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matching Biblical & Egyptian history

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: matching Biblical & Egyptian history
    Posted: 13-Nov-2018 at 01:03

We decided that we would like to post on Biblical history and archaeology because there are often claims being said in some sites and articles which we are not able to comment on (eg i recently saw a site saying the exodus chariots wheels match 18th dynasty). The three most major nations to especially be addressed in a Biblical history threads are Egypt, Israel/Palestine, and Mesopotamia/Iraq, and it is best to have different threads on each of them rather than one for all. So this first thread is on Biblical and Egyptian. Anyone is welcome to comment or discuss/debate but it would be good if people can try to not just criticise seeming/supposed weak/wrong points but to also acknowledge good/right/possible points too. Orthodox academics/peers/experts consensus theories are not all proven definite concrete fact.

There are a dozen or so contact points between these 2 nations/cultures during their histories, which we will post on in different posts.

Timeline of contacts with Egypt in Biblical history:
(Gihon?)
(Seth)
Ham
Mizraim
Pharaoh/Abraham
Isaac told "dont go down into Egypt"
Pharaoh/Joseph
430 yrs
Pharaoh/Moses/exodus, 2666 am
(golden calf?)
"no mention of Egypt in Judges"?
Sheba?
Shishak
Zerah?
Zoan/Noph, So, Tirhakah
Necho, Hophra, 70 years exile/desolate
king of south?
Joseph/Jesus in Egypt
Mark, NagHammadi, St Catherine
Saladin
6 day war
Jerusalem called "Sodom & Egypt" in Revelation
United kingdom/federation of Egypt, Israel & Iraq in a biblical prophecy.

Timeline of contacts with Israel/Palestine in Egyptian history:
(10 god-kings; Seth)
(Shemre?)
3rd/4th dyn Byblos
4th dyn Philitis
5th dyn Sahure/Dorak
6th dyn Ebla
FIP Asiatics
12th dyn Sinuhe, Jerusalem, Asher/Menti, Lahun/Kahun, Abesha/Amu/Shut
13th dyn Yantin
15/16th dyn Hyksos, horses/chariots ("afraid of Assyrians")
18th dyn Punt? 18th dyn Joppa, Megiddo
18th dyn Amarna, Habiru, Jerusalem
19th dyn Kadesh, Ramses,
19th dyn Merneptah "Israel" stele
19-20th dyn Osarsiph/Arisu a 'Kharu'
20th Sea Peoples
21st dyn Wenamun
22nd dyn Sheshonk, Fankhu, Assyrians
25th dyn Assyrians
26th dyn Neco, Carchemish
27th/31st dyn Elephantine
33rd dyn Septuagint, Leontopolis
NagHammadi
Saladin
6 day war

In this first post we start on one of the points which is Joseph of Genesis in Egypt.

Joseph's placement in Egyptian history has ranged from the 2nd dynasty to 19th/20th or 22nd dynasty in different scholars opinions!

Table of Joseph in Egypt placement theories:
Never (myth)
2nd dyn (me, a Hancock forum poster)
3rd dyn (Djoser, Imhotep, Sekhemhet) (Walker, Wyatt, Mohler, me)
4th dyn (Suphis, Sphinx, Djedefre) (Hoeh, me)
5th dyn (Ptahhotep, Unas) (Wyatt, Courville, me)
11th dyn (Mentuhotep 2, Inyotef) (Clarke, Rohl)
12th dyn (Sesostris 1, vizier Mentuhotep, Ptahwer) (Rohl, Alford, Bullen, Couville)
13th dyn (Aufni, Sobeknakht) (Bullen)
14th dyn (PSBA)?
15/16th dyn (Apophis, Hyksos) (Brugsch-Bey, Compton, others)
17th dyn (Jerome)
"immediately before 18th dyn" (Bey)
18th dyn (vizier of Ahmose 1, Yuya, Dudu, Ianhama, Amenophis son of Hapu) (Marquart, Jeremias, Mercer, Barton, Rancke, Boysen, Albright, Osman, Sullivan)
19th dyn (drought & famine, chancellor Bay) (2018 linkedin group comments)
19/20th dyn (Osarsiph/Arsu, 13 yrs) (Sayce, PSBA, others)
22nd dyn (PSBA)?

We can see that there are 3 or 4 main periods including or excluding the uncertain PSBA ones: Old Kingdom (2-5), Middle Kingdom & SIP & New Kingom (11-20), and the 22nd dyn? Or, Old Kingdom (2-5), Middle Kingdom (11-13), SIP/Hyksos & New Kingdom (15-20), and the 22nd dyn? The orthodox "consensus" chronology favours the Hyksos period, and this rules-out later dynasties unless their Egyptian chronology dates are too short/low (or bible dates are too long/old/high) which we and they agree is very unlikely, which leaves us with 2 or 3 main periods.

Now to prove what dynasty/period Joseph was or was not in we have to find which one has the best quality and quantity matches between the biblical story details and Egyptian historical evidences, though it may be that only one or a couple/few will be accepted by experts as major enough proof while for other matches it might be claimed that one "can find matches for them anywhere/everywhere".

Joseph story details that must match the dynasty he was in include:
- true-dates match.
- Potiphar match
- Potiphar's wife (story) match
- Pharaoh match
(- cupbearer &/or baker matches)
- Joseph/Zaphenath-paneah name/person match.
- vizier match
- gold chain match
- chariot/horse match.
- Potiphera match
- Asenath match
- 7 yrs plenty match
- storehouses/granaries match
- 7 yrs famine match
- Ephraim & Manasseh match
- Jacob (& Israel?) name/person match
(- 70 souls)
- Ramses match
- Goshen match
- Semites in Egypt match.
- 17 years in Egypt match
(- Lion of Judah match?)
- Jacobs couch
- 40/70 days match
- journey to Canaan to bury Jacob
- 110 years match
- 430 yrs match.
- new king knew not Joseph.

We will now gradually address some of these matches in our and orthodox and others Joseph placement theories in seperate posts.

#. Storehouses and 7 years famine matches in Egyptian.

In our own discovery-placement of Joseph in the 2nd/3rd to 4th/5th dynasties we have some good possible matches evidences for the 7 years famine including:
- Egyptian wheat found in western neolithic Lake Dwellings built on dried-up lake shores. (Childe corresponded western neolithic with Merimde in Egyptian prehistory. Danubians also had 7 years agricultural cycle.)
- Neferkasokar/Sesochris (2nd dynasty) "saved Egypt from a long lasting drought".
- The 7 years drought of Djoser in the 3rd dynasty mentioned in the Sahel/Philae inscription, which Wyatt showed has alot of details similarities with the Genesis story verses.
- Wyatt claimed to have found "grain storage bins" at the Step Pyramid complex of Djoser/Zoser? (This might also be connected: "a number of inscribed stone vessels of the rulers of the first two dynasties were collected and deposited in storage galleries beneath the Step Pyramid of Djoser, a Pharaoh of the 3rd Dynasty, which were sealed off by the construction of that building"?)
 The "pyramid" complex of Sekhemkhet (beside Djoser's pyramid complex in map, and the successor of Djoser in modern scholars' king lists) also has a large number of storage rooms.
- The "flood" & "fire" of Surid (3rd-4th dyn)?
- The Bent Pyramid (3rd-4th dyn) seemingly might represent the 7 years plenty and 7 years dearth because the bottom half is wider & top half narrower/shallower, and the bottom half big rocks & top half smaller stones, and the pyramid is connected with pi 3 and pi 4, plus the area is associated with St Joseph and is not far from "Joseph's Canal", and 110 yr old Djedi dwelt there.
- The Unas (5th dyn) famine scenes beside the 3rd dyn pyramid complex of Sekhemkhet (who has doens of matches with Joseph/Zaphenath).
- Models  of granaries in Old Kingdom tombs.
(- Joseph's famine is also found in the Epic of Gilgamesh at a roughly corresponding time: "have you saved grain, yes for 7 years".)
(- The granaries of Lagash in Sumerian might also possibly confirm the early date?)
(- The Peru drought of "2200+/-200?" bc may also be Joseph's and confirm early dynastic date?)

