis and its sinking is a myth/fiction/lie.

We show in our posts that Atlantis was real not myth, since we have a site that matches all the details of the Account, and that Atlantis was a large landmass not just a small royal island capital city, and that the large island and capital city of Atlantis match (?North &) South America and Tiahuanco, and so it remains to show whether and how the "sinking" matches the whole large island or just the royal island capital city.

I. Just the Royal Island Capital City "sank":

These are the excerpts about the "sinking" from Atlantis Account: "one (grievous) day & night of-destruction/befell-them, all the warriors in your land / the whole body of your warriors were swallowed up by the earth, and in (a) like manner the nesos/island (of) Atlantis (was) sink/sank/sunk below/beneath the sea / was swallowed (up) by the thalassa/sea, and disappeared/vanish(ed) (away) ... the pelagos/ocean there/at-that-spot is unnavigible / impassable and unsearchable, being blocked (up) by very-shallow-shoals/the-shoal-mud / quantity of mud, which the island caused as she/it settled down." (Timaeus 25d-e, & Critias 109a.)

From the excerpts it does look like it is possible that only the royal island capital city "sank" not the whole large island of Atlantis. The nesos could be the royal island capital city and not the whole large island, and the thalassa and/or pelagos and mud could be Titicaca?

This seems to be supported by the records about the Sea Peoples which say that their "islands are uprooted and carried away .... The might of Nun (the Ocean) broke forth and fell in a great wave upon their towns and villages", also that the head of their cities was submerged. (Plus, "Their forests and fields are burnt with fire." "The heat of him has burnt their countries." "The fire of Sekhmet has burnt the lands of the 9 bows/arcs." "As mighty fire was prepared before them." "They had before them a sea of flame.")

Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku and other Peruvian/Bolivian/Andean sites have archaeological evidences of the Atlantis quake(s) and flood(s), eg: "blocks tossed/scattered"; cracked 'Gate(way) of the Sun'; "broken megaliths"; Cerro Santo Vilca / Pampa Aullagas earthquake damage on west; (Sources says Tiahuanaco is also covered in lava.) "an avalanche/flood of water, and a sudden upheaval of unknown nature"; Tiahuanaco was flooded (Fasold, etc); "... many more still lie buried in the ground under layers of sediment from ... flooding from Lake Titicaca." "There were two Tiahuanaco's, one the visible ruins, the other the subterranean and invisible." Some claim the flood date doesn't match, but orthodox dating methods are unreliaible and there are contradictory dates given by different sources. There is also evidence of subsidence in the ocean trench off the coast of Peru.

Peruvian/Andean myths also attest a Flood similar to the Atlantis one called 'Unu Pachacuti' "water overturns land" (Jim Allen). (Some people counter claim that the Flood was before Tiahuanaco was built, but there are seemingly 2 flood myths and the 2nd one has the flood some amount of time after it was built.) There are also stories of a lost underwater city 'Wanaku' in lake Titicaca.

There is even a possible match at our Tiahuanaco site for the one day/night mentioned in the Atlantis Account. "... legends claimed that Tiwanaku was built in a single night, after the Flood...." "... all that are there appeared overnight."
Inca king-lists & myths have a "night without/withno sunrise/dawn for 20 hours" or 'chamak-pacha' "period of darkness" ca 1400/1394/1391 bc which is parallel to the "sun stood still" & "long day" of Joshua ca 1393 bc in the bible. Both are roughly same date as the Atlantis war/sinking date of ca 1400s bc (900 yrs before Amasis) of some chronologists.

Possible matches in the local region for the muddy sea or shoal(s) of mud and/or the unnavigable/inaccessable sea include:
Andean sources mention 'llullaillaco' "dirty water" (llulla +yacu), and "mud that floats" (Uros).
mud in the Uros floating island area near Puno.
"... many more still lie buried in the ground under layers of sediment from ... flooding from Lake Titicaca."
Tiahuanaco is no longer connected with waters of Titicaca as it once was;
Titicaca is now an inland lake no longer connected to the Pacific.

Critics have claimed that Peru can't match Atlantis because it "was/is not sunken/submerged but uplifted". However the above evidences of ours nevertheless prove that there was a flood like the one of Atlantis at our royal island capital city site. There is no actual basis for assuming that "sinking" of Atlantis was permanent from the event until now, because we only have a record for the time of the event and some time after (at the most until Solon). The survivors and contacts in the Old World would not necessarily know all what happened after. History knows of cases where lands sunk and rose at different times (eg Surtsey island). Some tectonic catastrophes include both sinking/subsidence/submerged and uplifting at the same time in different areas, and the Account might even imply this by saying "*quake(s)* and flood(s)".