These are quite abit better quality and quantity matches than any other dynasty placement theory has. The 12th dynasty 12 years flood match with Joseph's famine is alot less quality match. Unfortunately though, we already know from past experiences that the critics have ways of dismissing all these matches. They also dimiss by claiming there were many famines/droughts in Egyptian history, but this is not valid because there were not many 7 years worldwide famines, and there were many famines/droughts in biblical history too which we can roughly match with the Egyptian ones, and Joseph's famine can only match one (period) not many/all.

Droughts/famines in Egyptian:
Shu "dryness, hot"?
Busiris (9 yrs);
Seth "desert"?
2 droughts between iceage and 1st dynasty;
Egyptian wheat in Lake Dwellings "prehistoric"
"Scorpion"?
Uenephes/Ata/Semti great famine 1st dyn
Neferkasokar 2nd dyn
Surid "fire" 3rd-4th dyn?
Djoser/Zoser 7 yrs drought/famine 3rd dyn
Unas famine scenes 5th dyn
models  of granaries in Old Kingdom tombs 4th-6th dyn
8 famines attributed to the "Dark Age" immediately following the collapse of the Old Kingdom.
A king of 9th dyn was Kaneferre, a famine in his reign.
Ipuwer papyrus famine "FIP or SIP"?
9 famines attributed to the period from the Dark Age to the reunification of Egypt under Mentuhotep I.
"7 empty years" between end 11 & beg 12th dyn (Mentuhotep?);
'hungry rock' Hapy failed to come period 7yrs, grain scant
none hungered/thirsted Amenemhet 1?
Mentuhotep distributed food/grain 12th dyn (Montgomery, Courville)?
"years of famine" Ameny (Senusret 1) 12th dyn;
famine Amenemhat Beni Hasan?
12 yrs flood 12th dyn
Ipuwer papyrus famine "FIP or SIP"?
"many years" famine, Beba (Seqenenre), 17th dyn?
("7 year famine Amenhotep 1"?)
stick figures / famine Tuthmosis 3, 18th dyn;
Amarna 3 yrs 18th dyn (refs Bbc, Velikovsky, etc)
drought & famine 19th dyn (Merneptah?)
Libya burnt up in Atlantis Account (Libya first mentioned in 19th dyn)?
13 fatal yrs 19th-20th dyn?
"upset weather conditions, Canopus inscription 240s"?

Droughts/famines in Biblical:
"scarcity of food after Flood"?
Elishah's name meaning may be connected with Joseph's famine?
Drought at Jericho between Natufian & Munhata/Yarmukian phases.
Abraham ca 5 yrs?
Isaac
Joseph 7 yrs
Anayer from land of 7 yrs famine met Moses
Ruth 10 yrs
David 3 yrs
Drought & famine in "13th cent bc" "late 2nd millenium bc" (date wrong)
Elijah 3 & a 1/2 yrs (1 Ki 18);
dearth Elisha 2 Ki 4;
great famine Elisha 2 Ki 6;
7 yrs famine Elisha 2 Ki 8.
drought Haggai 1:11;
Acts
40 hour famine
black horseman of Apocalypse/Revelation

#. Jacob name/person and 17 years match in Egyptian history:

One of the reasons for the orthodox/conventional placement of Joseph in the Hyksos period is that they have a supposed match for the name and person Jacob(-El) then. However they only have a name match, they havent proven the two persons are the same, and that fact the Egyptian names are different in having words added at the end, and the fact that there are two Jacob names/persons in the period (Yakub-her and Yakobaam) means that Jacob cant be both, and it also indicates that Jacob must have been before these two persons. (Khabaw of the 13th dynasty is also similar to Jacob and to some of our 3rd-4th dynasty candidates.)

In our own 3rd-4th dynasty placement of Joseph we have good candidates for matching the name and person of Jacob at Goshen in this period:
- Aches?
- Kha-ba (3rd dyn)?
- Khaibaw-sokar (3rd dyn)?
- Kawab?
- Khufu/Khufwey/Cheops at Giza (4th dyn).
- the shepherd Philitis "lover of righteousness" at Giza (4th dyn).
- Ka-aper the "sheik el-Beled"?

The name Jacob(-el) is considered to mean either "(may El/God) protect" (compare Yaqub-har "god Har watches over"), or aqeb/akaiv "heel(-catcher)", or  aqab "to usurp, supplanter", and some have related the name to Kocab "star" and "a star shall come out of Jacob". Some have compared Jacob with Aqaba which is considered to mean either aqeb "heel" or 'aqabat "mountain-pass (of Aila)".

The name (Khnum-)Khufu/Khufwey/Chufu/Cheops/Souphis is considered to mean "protected (by the god Khnum)" or "(Khnum) protect me".

The names Jacob and Khufu have same meaning of "protect" which is a pretty strong match evidence.

Khnum is a creation god similar to El/Jhvh, and some have corresponded the two. (Interestingly Alan Alford theorised that Khufu was an "evil" god like Set(h).)

Hoeh compared Khufu/Cheops with Job, and we see Job's name is closely similar to Jacob's (and both lived a similar length of years).
(Possibly also compare Kubau/Kubaba in the Sumerian king list who maybe has similarities with Khufu/Cheops and Jacob or Job(ab)?)

Khufu & Jacob have same letters/consonants c/ch/kh - o/u - b/p/f/fw, plus ja/e/ey/' at the front in the Hebrew and transposed at end in Egyptian. Some Egyptian names can be read with or without vowels at start eg Echet/Akhet/Khut, Akhenaten/Ikhnaton/Khunaton, Djosertety/Zoser-atoti, etc. (Jacob is also abbreviated to the nickname Cob(b) in English.)
Now, Egyptian hieroglyphics and inscriptions are not written in single straight lines but in 2 dimensional patterns, and so they might possibly be read any number of possible ways and the believed "rules" of direction/order of reading them might not necessarily always be correctly ascribed by modern scholars (as seen by that many Egyptian names and words have had many different spellings since Champollion's decipherment). Kh-u-f-u/Kh-u-f-wey/H-wj=f-w(j) is variously written/drawn as either: in inscription photograph it is bird top left, disk (kh) top right, snake (f) in middle, bird bottom, all pointing right, which Bey draws with disk on left and bird on right and all pointing left, while in Clayton's drawing it is disk top left, snake bottom left and bottom middle, bird top middle, bird right all pointing left.
Also, some nations read left to right and some right to left, some front to back and some back to front. The sun is also said to have reversed directions of travel across the sky a few times (Herodotus), and some Egyptian king lists have reversals of order of kings in parts of them. There are also other possible evidences of early Egyptian (& Biblical) names read with different order of elements eg Potiphera and Ra-hotep? (Also maybe compare hwhy/yhwh / yhhw/whhy in Cornuke's Lawz inscription?) So it cant be asserted that scholars are definitely right about the "rules" of what direction/way hieroglyps are read.
One other possibility is that since Joseph's name is sometimes considered to be Jehoseph with name Jhvh at the start, and Judah's name has also been linked with Jhvh too, then Jacob's name could possibly be Ja-cob which could match Khnum-khufu? Though "the mighty one of Jacob" in Genesis 49 may match Khnum-khufu (esp since El may mean "strong").

Jacob was in Egypt for 17 years. Khufu's highest recorded reign year in contemporary sources is 17 years (year taken verbatim not as 2 year 'cattle counts').
Although Cheops/Khufu's reign length ranges in ancient sources from
63 yrs (Manetho) to
50 yrs (Herodotus) to
"46 yrs" (one modern orthodox cattle-count theory?) to
34 yrs (Great Pyramid inscription taken as biennial cattle-count) to
26/27 yrs (Dakhla inscription taken as bienniel cattle-count) to
24/23 yrs (Turin King List) to
20 yrs (building pyr Herodotus) to
17 yrs (Great Pyramid inscription taken verbatim) to
14 yrs (Dakhla inscription taken verbatim) to
10 yrs (building pyr ramp Herodotus),
only the 2 verbatim inscriptions are reliable contemporary records, while the others are less reliable much later sources or modern theories. The 17 years one is confirmed by the biblical match.
(Also, Jacob lived 147 years which might posisbly match the 150 years in Herodotus?)

Jacob had 2 or 3 or 4 wives: 2 wives (Leah & Rachel) & 2 concubines (Bilhah & Zilpah), but Rachel died before Jacob went to Egypt.
Khufu had 2 or 3 or 4 wives. Clayton lists 2 named and 2 unknown wives/queens of Khufu, (and his genealogical tree shows 2 or 4 spouses.) There are 3 satellite pyramids beside the great pyramid which some say are of Khufu's wives/queens.

Jacob had 4 + 2 (+ 2) & 2/3/4 (+ 2) sons = 12/14 sons.
From various sources Khufu seems to have had between 6 to 9 to 15 sons. Clayton lists 6 sons, and his genealogical tree shows 5 of them. A couple/few other sources list some other "sons" of the king.
(Here is a list of all the seeming sons of Khufu that i found in a few different sources: Djedefre, Kawab, Khafre, Djedefhor, Banefre, Khufukaef/Khufukhaf, Hemiunu/Hemon? Bauefre? Minkhaf, Horbaef, Babaef, Nefermaat? Khnumbaef, Wepemnefert? Kamaha?)
There is also a similar number of tombs/mastabas on 1 or 2 sides of the great pyramid?

Jacob's couch in Genesis 49 might match the gold/bronze metalic colour wooden bed found in the "tomb of Hetephires" at Giza?

#. Goshen match in Egypt:

Goshen has been supposed to match Fakus/Phacussa in the north-eastern Nile delta of Lower Egypt near the suez canal, but this theory doesn't really have that much good evidences, and it conflicts with some biblical details of Genesis and Exodus. Goshen was the "best of the land".

The meaning of the name Goshen/Gosen/Goson / Gesem (Septuagint) / Kessan (Artapanus) is unknown, but it has been proposed to possibly mean "drawing near" or "place of light/plenty/comfort", (and it is also called the "best of the land" and land of Raameses in Genesis).
Khufu is connected with Giza/Gizeh/Er-ges-her which name means "beside the high". The shepherd Philitis "lover of righteousness" dwelt at Giza (Herodotus).
Josephus said that the exodus started from Latopolis (Sokhem) near Sakkara/Memphis/Giza/Cairo.

Quick reference table of 4th dynasty matches with story of Joseph/Jacob:
Sneferu = Pharaoh? (or Zaphenath?)
Bent pyramid = 7 yrs plenty & 7 yrs famine?
Khufu/Cheops "protect" (17 yrs) = Jacob "protect" (17 yrs)
2/3/4 wives of Khufu = 2/3/4 wives of Jacob?
Shepherd Philitis "lover of righteousness" = shepherd Jacob?
Djedef-re('s starry sky) = Joseph? (or Judah? or Reu-ben?)
Sphinx/Shesep-ankh = head of Joseph/Zaphenath-paneah &/or lion of Judah (Gen 49)?
Khafre/Chephren = Ephraim?
Menkaure/Mycerinus = Manasseh? (or Machir? or Benjamin?)
Shepseskaf = Zaphenath? Zelophehad? ...?
Djedefptah = Joseph/Zaphenath? Judah? Potiphar?
Pyramids = eternal mountains (Gen 49)?
Giza/Gizeh/Er-gesher = Goshen?



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 13-Nov-2018 at 01:16
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Continuing on Joseph in Egypt story details matches.

#. Pharaoh match:

The king of Egypt is called pharoah in a number of bible stories including those of Abraham, Joseph, and Moses.

The name/word Pharaoh/Faraun (Farouk?) is supposed to come from Pr/Pr'o/Pr'3/Perao/Peraa/Paruw'ar or Aaperti "(the) (great) house", and it is said that it was not known in Egyptian kings records until time of 12th dyn or Tuthmose 3 or Akhenaten or Merneptah or Siamun, which would mean either that Joseph was not before 12th dynasty, or that the bible's usage is an anachronism (since Moses supposed to have written the 5 books of the Torah/Pentateuch/Law, and Moses was in the 12th dynasty), or that the bible books were not written until late times (Documentary Hypothesis), or that the books were edited later or the parts are later insertions. There is also/alternatively a possibility that the name/word pharaoh was used in earlier dynasties. Herodotus has a king 'Pheros' in 4th dynasty. Pirua of Peruvian is also similar? Waddell also claimed Sumerian inscriptions or Indus inscriptions (read as Sumerian) or early Egyptian inscriptions (read as Sumerian) contain a word that matches Pharaoh?

There maybe some other earlier candidates possibilities for the origin of the name Pharaoh including: Parinbara ("predynastic"), Peribsen or Perenmaat, Phra/Ra/Re or Afra (whose reign started in Joseph's times); Sneferu (3rd-4th dyn, Joseph's time), or Ufura/Reufu (4th dyn, Jacob's time), or Chephren/Khafre (4th dyn, matching Ephraim), or Nebma(at)re/Labari (12th dyn, time of Moses), or Aaron (maybe Hor of the 13th dyn, or Heron), or Naphuriya/Huriya (18th dyn, David's time), or Hophra/Vaphres/Apries (26th dyn), or Pharos.