There are quality evidences that the Andes region was previously lower and was later suddenly uplifted higher within the lifetime of ancient humans and civilisation:
- evidences that Andes/Peru once had Pacific ocean geo-climate.
- The fauna of Peru is similar to Pacific.
- Calcified remains marine plants Andes.
- raised beaches with human cultural remains like nets high up in the Andes.
- "Titicaca contains known sea life"?
- "sea ports in the Andes".
- Tiahuanaco was flooded.
- they could not have built some of the megalithic/monolithic structures in such high altitude rarified air.
- lake Titicaca's "old water lines are slanted/tilted".
- cracked & strewn buildings & blocks at Tiahuanaco.
- "mega disaters Pumapunku"?
- Lissner (after Posnansky) says Tiahuanaco is covered in lava.
- Hercules holding Antaeus up off the earth could possibly connect with Andes raised higher?
(Andes uplifted evidences refs: Darwin, Velikovsky, Lissner, Berlitz, etc.)

II. The whole large island sank?

We have seen that the small royal island capital city certainly "sank". It is maybe also a possibility that the whole large island also "sank". The Atlantis account details imply that the "sinking" happened in a catastrophe of massive global-/regional-size proportions which seemingly may match either/both earth crust displacement pole shift, and/or continental shift.

Some translations do say that Atlantis "sank", but others say it was "swallowed(-up)".
"there occured terrible/portentous/exceeding-great earthquake(s) & flood(s), and (in) one (grievous) day & night of-destruction/befell-them, all the warriors in your land / the whole body of your warriors were swallowed up by the earth, and in (a) like manner the nesos/island (of) Atlantis was swallowed (up) by the thalassa/sea, and disappeared/vanish(ed) (away) ... quantity of mud...." (Timaeus 25d-e, & Critias 109a.)
Philo says "in 1 day & night overwhelmed beneath sea in extraordinary earthquake(s) and flood(s)".
"A large island was swallowed up" (Marcellinus).
"... memory of a larger island" Proclus.
Some classical sources mention ships/boats going-out to look for Atlantis and not finding it where it had been or where they thought it had been.
Kirchir map possibly shows [South] America closer than [North] America?
The Sea Peoples' "islands are uprooted and carried away .... The might of Nun (the Ocean) broke forth and fell in a great wave upon their towns and villages". (Both crust displacement and continental shift entail sloshing of seas over the land.)
"A serpent populace was destroyed by a star falling from the heavens. Only one survived on an island destined to be completely submerged" (Leningrad Papyrus).
"seismic upheaval & stars fell to earth" (Washo myth).
"Tawenduare stamped his foot so hard on ground that flood gushed forth" (Tupi-Guarani).
"brought earth to top as fast as fish nibbed away" (Amerind myth).
"sky fall on heads" (Celtic).
"stars fell to earth"?

"Atlantis must have been on the same fault line as Athens" is resolved by whole earth crust displacement or by touching tectonic plates.
If there was a continental shift and the ocean widened then the whole large island Atlantis would have genuinely appeared to have been "sunk beneath the sea" and disappeared/vanished except for "muddy" "shoal".
Hapgood had continents shifts in his book/theory.

It is the opinion in some sources that the Atlantis Account implies a "change in the path of the sun" ("Phaethon", and/or Atlantis was "then beneath the sun"). Peru/Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku was on the equator at one time according to pole shift(s) maps. Perhaps compare the "hitching post of the sun" at Macchu Picchu?
The two + and x compass points crosses in the Inca picture from the Coricancha might also possibly imply pole shift? The tilted route of Viracocha?
(There is no mention of ice in the Atlantis "sinking" catastrophe re the Antarctica theory, though the extremities of heat and cold may imply pole shift.)
Plato's 4 world ages may be linked with the 3 deluges and may reflect pole shifts?
Flem-Ath said that the [?west] coast of (North) America once faced-south in a previous pole position, like the Account says the side of Atlantis faced south?

Evidences that the Andes region was previously lower and was later suddenly uplifted higher.
Cracked & strewn buildings & blocks at Tiahuanco imply a pretty major catastrophe.
Evidence at Tiahuanaco of "an avalanche/flood of water, and a sudden upheaval of unknown nature".
Mass extinction sites from Alaska to Mexico and from Bogota to Fuego.
I have heard that modern science found evidence of a change in climate and air currents and sea currents in the Andes and in Easter island?
Eels, butterflies, lemmings, and birds going out into Atlantic may imply either that the Atlantic was once narrower width due to either continental shift, or submerged continental edges, or submerged mid-Atlantic islands? (Though some claim that these animals migrations claims are not true?) This would also alleviate the Atlantis distance detail dispute.
Stonehenge damaged on the south-west side.
Continental shift might possibly be "geologically impossible", but earth crust displacement or "pole shift" has had general agreement in some scholarly circles in recent decades.
Lots of ancient and modern sources given evidences for catastrophism versus uniforitarianism. Velikovsky's book 'Earth in Upheaval' is full of such evidences.