(The god-king Ra's reign began in the 2nd (Raneb) or 3rd (Rahotep) or 4th (Redjedef, Sa-re) or 5th dynasty (sun kings). Pharaoh "great house" could match Khafre/Chephren/Ephraim who was called "greater" in Genesis. "Great house" could be connected with "great pyramid" of Ufure?)

In our 3rd-4th dynasty placement of Joseph it is possible that Sneferu matches Pharaoh in name and nature. Sneferu's name has been variously spelt Snfrfrw / Snprfw/Snprvw/Snprby/Snprvu/ Snpfv / Snprf/Snfrw//Snprb/Snprv/Snfrv/Snfr(w) / Snpw, or Snaphru/Snef(e)ru, or Sen-nefer. He heads the 4th dynasty just before Khufu/Jacob and his sons.
Some critics might say that sources say Sneferu and Hetephires were Khufu's parents and so Jacob cant match Khufu, however they admit in some articles that Sneferu & wife are only "most possibly" Khufu's father and mother, and he could have adopted him.

The Pharoah who had dreams in Genesis is similar to Saurid/Surid/Soris/Seris/Ser who had dreams in Masoudi, and both these seem to match Djoser/Zoser who is connected with a 7 yrs drought in Sahel/Philae inscription, and whose step pyramid complex is right beside his "successor" Sekhemhet's buried pyramid complex, looking like as if a vizier's complex beside his Pharaoh's. Surid's "flood and fire" might match the 7 yrs plenty and famine? Surid 300 yrs before flood may match Josph's Pharaoh 400 or "215" yrs before the exodus? (430 is 2 x 215; 300 is 2 x the 150 yrs in Herodotus.) Surid/Soris in Manetho's king lists is also supposed to match Sneferu.

#. Ramses matches:

The place/person name Raamses is found in both the story of Joseph and of Moses. It was a place name but some also think it was a king/pharaoh name. The place was also identified as being in the same place as Goshen in Genesis, and the site is paired with Pithom in Exodus. One of the reasons the orthodox consensus believes Moses and exodus was not before the 19th dynasty is because that was supposedly the first occurence of the name as a king name and a city name. Their city Pi-ramses is supposed to be the same as Avaris and Tanis/Zoan/San. However there are several criticisms for this contention of theirs including:
- They dont also say that Joseph cant be before the 19th dynasty.
- The name in the Moses story could be an anachronism.
- The name is not necessarily a king name only a place name. (They give several different possible names for the king of Exodus including Pharaoh, Ramses, Thom/Timaeus/Tutimaeus, an Assyrian, Palmanothes, Chenephres, Concharis, Amenophis/Merneptah. They dont also say the king in Joseph's story is also called Ramses.)
- The biblical name is spelt slightly different.
- The use could be due to the meaning "sun + born/son".
- The biblical name is just Raamses not Pi-ramses(-...).
- The god Ra/Re started his reign in the 2nd or 3rd or 4th or 5th dynasty.
- There are other Ramses-like names in earlier dynasties in some sources as seen in the following list:

Mares "gift of the sun" of Eratosthenes king list?
Mesocris?
Rayosis of Eratosthenes?
Pyramid (4th dyn)?
Name Ramses found in 4th dyn site (ref Hoeh)?
Some scholars think Rhampsinitis was Redjedef (4th dyn).
Sa-re/Se-ra "son of sun" (4th dyn) means similar to what Ramses does.
Moscheres of Eratosthenes (4-6 dyn)?
Rimush ("6th dyn")
"Ra founded Thebes" ("founded Piramses according to same plan")
temple of (city of) sun/Re, son of Ra (Sesostris 1, 12th dyn)
Thyosimares "mighty is the sun" of Eratostenes?
Ranmaat/Lamares (12th dyn)?
Moeris/Moarith?
Amenemes (12th dyn) since Ra & Amun were identified with each other.
Armiyses (before/13th dyn, book of Sothis)?
Rameses/Ramesomenes/Ramesseseos/Ramessameno/Ramesse (before/13th dyn, book of Sothis)?
imyremeshaw (13th dyn)
…mosre (13th dyn)
(Se-ra-)Ah-mose (17th dyn)?
Mesphres (18th)?
Ramose
Pa-ra-mess(o)u/Ramses 1 (19 dyn)
(Pi-)Ramses "Sesostris" (19th dyn)
Ramses (20th dyn).
Remus (753 bc)
"Her-mes"?

We see in the list above that there are some Ramses-like names in the 3rd-4th dynasty period in which we place Joseph.

#. Joseph / Zaphenath-Paneah matches:

In our 2nd/3rd-4th/5th dynasty Joseph placement theory we have good candidates for the name and nature of Joseph / Zaphenath-Paneh / "Peteseph", "the all-comely".

Joseph/Yahuwseph/Joses "he will add, adding, increaser" or "helped" (related to Asaph "collector, gatherer") :
Zosus
Tosorthros
Djoser/Zoser (7 years drought, 3rd dyn)
Imhotep
Djoserty-ankh?
Sepa (3rd- 4th dyn)?
Sofe/Souphis?
Djedef-re?
Djedi (110 yrs old, at Dahshur)?
Userkaf?

Zaphenath(-Paneah) / (Psothom-)Phanech / Thafneos:
Kha-sekhemwy? *
Djoserty-ankh?
Huny/Huy?
Sneferu "the beneficent king"
Saophis Comastes?
Zazamankh?
Djedefre-ankh?
Djedi (110 yrs old, at Dahshur)?
Sphinx/Sheshep-ankh "eternal living image" / Hu?
Shepseskaf?

The meaning of the name Zaphenath-paneah is not known for sure and there have been many Egyptian or Hebrew suggested meanings including "revealer of secrets", "cover-uncover", "(the) god speaks, [and] he lives", "governor of the district of (the (place of) life/living one", "saviour/preserver of the age/world", "healer of the world", "the one who furnishes the sustenance of the land", "the powerful governor of Egypt", "a fruitful vine", "the one who furnishes the nourishment of life", "my provision is god", "the nourisher of the 2 lands", "sustainer of life", "bread giver of life", "stored beautiful rest", "to hide, store up", "the one who has godlike wisdom", or "he/she who is called"?

(Zephon/Saphon means "north" in Hebrew.)

Joseph is also called "the all comely" in some Jewish/Christian texts and it is possible that this might be a meaning of Zaphenath-paneah?

Compare that the meaning of Sekhemhet has suggested to be either "powerful body", "might/powerful (of/in the) pervading/spread/through-out", "might/powerful (of/in the) body", or "grey haired ruler over all", "Grey haired Son of a foreigner ruling overall"?

Sekhem can mean "power, might", or "grey haired", or "to prevail", or "shut place, imprison", or "secret shrine", or, "vital force", "scepter", "to have power", "(noun) a power", "the perogative of divine beings and not used by humans", or, "most holy place".

Sekhemhet has alot of seeming matches with Joseph's story including:
- Joseph's name Zaphenath could match Sekhemhet, though one critic has cliamed it is supposedly phonetically not possible.
- Sekhemhet is also called Djoserty-ankh which is similar to the names Joseph and Paneah (considered by some to be pi-ankh).
- The Bible says Pharaoh put a gold chain on neck of vizier Zaphenath (Joseph). 3rd-4th dynasty: There was a gold necklace found in the Sekhemhet complex which may match the very gold chain of the Genesis story.
- Unas famine scenes beside Sekhemhet's complex.
- Sekhemhet is the supposed "successor" of Djoser, and his complex is beside Djoser's and looks as if a vizier's beside his king's? (Djoser is connected with a 7 years drought/famine story.)
- Wyatt showed Imhotep has connections with Joseph. Imhotep graffiti is found in/on Sekhemhet's complex.
- Potiphera in Joseph story might be Ra-hotep, and this is comparable with Hetep-ren in Sekhemhet complex inscription?

Regarding the claim that Zaphenath cant match Sekhemhet phonetically, consider these contradictory scholars suggested phonetic/syllabic Egyptian/hieroglyphic versions of Zaphenath-paneah:
Gd-dn(-iw.f-'nh) / Gd-ipt-nt-iw.f-'nh / Gd-p3-ntr-iw.f-'nh, or
Za-p-u-nt-p-a-anch / Za-pa-v-nt-pa-aa-ankh, Z/s-p-n(-t(_p-'-n-h) or S-h-p-y-n-t-p-c-n-h, or Se(d)-p-nute(r)-ef-onh, or D'fnt / T'f(n(t)) / T'd/T'f(a) + (m)nt/p(-)nutr / T'f-nt-pankh, or Djed-pa-netjer-iw.f-ankh / D(d)-p'-nt(r)-iw.f-'nh / Dje(d)pa_nute(r)_(e)f-'ankh  / D(ja)d(u)-naf_((')i)p(i)-(a)n(k)h / Dd-n.f_'ip'ankh' / D(ja)d(u)-naf / Djad_tu-naf / Djat-naf / Djed((u)-)en-ef, Dafenenas / Dafelelas?

The biblical name is variously spelt Zaphenenath / Zap(h)(e)nat(h)-pa(a)nea(k)h / Zaf'en-ath_pan-ay'ah / Sapenat_pa'(e)ne(c)ha / Tsophnath-Pa'neach / Tsaph(e)nat(h)_pa'ne(a)ch(a) / Tafneos / Zoph-ent-pa-ankh / Pso(n)thom-phan(t)ech.

Sekhemhet is variously spelt Sekhem(k)het/Sekhemk(h)et / Se(s)chemchet / "Szehemhet/Sejemjet".

P(h) and (k)h sometimes interchange in some languages, as also do m and n. (Compare Khent/Shent/Fent in Egyptian?) H is sometimes omitted.

Djedefre could match either Joseph or Judah, but he seems more likely to match Joseph than Judah. Djedefre comes between Khufu/Jacob and Khafre/Ephraim. The name of Djedefre's pyramid "Djedefre's starry sky" recalls Joseph's dreams. Djedefre's pyramid was not at Giza, which is abit like Joseph not living at Goshen with Jacob.

The face of the Sphinx has been suggested to be either that of Djedefre (Joseph/Zaphenath?) or Khafre (Ephraim).
The word Sphinx or Sheshep-ankh could match Zaphenath-paneah (or piankh). In Genesis 49 the head of Joseph and/or the crouching lion of Judah could match the Sphinx (which is generally thought to be a lion though a few suggest it is a dog). (The lion of Judah "shall go up", and looking from the front of the Sphinx we see Khafre's pyramid which was named "the great" rising above in the background. Also, the "sceptre shall not depart from the lion of Judah's feet", matching the Sphinx paws?) Thus we maybe have at Giza a match for the 4 members of the special family section of Jacob/Khufu, Joseph/Djedefre/Sphinx, Ephraim/Khafre and Manasseh/Menakure.

Joseph lived a 110 yrs. A 110 yrs is a "perfect old age" in Egyptian. There were centenarians and 110 year olders in the 3rd to 4th/5th dynasties period including 110 yr older Djedi. Pepi of the 6th dynasty may have reigned 64 or 94 years. "106 yrs temples never opened" (plus Mycerinus' 6 more years makes a 112) may also match 110 yrs? (100 store rooms of Sekhemhet complex?)
Djedi dwelt at Dahshur, and we showed that the Bent Pyramid there may represent the 7 yrs plenty and 7 yrs famine, and the area is connected with St Joseph and "Joseph's Canal". In the tales of the magicians Djedi rides in a vehicle similar to Joseph riding in chariot in Genesis. We showed that Djedefre may match Joseph, and Djedi could be a shorter nickname of Djedefre or Djoserty?

Hoeh pointed out that Saophis Comastes "the trafficker or money getter" of the 4th dynasty in one king list recalls Joseph who (stored up grain, and) took all the Egyptian peoples money and cattle and land and selves/bodies.

Some critics have said that Joseph cant be the likes of Sekhemhet, and/or Jacob cant be Khufu because Joseph/Jacob were not said to be pharaohs/kings like Sekhemhet & Khufu are supposed to be. However it is not so definitely concrete that Sekhemhet & Khufu were really pharaohs/kings, or that Joseph/Jacob were not rulers of a sort.
Joseph was given pharaoh's signet ring; he was 2nd only to pharaoh; he rode in the 2nd chariot; he was vizier; he was adon over the land; they called 'abrech' "bend the knee" before him; he married daughter of high priest; he had a silver cup; his brothers said to Jacob that he ruled over Egypt; he saved Egypt and world from the famine; Jacob's prophecy mentioned the "head of Joseph"; his brothers were afraid of him after Jacob/Israel died; he was buried in a "coffin"; a new king that "knew not Joseph" arose later on in Exodus 1. Plus he was ruler of the Hebrews/Israelites, like his brothers bowing to him in his dreams. Joseph's brothers were made "rulers over pharaohs cattle", and in Egyptian humans were cattle of the sun god Ra.
In the story of Bata and Anpu('s wife) which is similar to Joseph and Potiphar's wife Bata becomes ruler/king/pharaoh at the end.
Sekhemhet is not in the king lists though scholars identify him with another name (Teti/Tyreis) in some lists.
Also the (later) Egyptian king lists may not necessarily be strictly truthfully correct in who were kings/pharaohs. The king lists might have included very high viziers etc. The Horus names of the 1st to 3rd dynasties could be names of lords? Pharaoh is supposed to mean "great house" and so dynasties might be like family/household relatives?
The 4th dynasty "pyramid builders" were said to be hated by the Egyptians according to some sources like Herodotus. Philitis at Giza is only described as a shepherd dwelling there who the pyrmaids were named after.