If it was the whole large island that "sank beneath the sea" then it may not be totally literally true and be being taken too over-literally by critics.
Compare that "Joshua halting the sun" / "the sun standing still" in the Bible though it is true it is not literal is it?
Scientists said they saw with their own eyes "Venus turning inside out" but someone  said to me "it didn't literally/really/actually turn inside out".
Celts believing the "sky falling on their heads" isn't totally literal is it?
The ancient sources saying "the Sun god descended into & travelled through the underworld" isn't quite literally correct is it?

Possible matches in the Atlantic ocean an/or its seas for the muddy sea or shoal(s) of mud and/or the unnavigable/inaccessable sea include:
Sargasso sea?
"mucky water Bermuda"?
Atlantic sea floor sediments?
Bermuda triangle?
changed sea/air currents or gulf stream?
banks/bars/rises like Brendan's whale?
increased width of Atlantic Ocean from continental shift?
The shoal might be same as the shoal of Sesostris in Herodotus?
agregations of green scum / expanse of slippery mud (Zuni);
mud banks (Hopi);
great expanse of fetid mud (Chiriguano);
pesi "rice water" (Thai)?
mud (Crow)?
clay (Creek)?
red clay (Cree)?

* Vertical is either land went down (sinking, subsidence), or water went up (submergence, rising sea levels, Flood, tidal bulge).
Horizontal is land &/or water went sideways (continental shift, crust displacement / pole shift, expanding globe, axis tilt, tidal wave/"tsunami"; slosh).
There is not necessarily any volcanic explosion implied in the account re the Thera/Santorini theory.

 ------

Further matches between the "sinking" event in the Account and our scenarios can be seen in these quotes about the "sinking" catastrophe in "Plato's" Atlantis Account (Critias & Timaeus) from two different translations.

"the destruction of the actors" / "destruction of human life" Timaeus 21a.
"after the deluge, to tell of Deucalion and Pyrrha" / "how Deucalion and Pyrrha survived the flood" Tim 22b.

"there have been and there will be again many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes. There is a story ... that ... Phaethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's  chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all there was upon the earth.... ... this ... signifies a declination of the bodies moving around the earth & in the heavens, and a great conflaguration of things upon the earth recurring at long intervals of time" / "There have been and there will be many different calamities to destroy mankind, the greatest of them by fire and water, lesser ones by countless other means. ... story of ... Phaethon, child of the sun, harnessed his father's chariot, but was unable to guide it along his father's course and so burnt up things on the earth ... is ... truth that there is at long intervals a variation in the course of the heavenly bodies and a consequent widespread destruction by fire of things on the earth." Tim 22c-d.

"When on the other hand the gods purge the earth with a deluge of water...." Tim 22e.
"whatever the extremity of winter frost or summer sun does not prevent" / "where excessive cold or heat does not prevent it" Tim 23a.
"then, at the usual period, the stream from heaven descends like a pestilence..." / "when the periodic scourge of deluge descends" Tim 23b.
"you remember one deluge only, whereas/though there have-been/were many (of them)" Timaeus 23c.

"for many generations the survivors of that destruction" / "the few survivors tha remained" Tim 23c.

"that great deluge of all" / "the greatest of all destructions by water" Tim 23d.
"for in those days the Atlantic was navigable" Timaeus 25a.
"... there occured violent earthquakes and floods, and in a single day and night of (extraordinary) rain all your warlike men in a body sunk into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared, and was sunk beneath the sea. And that is the reason why the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is such a quantity of shallow mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island." / "there were earthquakes and floods of extraordinary violence, and in a single dreadful day and night all your fighting men were swallowed up by the earth, and the island of Atlantis was similarily swallowed up by the sea and vanished; that is why the sea in that area is to this day impassable to navigation" Timaeus 25d-e.

"... afterward sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to the ocean." / "... subsequently overwhelmed by earthquakes, and is [now] the source of the impenetrable mud which prevents the free passage of those who sail [to the sea beyond]" Critias 109a.

"Many great deluges have taken place during the 9000 years..." Crit 111b.
"There was a single spring in ... [Athens] that was subsequently choked by the earthquakes..." Crit 112e.
"... then still under/beneath the sun..." Critias 115c.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 30-Dec-2018 at 02:39
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2018 at 21:08

Thanks Atlantean, i will read and reply when can. Though i am abit frustrated that no matter what evidences we give it doesn't seem to change anything.