#. Chariots/horses matches:

One of the few or half dozen reasons for the "conventional" "consensus" late dating Joseph and Moses to the Hyksos and 19th dynasties respectively is because both stories mentione chariots and/or horses, and it is said that chariots/horses are not known in Egypt until the Hyksos "introducing them" and later dynasties. Some have also said that the exodus chariots wheels in the gulf of Aqaba match 18th dynasty wheels. However there are possible counter evidences and arguments for this point including:
- Rohl said there was a recent find of evidence of horses/cariots a little before the Hyksos?
- The chariots were all lost in the Red Sea in Exodus. ("... and all the other chariots of Egypt" in Exodus 14.)
- The chariots parts have been found in the gulf of Aqaba near Nuweiba, and these remains might help date which dynasty.
- Herodotus said the chariots/horses were lost in reign of Sesostris (12th dynasty) near in time to Moeris 900 yrs before Amasis.
- Some have said that "chariots" could mean the sedan chairs that Egyptian pharaohs were carried in (and Sumerian gods journeyed in).
- Ramps in buildings such as Sekhemhet's complex and Deir el-Bahri are similar to modern ramps for wheel chairs and cars etc.
- Wheel like pictures in some earlier dynasties such as the 11th dynasty which look similar to the wheels found in Aqaba.
- In the tales of the magicians Djedi of the 4th dynasty travelled in a vehicle that sounds similar to Joseph's "chariot".
- Genesis 41 (& 46) only mentions 2 chariots, though chapter 50 mentions "chariots and horsemen". Exodus 14 mentions "600 chosen chariots and all the other chariots of Egypt". (Philistines had 30000 chariots in King Saul's time, so we seem to see an increase from Joseph to Saul. Horses were also not favoured in bible until Solomon's times.)
- The Hyksos chariots more probably match the 900 chariots (of iron) of Jabin in Joshua & Judges (especially since Sisera seemingly may match Seqenenre).
- Ashkenaz in Genesis 10 is connected with horsemen.

#. Potiphar and/or Potiphera matches:

Some sources suppose that the two persons Potiphar captain of the guard and Potiphera(h)/Petephres priest of On in the story of Joseph in Genesis are the same person. Potiphar &/or Potiphera have been supposed by scholars to be a latish Egyptian name Padipara or Putipera "gift of the risen one" or "the gift of the sun god Ra, he who (the sun god) Ra has given, (this one) whom (the sun-god) Ra gives" or "belonging to the sun". Some alternative theories have suggested Ptahwer (12th dyn) as a candidate match. Both these names matches are not necessarily very strong or convincing, and they pretty much only have a candidate names match and not any strong persons details match(es). In our own 2nd/3rd to 4th/5th dynasties Joseph placement we have some better candidates for matching the names and persons of Potiphar and Potiphera:

Potiphar &/or Potiphera candidates:
- Pa-rin-bara in "predynastic" inscription (ref Waddell).
- Hotepdif (2nd dyn priest) &/or H(o)udjefa/Huzefa (2nd/3rd dyn).
- Hotepher-nebty (woman/queen of Djoser's reign, 3rd dyn)
- Imhotep/I-em-hetep/Iu-em-hept "he/the-one (who) comes in peace" or "the voice (or mouth) of Im" (son of Ptah, 3rd dyn).
- Htp-ren[...]_nebty (in Sekhemhet complex, 3rd dyn).
- Ra-ho'tep/Ra-het'ep/Rahotpu (or Hotep-ra/Hetepra) "Ra + satisfied/peace(ful)/content/rest/ease" high priest of Heliopolis and/or leader of the warriors of the monarch (3rd dyn).
- Hetepheres "wife of pharaoh/Sneferu/Djedefre" (4th dyn).
- Djedefre or Djedefptah (4th dyn).
- Rauser (priest, father of 5th dyn kings)
- Ptahhotep (5th dyn).

Pa-rin-bara is similar to the orthodox Padipara (d & r interchange in/between some languages like Hebrew). "Predynastic" remains may actually have been contemporary with or overlapped with the 2nd to 3rd dynasties. Store rooms around predynastic and archaic or early dynastic tombs might have been part of Joseph's storehouses.

There are possible evidences that Joseph was also in the 2nd dynasty in the earlier half of his story. Khasekhemwy might match Joseph/Zaphenath, and Hotepdif might be a possible candidate for Potiphar?

Imhotep has been supposed to be the same person as Joseph/Zaphenath by Mohler and Wyatt. Wyatt does show quite a few convincing similarities or correspondences between the two. Imhotep's list of title in one inscription are somewhat similar to Joseph's. Imhotep graffiti is found in/on the Sekhemhet complex, and we showed that Sekhemhet may well match Joseph/Zaphenath. It is my opinion that Imhotep is maybe the best candidate match for Potiphar? Imhotep was architect, vizier/chancellor, maker of stone vessels, etc. Imhotep's wife Rashaa could be Potiphar's wife (see below)?

Hetep-ren[...]_nebty is fond in Sekhemhet complex inscriptions, and we have shown that Sakhemhet has many matches with Joseph, and his name may match with the Zaphenath name of Joseph. Hetepren is considered to be either a "queen" of Sekhemhet, or the nebty name of Sekhemhet. Nebty can mean "2 ladies".

Rahotep was high priest of Heliopolis and/or leader of the warriors of the monarch which is similar to either/both Potiphera(h)/Petephres priest of On and/or Potiphar captain of the guard in the story of Joseph. It is my opinion that Rahotep is the best candidate match for Potiphera. A later Rahotep is also called Parahotep. Phra/Ra/Re is the Egyptian "sun god".

Critics have scathingly asserted that Rahotep can not be read Hotepra because of modern Egyptologists established rules of Egyptian grammar etc. However this is highly disputable as there are plenty of good possible evidences that show we could be right and they could be wrong. Some older Egyptologists books do have the version Hetepre/Hotepra. There are Egyptian names with Ra/Re and/or hotep/hetep written at either or both ends, and with the 2 elements either/both ways around in relation to each other.

hotep (or djedef or sekhem or nefer etc) last:
Imhotep
Achethotep
Rahotep
Ptahhotep
Mentuhotep
Khnumhotep
Shesmuhotep
Sobekhotep
Aahhotep
Amenhotep
Neferhotep

Hotep first:
Hotepsekhemwy
Hotepdif
Htp-ren[...]_nebty
Hetepheres/Hetephires
[nebty] hotpere (name of Khafre/Chephren)?
Hotepibre (Shepseskare)
Hotep/ra/Hetepre (Budge, Petrie)

Hotep/hetep first & last:
Rahotep / Hotepra/Hetepre

(One source suggests that there was also a pun of Hetep & Ptah?)

Phra/Ra/Re (or Horus or Sobek or Amun or Ptah or Khnum etc) last:
Shemre
Potiphera
Djedefre
Khafre
Menkaure
Sare/Sera
Sahure
Hotepra/Hetepre (Budge & Petrie)

Ra/Re first:
Rahotep
Redjedef
Rauser
Ramses

Ra/Re first &/or last:
Ra-amon &/or Amun-ra,
Raneb / Nebra
Re-hesy &/or Hesy-ra/Hesira,
Reufu / Ufura.
Redjedef / Djedefre.
Rakhaf/Ra-khu.f/Ra-xaw.f &/or Khaf-re/Xaw.f-Ra/Chephren
Raneferef & Neferefre
Ra-n-mat / Nema(at)re/Labari
Re-seqenen &/or Seqenen-re,

Ra first, hotep 2nd/last:
Rahotep

Ra 2nd/last, hotep first:
Hotepra/Hetepre

Ra & hotep both ways around:
Rahotep / Hotepre/Hetepre.

Some Hebrew names also have elements two ways around eg: Joel & Elijah; Jehohanan & Hananiah; Jonathan & Nathanias; Nathanael & Elnathan; Elhanan & Hananeel; Baalhanan & Hanibal; Jehoahaz & Ahaziah; Jehozadak & Zedekiah; Eleazar & Azareel/Azriel; Elishama & Samuel.
Classical also has examples like Theodora/Diodorus & Dorothea.

See also further discussion about direction of writing & reading in Egyptian hieroglyphs and Hebrew and other languages in what we have already written in our discussion about our matching the two names Khufu and Jacob.

Cases of p- prefix:
Phra/Ra/Re
Parahotep/Rahotep
Phamenoph/Amenophis
Paramessu/Ramses.

The priest Rauser was father of Rudidet who was the mother of the 5th dynasty kings. Some of the 5th dynasty kings look like they might be Joseph's or Jacob's sons or grandsons.

What of Potiphar's wife, and Asenath daughter of Potiphera? We also have good candidate matches for them too:

As(e)nat(h)/Acenath/Osnath/Snat/"Ius-en-at" candidates:
Ash_Nin-i /lady_Ash / Ha ("predynastic" inscripton, Waddell)?
Nemathap (wife of Khasekhemwy, 2nd dyn)
Satet in the Sahel/Philae inscription about the 7 yrs famine of Djoser
Achethotep (son of Rahotep)?
Sen-nebty or Djeseretnebti or Hetep-ren (in Sekhemhet complex)?
Nswt-h/Swtenh ("Huny")?
"Queen's Pyramid" (Bent Pyramid satellite)?
Arsinoe nearby the Bent Pyramid (3rd-4th dyn)?
Hetepheres (wife of Djedefre)
Rhodopis/Rud-didet (daughter of priest Rauser, and mother of 5th dyn kings)?
Nitocris of the 6th dynasty (claimed to be buried in the 4th dynasty pyramid of Menkaure).

Sen-nebty or Djeseretnebti or Hetep-ren a names found in inscriptions in Sekhemhet's complex, and we have showed that Sekhemhet has many matches with Joseph. Sen-nebty is similar to Asenath. Hetep-ren is similar to Potiphar's wife or Potiphera's daughter.

"Queen's Pyramid" satellite pyramid of the Bent Pyramid satellite and Arsinoe nearby the Bent Pyramid (3rd-4th dyn) are possible candidates for Asenath because the bent pyramid may represent the 7 years plenty and 7 years famine (as we have already shown).

Hetepheres is a wife of Djedefre, and we showed that Djedefre has good possible matches with Joseph. The name Hetepheres is similar to Potiphar's wife or Potiphera's daughter.

Rhodopis/Rud-didet was daughter of priest Rauser, and mother of 5th dyn kings. We have found that the 5th dynasty kings might match with some of Joseph's or Jacob's sons or grandsons.

Potiphar's wife "Zuleika/Zelicah" candidates:
Rashaa (Imhotep's wife)
Nefert/Nofret "beautiful, good" (Rahotep's wife)
Uba-aner's wife (tales of the magicians, 4th dyn)
Dalukah (legendary 3rd/4th dyn queen)

The story of Uba-aner's wife in the Tales of the Magicians is pretty similar to the biblical story of Joseph and Potiphar's wife.

We will not do all the points in the Joseph matches list near the start of the first post, but we will do 2 further major points in coventional views (Semites/Hebrews in Egypt, and Dates of Joseph & Dynasty), then we hill move on to one of the other matches like say the Moses and exodus match in Egyptian history.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 14-Nov-2018 at 04:16
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# Hebrews/Semites in Egypt/Palestine:

One of the reasons for the orthodox arbitrary placement of Joseph in the Hyksos period and Moses in the 19th dynasty is that they seem to believe that there were no major periods of Semites in Egypt before the Hyksos, and that the Amarna letters supposedly suggest Palestine was still Canaanite with no evidence of Hebrews/Israelites, and that the Merneptah "Israel" stele is the earliest mention of Israel(ites) settled in Canaan/Palestine. We will now show that there are evidences for Hebrews in Egypt/Palestine before the Hyksos / Amarna letters / Merneptah stele, and we will also give some criticisms of their own 3 evidences.

List of evidences of Hebrews/Israelites in Egypt &/or Canaan/Palestine before (and during & after) the Hyksos & the Merneptah Stele:
- Shemre (1st/2nd dyn)?
- The Set(h) race in the 2nd dynasty.
- Some sources suggest Imhotep is implied to have been a foreigner (3rd dyn).
- Set(h) the first of the 3 Hermes seems to match the Old Kingdom. (3 Hermes roughly match 3 Kingdoms of Egypt, and match the Jewish 3 reincarnations Seth, Moses, Samuel. Shem is sometimes also called Seth.)
- The shepherd Philitis "lover of righteousness" at Giza (4th dyn). (Philitis is also maybe similar to Philistine/Palestine which means "immigrants/strangers".) We have shown Khufu surely matches Jacob.
- Egyptians hated the 4th dynasty "pyramid builders" similar to Antisemitism. Some sources also compare/connect/correspond the 4th dynasty with the Hyksos.
- "Giza aligned with Bethlehem" (Lemesurier)?
- My father once said he saw/heard a documentary or news item about Aramaic writing found in the great pyramid?
- The bible implies that some of Ephraim's/Manasseh's descendants were in Canaan (between Joseph/4th dyn and Moses/12th dyn).
- Akkadians in Mesopotamia were Semitic ("6th dyn").
- A name "Herusha" in Egyptian records might possibly be Hebrew or Hebron or Jebus/Jerusalem? (The Bible also says Hebron and Zoan built at same time, while Tanis/San is as old as the Old Kingdom in Egyptian history.)
- Asiatics in Egypt in 1st Intermediate Period (ref Clayton etc).
- increase in Levantine names in 12th dyn.
- Hebrew slaves in pectoral of Mereret (12th dyn).
- "Multinational" population of Lahun/Kahun (12th dyn)?
- Babies in coffins under houses at [Kahun/Lahun?]
(- Lahun/Kahun was suddenly abandoned.)
- Asher, Menti, Zabulanu, Jerusalem, Shechem mentioned in Middle Kingdom execration texts?
- The haq of Abesha/Shut and his companions were Asiatics and have been compared with Jacob's family entering Egypt (12th dyn).
- The legend of Horus (Behdeti of Edfu) versus the "adversaries of Re(-Harakhty)" in the year 363/364 in the reign of Re-Harakhty, &/or, Shou battles companions/children of Apophis (El-Arish inscription), which has matches with the exodus. (Also compare "Osiris came from Nubia in the 365th year of his reign accompanied by Horus, to chase Set out of Egypt".)
- The "Semitic" Hyksos were in both Egypt and Canaan and Baghdad.
- Sinaiatic "Canaanite" script of ca "1500" bc.
- The rebel Mesh and Habiru in the Amarna letters can match Hebrews/Israelites of David's time (18th dyn). Jerusalem is also mentiond in the letters, and in the bible it was not called that until the time of David &/or Solomon?
- Punt (18th dyn)?
- The name Jacob-el in reigns of Tuthmosis & Ramses 2/3.
- The name Israel [in Canaan] could be mentioned on Berlin statue pedistal relief 21687 dated to about time of Amenhotep 2 (or Ramses 2).
- "Jhw/Yahu (in the land) of the Shoshu" / "Schasu of Yahweh" in list/ring in/at/from the temple of Soleb (Amenhotep 3).
- "the Ark of the Amu". (Amu means "gentiles" in Egyptian. Sayce corresponded the yellow Namu with Hebrews.)
- Merneptah "Israel" Stele mention of Israel (19th dyn).
- Sinai under Edom in 19th dyn (McEvedy).
- Osarsiph/Arisu was a "Kharu" (19-20th dyn).
- Fankhu/Fenech (22nd dyn).
- Elephantine Jewish temple in Egypt (26th/27th dyn).
- Leontopolis Jewish temple in Egypt (33rd dyn).
- Septuagint (33rd dyn).