5. Pillars of Hercules.

Atlantis is said to have been opposite or beyond or outside of the pillars of Hercules, and these pillars are usually placed at Gibraltar. Herodotus, who was between Solon & Plato, also seemingly has (Tartessos & the Celts beyond) the pillars of Hercules in the vicinity of Gibraltar? However this is a problem because some say that the original Greek words imply that Atlantis was immediately 'protu' "before" or facing or in front of or in(side of) the pillars/mouth/strait, and that stelai means commemorative markers/slabs not supportive columns, plus it is also claimed that there are a dozen other rival ancient claimed pillars locations all around the ancient world. (Santos listed 9 sites identified as locations of pillars of Hercules. Zamaro has identified 13 locations of pillars of Hercules.) It is said in some sources that there were 12 pillars of Hercules.

List of Pillars of Hercules location candidates: Some say Aesir means "pillars of the world"; "name of an head of land in Britaine called Promontorium Herculis"; Hercules is said to have fought Albion son of Neptune; Iber & Celtus the 2 sons of Hercules; pillars of Hercules near the Rhine in territory of the Frisians or in the Baltic; some sources suggest Hercules &/or Odysseus visted Germania &/or Scotland; Tower of Hercules (Galicia); Hercules place name at Huelva; temple of Melkart in Gades; Calpe & Abyla/Abila at Gibraltar (Peutinger, Pindar/Strabo, Eratosthenes, Servius); "the tall pillars" kept on the island of Calypso/Ogygia (Homer's Odyssey); Pillars of Briareus (placed near Ogygia in Plutarch); Scylla & Charbydis (Messena, Sicily); Capo Colonna in Calabria; Cape Maleas/Laconia/Peloponnese; Danube; Dardanelles/Bosporus (Symplegades); Herakleion & Menouth; pillars of Sesostris (Herodotus); Siriadic columns; 4 pillars of the firmament/heaven (Egyptian); Caphtor "capital"; Philistines (Judges); Jachin & Boaz; 2 pillars of gold & emerald in temple at Tyre; Iram of the Columns; gate(way)s/stair(way)s at far west & far east (Mesopotamian); Kungkung butting down the pillars of heaven (Chinese).

The pillars must be at least as far as Gibraltar because of the mention in the Atlantis Account of Gades, Atlas mountains, "upto Tyrrhenia", "from next Libya", the Atlantic, the real ocean, the inner Mediterranean sea. The Greeks also knew of Tartessos ("founded 700(0)/600(0) years before") and Gades ("founded in 1100 bc"). Necho's fleet circumnavigated Africa in ca 600 bc. Phoenicians/Carthaginians controlled the Atlantic region, while Greeks controled the Mediterranean. Hercules in his 12 labours is considered to have went as far as Erythia, the Hesperides (in far west), Atlas, Hades.* Atlantis was too large to fit in the Mediterranean.
 Our large island matches being beyond and opposite/facing these pillars, but our island & city doesn't match being before/inside them.

The "first mention of Pillars of Hercules" in 476 bc is after Solon, and this 476 bc source just seems to confirm that P.of H. stood for the/a/any farthest point. (It seems that there were pillars at the both the western & eastern limits of the Greek's known world? Compare the eastern pillars of Dionysus? The altars of Alexander?)

There could have been pillars of Hercules at the Azores which some identify as being Ogygia where there were "tall columns" (Odyssey).
The Azores might possibly even be connected with Caphtor which some say may be from "kapita/capital (of pillar/column)", or "knob"?

It is said that there was an ancient version of the Panama canal at Tehuantepec in Mexico (SC Compton, 'Exodus Lost'), and this might be a possible location of ancient pillars of Hercules similar to the ones at Gibraltar? Perhaps compare "the extremity/furthest-part of the island towards the pillars of Hercules, as-far-as/and-facing the country which is still/now called the region of Gades in that part of the world" (Critias 114c)?
(Gadeira is faintly similar to Kaptara/Caphtor? Gadir & Cabiri & Caribs?)

The pillars of Hercules were the most furtherest end of the (known) world.
The 'Sea Peoples' came "from the pillar/pillars of heaven", "from the ends of the world/earth", the "9th bow/arc" of the 10 arcs/bows of the Egyptian world, "the isles and mainland of the outer circle of water". (The 10 bows/arcs might possibly correspond with the 12 sections of Amenti/Tuat and the 12 pillars of Hercules?)
Peru where our capital city of Atlantis is qualifies as the furtherest western ends of the world.

It is alleged that a more accurate translation of the Atlantis Account's original Greek words reads "outside they came from the sea of Atlas", which some say means they "came outside". "Atlantis was inside the Pillars, Athens was outside the Pillars".

Possible matches for the pillars in our site's area include:
- Tiahuanaco is situated roughly halfway between 2 of the greatest mountain peaks of the Andes. (Atlas is connected with mountains and also pillar/pillars.)
- Some identify the twin peaked Mt Mashu with Macchu Picchu.
- 2 pillars flanking the Atlas pillar in Andean pictures? (Sources say there were either 2 or 3 pillars of Hercules.)
- The "candelabra" of Paracas?
- There are masssive pillars at the bottom of the Milne-Edwards deep off the coast of Peru?
- The pillars of Kalasas(a)ya? Kalasas(a)ya  means "standing pillars" or "stone standing up"? Tiwanaku sculpture column-like figures?
- 2 colossal busts or 2 stone idols at Tiahuanaco. (Perhaps compare the 2 rocks "father" & "mother" left after the Flood in Zuni, and/or Kame & Keri of Caribs?)
- There are 2 narrow straits in lake Titicaca that could possibly analogously correspond to the straits of Gibraltar / pillars of Hercules?
- Herakles/Hercules might possibly match Viracocha (v is also hu in Peruvian)?
- Scotia sea?

The Account might confound the analogous Titicaca and Mediterranean seas?
In & out are relative to the people on both sides.

* The route of the labours of Hercules is supposed to have been: 1,2 Argolis -> 3 Arcadia -> 5 Elis -> 6 Arcadia -> 7 Crete -> 8 Thrace -> 10 Erythia (far west) -> 11 Libya/Atlas/Hesperides (far west) -> 12 Hades -> Olympos.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 30-Dec-2018 at 02:19
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  Quote Atlantean35 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2018 at 20:36
I've been trying to come up with a comprehensive explanation for my conclusion but I found that the range of topics was spiraling out of control. Basically, I wouldn't know where to begin or end the explanation. Thus, I am somewhat forced to give an indirect answer to your question.

In primeval stone age times, the old world continent was divided into three districts that were clearly separated from each other. Two of these districts are fairly obvious. Subsaharan Africa and Eurasia. The native people of these two districts look very different from the other, indicating a clear divergence and separation. And the reason for this divergence and separation is the massive Sahara desert. Without an appropriate level of technology, this desert was virtually impossible to cross. So in stone age time, there was very little interaction between Subsaharan Africa and Eurasia.

However, there is one other district of separation that is less obvious. This district is the Nile River Delta region. It is much smaller than either Subsaharan Africa and Eurasia, but was lush in wildlife and large enough to support a decent sized stone age population. This delta region is surrounded by near endless desert, especially by stone age human standards, making it nearly isolated. This isolation is somewhat broken by the Nile River cutting through the Sahara. But before the invention of agriculture and irrigation, the desert portion of the Nile was almost as desolate. Also, not only is this delta region surrounded by nearly endless desert, it also has a natural moat from where the Nile River splits, basically separating the delta region from the mainland and making the region a virtual island fortress. Once a group established themselves there, it was basically impervious to invaders. And this is where we get the third level of separation and divergence.

Since the Nile River Delta region was so well protected from the anarchy and chaos of the stone age, the people here were afforded a long term level of stability not found anywhere else in the world. This made it ideal for technological development and storing knowledge that could be built on and built on through the ages, without the danger of stone age chaos and anarchy destroying everything. This is Atlantis.


Edited by Atlantean35 - 29-Dec-2018 at 20:49
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2018 at 13:45

4. Atlantic sea or ocean?

Ocean:
- Atlantis was "(at a distant point) in the Atlantic (sea/ocean)". This has always been placed in the vicinity of the modern Atlantic Ocean. The Atlantis account implies that Atlantis was west of Gades, Atlas, the pillars, Tyrrhenia, Libya.
Herodotus between Solon and Plato placed the Atlantic roughly where the modern Atlantic ocean is.
"3 islands of Zeus, Poseidon, Hades in the West(ern sea)".
"in the Atlantic sea, on the coast of Europe" (Marcellinus).
(Some say that the Atlantic was the world ocean, but the Atlantic still has seemingly always been associated with the Atlantic ocean part and not other ocean parts.)
The word pelagos usually means a small inner/inland/shallow sea, but it is sometimes used for open/deep ocean/sea. One source said that the Mediterranean had a number of pelagoses, and that the Atlantic pelagos was the one outer pelagos of the Mediterranean. (If there was a continental shift then the Atlantic may also have once been narrower/smaller/shallower? The 5 oceans are sometimes called the "7 seas" which include the North Atlantic & South Atlantic. The word pelagos might be related to Peleg and "earth divided" of Genesis 10 & 11?)

The Atlantis Account seems to imply that Atlantis was in the outer "real ocean" not in the small inner Mediterranean sea (Tim 25b, Flem-Ath, Spanuth, compare geopolitics)?
"divers/many-other islands in the open-sea/ocean;" Crit 114d.
Atlantis was "out in deep off Libya a number of days sail to west" / "many days sailing across the Atlantic" (Diodorus Siculus 3:56).
Kirchir's spurious map has Atlantis in the Atlantic.
"the external sea" (Proclus).
"a remote land in the middle of the ocean" (Timagenes).
"Those who live on the shores of Okeanos tell a fable of how the ancient kings of Atlantis...." (Aelian).
The Phaeacians/Scherians "dwell apart afar in the ocean/deep", "navel of sea...", and "the Phaeacians had the fastest ships, clippers that carry them across far-flung seas" (Odyssey 4:568, 5:275, 7, 12:1).
The Sea Peoples (n-p(a)-iam) came from "the isles and mainland of the outer circle of water" / "the great water circle [sin-wur]".
"Thoth was born in a  distant country to the west which was  across a body of water."
Tarshish was across a sea 2000 parasangs wide/long.
Hrozny gave pictures/descriptions of Indus Valley seals, etc with 2 steps/feet & a boat which seemed to us to possibly be linked with the Old World and Atlantic and Americas/Atlantis?
The western hemisphere & southern hemisphere & south-west quadrant have more water/sea/ocean than the eastern hemisphere & northern hemisphere & north-east quadrant. (The water hemisphere is centered on the Pacific.)
The Phoenicians are supposed to have come from the Red Sea, and they might have come from Strabo's Erythrean sea which was west of Spain?
The Atlantic and the Persian Gulf are the two main known sites for ocean/sea springs.
There are no sunken/submerged large landmasses in the Atlantic, but America can be said to be in the Atlantic (and there also might have been continental shifts).

The "Atlantic" or real ocean could be either/both sides of Atlantis/America (Atlantic &/or Pacific).

Sea:
- The Account original Greek words seem to imply that the Atlantic sea was lake Titicaca (which was once "a vast inland sea").
Atlantis city was "on the sea side of the island", and was near the sea, a certain stades distance from the sea (which matches the distance between Tiahuanaco & lake Titicaca). This sea is either an inland sea or an ocean/sea coast. Some scholars agree that an inland sea is implied in the Account (eg Jim Allen).
The Atlantic is a pelagos/"sea" not a thalassa (and the muddy sea is a 'mare'). It is said that pelagos means shallow/small/enclosed sea not deep/big/open sea/ocean.
"At a distant point in the Atlantic".
"from its base in the Atlantic / this power came forth out of the Atlantic ocean", "outside they came from the sea of Atlas" / "outside jumped from this Atlantic small-shallow sea" (Tim 25a).
"this sea which is within Pillars of Hercules is only a harbour having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea." (Tim 25b.)
("Atlantis was inside the Pillars, Athens was outside the Pillars". protu "before" the pillars/mouth. The pillars of Hercules were the most distant/furtherest point of world. Pillars in Andean pictures flanking Atlas pillar?)
The 2 'Stede Citades' lakes in Azores seem to be analogous to the 2 parts of lake Titicaca.
Muddy sea may match Titicaca better than Atlantic ocean.

Tiahuanaco is both near lake Titicaca and near the Pacific ocean. Certain sources also give evidences proving that Titicaca & Poopo (& Salinas?) were connected with the (Pacific) ocean/sea in ancient times. "Titicaca contains known sea life". "Sea ports in the Andes". Evidence that Andean sites once had a Pacific geo-climate (Darwin, Velikovsky, Lissner).

- Atlantipedia says some maps and texts confusedly applied the name Atlantic ocean to west Mediterranean, and state that Tyrrhenia is in the Atlantic, and that Seneca and Cicero alledgedly refered to Mediterranean as Atlantic sea. However, this conflicts with the evidences for the Atlantic ocean and/or lake Titicaca. Atlantis was too "large" an island to fit in the Mediterranean. Plus, it may be explained by the Atlanteans "conquered upto Tyrrhenia & Libya". (The W & E Mediterranean Sea(s) might possibly be analogous to the 2 parts of Titicaca, lake Chucuito & lake Huinaymarca?)

- This Atlantic sea & real ocean detail rules-out the (Pacific,) Indian ocean, Mediterranean. It rules in the Atlantic, (Pacific,) and lake Titicaca.

* Oceans/seas/lakes: "Amazonian sea", Titicaca, lake Chucuito, lake Huinaymarca, Irreantum, Caribbean, Salt Lake, Midland, (N & S) Atlantic, North sea, Sargasso, Aral, Baltic, Deucaledonian, Coagulatum, Western sea, mare, (W & E) Mediterranean, Tyrrhenian, Caspian, Wine Dark sea, Atlantic pelagos, Tenebrosium, Chronian, Oceanus, pelagos, mesopelagia, pan-pelagos, Aegean, Nereus, Tethys, Thetis, Pontus, Proteus, Glaucus, Phorcys, Euxine, Thalassa, Poseidon, Erythrean, Ethiopian, Tritonis/Djerid, "Sahara sea", Nun, Sin Wer, Wadj Wer "Great Green", npiam, Red, Reed/Weed, Yam Suph, Great Sea, Dead/Salt sea, Galilee, Amurru, Marratu, Persian Gulf, "Gobi sea", Malay sea, Tasman, Pacific/Oceania, Antarctic, Ross, Bering, Panocean, Panthalassa, 5 oceans, 7 seas, 4 seas, 3 concentric rings of Atlantis.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 29-Dec-2018 at 13:51
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2018 at 22:44

3. Atlantis distance Far/Out not Near/In:

(This detail is one of the biggest commonest sceptical criticisms that people have often tried to counter our found Andean location of Atlantis capital city with.)

- The Account implies that Atlantis was in the outer "real ocean" not in the inner Mediterranean sea indentation (Plato 'Timaeus', Dio Sic, Aelian, Timagenes, Flem-Ath, Spanuth, compare geopolitics)?
They invaded "upto Tyrrhenia (Italy) & Libya (nw Africa)" or "from next Libya"; "the whole of the land which is within the straits",
"all those who dwelt/lived outside/inside the pillars";
("against the whole of Europe & Asia".)

- Atlantis was "at a distant point in the Atlantic".

- Atlantis was beyond/by the pillars of Hercules (the furtherest point of the world), which are usually placed at Gibraltar. Hercules visited the Atlas mountains and the Hesperides in the far west.

- Atlanteans were "invaders" (Tim 25d.)

- "Atlanteans were unmixed with other mortal stock" (Crit 121).

- Atlantis was "at the ends of the earth", "remotest" (Dio Sic 3:56).

- Diodorus Siculus says Atlantis was "out in deep off Libya a number of days sail to west" / "many days sailing across the Atlantic". (Peruvian was one of the furtherest ancient high cultures of the world.)

- "a remote land in the middle of the ocean" (Timagenes).
- "at the ends of the earth", "remotest" (Dio Sic 3:56).
- 50 stades (500 miles) (Plutarch)
- "5 days sail west of Britain". (Compare modern Atlantic crossing records.)
- "not far to the west of Europe ... memory of a larger island" (Proclus).

- The claim that Atlantis must be on same faultline as Athens is only theory and is not definite concrete proof because there are ifs and buts.

- Opinions that Atlantis can't have been too far/distant* are only based on supposed lack of evidence, or arguments/interpretations or unfair dismissals/denials/rejections, and opinions/disbeliefs, and they do not erase what evidences there are.

- "Atlanteans were oustanding sailors (had 1200 ships)" (Spanuth's impression of Critias 117, 119).

- Atlas holding up the earth and sky/heaven may imply at edge/end/bottom of world? (Atlas studying spheres may imply a location near heaven?)

(- The statue in Azores pointing west with word "this way" (in Quechua) implies that Atlantis city (Tiahuanco) was beyond Azores (Oygyia?) and shows their route?)

(- The Heliolithic culture is found in various places around the world including Peru.)

(- Celts had high-sea-faring ships fleet in Caesar's/Roman times.)

(- Kittim were "invaders".)

(- Tarshish's name is associated with "a sea 2000 parasangs wide".)

(- "the Phaeacians had the fastest ships, clippers that carry them across far-flung seas (Odyssey 7.)"
 "the Phaeacians were the best sailors, Poseidon made them a sailor folk (Odyssey 7.)"
The Phaeacians/Scherians "dwell apart afar in ocean/deep", "most remote of men...", at the "boundary of world...".)

(- Hyper-borea "beyond the north wind".)

(- "Thoth was born in a  distant country to the west which was  across a body of water.")

(- The Sea Peoples of Egyptian inscriptions, who some think seemingly may match the Atlanteans, came "from the ends of the world/earth", "great darkness", "9th bow/arc", "the isles and mainland of the outer circle of water [sin-wur]",  "from the pillars/pillar of heaven", and had "a great fleet of sailed-ships with arching prows at each end, in the shape of bird-heads.... ... the sailed ships of the Peleset were overwhelmed by the slave-oared Egyptian river craft....")

- The width of the Atlantic might have been smaller in ancient times if there was possibly a continental shift which later widened it? Also/alternatively lower sea-levels would reduce the distance a little (continental shelves/ledges/edges and mid-Atlantic islands). Also, Africa sticks out futher west than Europe, and South America is centered further east than North America.

- This distance detail rules out the Mediterraean sea.

* "where are the evidences of Atlantean culture everywhere in between Peru & Egypt?"
- The Heliolithic culture is found around the world including Peru.
- Philistines (pillar cult, 5, etc).
- Other concentric "Troy" cities copies (Maiden Castle, Troy).
- The Megalithic culture occupied roughly the same area of Europe and the Mediterranean as Atlanteans did ("upto Tyrrhenia & Libya") (refs SB Cox, McEvedy).
- Wessex culture shows international trade.
- UK has evidences of Atlantean visitors (Stonehenge, Maiden Castle, Cerne Abbas, etc).
- West Africa has evidences of Atlantean connections (Olokun etc).
- Donnelly and others show Atlantean connections on both sides of the Atlantic.
- Evidence of links between Tierra Dentro (in Columbia) and Malta sites.
- Andean civilisation extended from Tiahuanaco (Bolivia) as far as Quito (Ecuador).
- Tiahuanaco/Peru had "extensive trade routes".

* The arguments that "countries usually invade their neighbours" and "they couldn't have projected their power/invasion across America + Atlantic + Mediterranean" and "where are the bases anywhere between Peru & Egypt" are not absolute proof, eg the account says they invaded "upto Tyrrhenia and Libya" or "from next Libya".

* As to why "there are seemingly no shipwrecks anywhere between Peru & Egypt", this has possible answers such as Atlantis only had 1200 ships, they may not have been found yet, they may have only been reed boats and/or have perished, there are some finds that they are ignorant of, or they recycled parts? Do we have extensive remains of other nations boats/ships etc throughout history? 
There are evidences for greater distance ancient trans-Atlantic sea-faring.
"maps of the sea kings" (Piri Reis map, Hapgood). "the seas were highways not barriers" (Hancock). "Sea power came before land power" (Hitler & Varange/Yockey based on the Geopolitics of Haushofer & MacKinder). Heyerdahl disproved his critics. Noah's Ark. The Popul Vuh says the 1st race examined the 4 quarters of the earth. "Abaris gone all round the world without once eating"? There is  evidence that Tiahuanaco was once a great sea port. "Sea ports in the Andes" (Velikovsky). An ocean going ship of exotic design found while digging mines on Peruvian coasts.
Peruvians had "sea-worthy rafts" (ref Readers Digest 'Vanished Civs').
The legend of Naymlap tells of the arrival of a great fleet of balsa-reed boats (Chimu/Mochica, refs Sitchin, Pears).
Chimu (Chan chan) pottery figure of "reed boat" titled "life on the ocean wave" (ref Readers Digest 'Vanished Civs')?
Dragon-boat racing Puno?
10 ships Paraiba inscription (refs Kolosimo)?
Many scholars/authors have given many evidences for pre-Columbian trans-Atlantic contacts (including Pierre Honore, Nigel Davies, Barry Fell, Donald MacKenzie, Z Sitchin's 'Lost Realms', T Heyerdahl, SC Compton's 'Exodus Lost', Jim Allen's Atlantis in Bolivia site, Fitzgerald-Lee's 'Great Migration', etc.)*

* Evidences of pre-Columbian trans-Atlantic contacts include:
- "Assyrian depictions of Toakkari 'Sea Peoples' bearing South American fan palm"?
- 3 pyramids of Sipan are similar to 3 pyramids of Giza?
- Clovis related to Solutrean?
- American C0caine & tobacco found in 19th & 21st dyn mummies?
- Phoenician purple from Mexican murex (SC Compton 'Exodus Lost')?
- Evidence of links between Tierra Dentro (in Columbia) and Malta sites (Frank Joseph)?
- Quite a few Amerind traditions say they came from the east over/through the sea (ref Berlitz).
- Anaku "tin land" may match Wanaku / Tiwanaku?
- Quinoa/Qeenwah "mother of all grains" recalls Eve/Hawah "other of all life"?
- Heliolithic culture found all around world including Peru.
- "Unusual alloys" of Africa similar to "unusual alloys" of America?
- birds, lemmings & eels going out towards the other side of the Atlantic?

From the above points people should be able to see that Atlantis was pretty far/distant/remote and not very close/near. Some details like the Pilars of Hercules we need to address further in separate posts on them. The asterisked sections also will be more extensively addressed in separate posts specially on them.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 28-Dec-2018 at 22:51
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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