There are also a number of other evidences of early and long contacts between Egyptian and Hebrew cultures including:
- The Hamitic and Semitic languages are considered to belong to same the same amito-Semitic or Afroasiatic or Erythraic or Adamic family.
- Egyptians and Hebrews both had circumcision.
- Some have thought that the Jewish Afikoman could mean "Hapi is found". (The golden calf has also said to possibly be the Egyptian bull god Apis/Hapi.)
- Both have a decimal numbers systems.

The Hyksos cant and dont match Hebrews for a number of reasons including:
Hyksos were chased out, Hebrews were let go relutantly. Hebrews were slaves, Hyksos were overlords/rulers/kings. The Hebrews were in Egypt 430 years not "215" years, while the Hyksos are agreed to have been in Egypt about 200 years.
Sources seem to imply that the Hyksos found Avaris abandoned from previous people there.
One source says an ancient source said the Hebrews were the captive shepherds not the king shepherds. Compare the captive shepherds and the shepherd Philitis of the 4th dyn.
Josephus said Hyksos were afraid of Assyrians, which seems to indicate they were a later date than supposed (Assyrians are also ascribed too early dates too though).
Two Jacob names in the Hyksos period seems to indicate that Jacob must be some time before them.
The Hyksos period roughly matches the Judges period in the bible, and they seemingly may be connected with either the Anakim or Edomite kigs or Amalekites or Midianites/Kenites or Canaanites (Jobab/Jabin) between 'Exodus' and 'Samuel'.
Sais 800(0) years before Amassis 2 in the Atlantis Account might be comparable to Moeris (12th dyn) 900 years before Amasis, and Sais might match Salitis, which makes Moeris about same date as Moses in bible, and makes the Hyksos king Salitis a little after.
The town Sharuhen that the Hyksos fortified after being kicked out of Egypt might be connected with Shechem in Judges (seem our post on that), or Jericho, or Petra/Seir, or Sharon, or a Sharuhen mentioned in Joshua

The 19th dynasty Habiru cant match the Hebrews for a number of reasons including:
Experts claim the 18th dyn Habiru cant match Hebrews because the Habiru are supposedly not an ethnic group, yet they say the 19th dyn Habiru can match Hebrews?
The Habiru of 19th dyn include 2 different skin colours.
The Habiru of the 19th dynasty were more like Aryan knights than Hebrew slaves.
Habiru built with stone, Hebrews made bricks.
Habiru were also in 18th dynasty Amarna letters, so if the Habiru are Hebrews then Hebrews were in Canaan in 18th dyn before the 19th dyn.

Some reasons why the Habiru/Prs in the Amarna letters can match Hebrews of David's time include:
- Amelut sagaz Mesh "people of the rebel Mesh" could be people of Moses.
- Habiru could match Hebrew/Heber/Eber-nari.
- Habiru "bandits" are similar to Abel and to Hebrew shepherds/bedouins (from wilderness), and the Israelites were only semi-urban in the time of the Judges between Joshua and David.
- Mention of non-Hebrew king of Jerusalem can match any time down to just before David took Jerusalem. (Joshua, Caleb and David fought kigs of Jerusalem.)
- "i and Abdu-Heba (king of Jerusalem) alone are left to fight the leader of the Habiru .... But behold they have been fighting against me...." This can match time just before David taking Jerusalem.
- Other scholars have matched Prs of a later dynasty with Hebrews too.
- A number of names/persons in the Amarna letters are similar to persons of time of Saul/David/Solomon, eg: .

The Merneptah Stele can match other later biblical periods and cant match the Hebrews between Moses and Saul. We cant list all the reasons here and now in this piece, we will just mention a few:
Merneptah Stele is too soon after the supposed 19th dynasty exodus in reign of Ramses 2 or Merneptah.
Rohl also pointed out that the Merneptah stele seemingly may have horses/chariots in it, which may mean not before Solomon's time.
Some scholars have disputed that the name in the Merneptah stele may not be "Israel".

We have one more point to do on the dates of Joseph and matching dynasty. Then we can move on to Moses and the exodus in Egyptian history. We will also try to answer or discuss any comments any one posts. For this post we lastly just need to also post this following reference table which we forgot to post in the first post:

Timeline table of our Egyptian & Biblical tentative matches:
1st (or 2nd) dyn -- Abraham
2nd/3rd-4th/5th dyn -- Joseph/Jacob
(11th dyn -- Elim)
(6th &) 12th-13th dyn -- Moses/exodus
15th-16th dyn Hyksos -- Judges/Edom/Amalek
17th dyn -- Sisera
18th dyn Amarna/heretic kings -- David
18th-19th dyn -- Solomon
(18th or) 19th dyn -- Shishak/Susakim
(19th or) 20th dyn -- Zerah?
20th dyn Sea Peoples -- Jehoshaphat?
21st dyn -- Phoenicians
20th or 21st or 22nd or 25th dyn -- So
22nd dyn -- Phoenicians, Assyrians?
24th (Olympiad)
25th dyn -- Assyrians, Tirhakah?
26th dyn -- Neco, Hophra
27th & 31st dyn -- Persians
32nd dyn -- Alexander
33rd dyn Ptolemies -- Seleucids, Maccabees
Romans.

Table of conventional Egyptian & Biblical supposed matche:
(3rd/4th dyn -- Byblos)
(5th dyn Sahure in Palestine)
(6th dyn -- Ebla)
No biblical before 11th dyn.
11th/12th dyn -- Patriarchs, Jerusalem?
(13th dyn -- Yantin -- Old Babylonian)
15th/16th dyn Hyksos -- Joseph/Jacob
18th dyn Amarna -- Palestine/Jerusalem Canaanite not Israelite
19th dyn -- Exodus
19th dyn -- Israel
20th dyn -- Philistines, Saul
21st dyn -- David
22nd dyn -- Shishak
22nd dyn -- Zerah
25th dyn -- Assyrians, So, Tirhakah
26th dyn -- Neco, Hophra, Carchemish

Table of Rohl's chronology:
11th-12th dyn -- Joseph
12th-13th -- Moses
15th-16th -- Joshua vs Anakim
18th dyn Amarna -- Saul, David
19th dyn -- Shishak
3rd Intermediate Period problematic.

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  Quote Atlantean35 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2018 at 21:51
The information or data here could take years to process. It has such a massive scope. What does stand out though is Jacob's couch. Where does it say he had a couch? Another thing that stands out is the 'habiru'. I think that's excellent and can really lead somewhere.

Just some preliminary thoughts/comments on this... you mentioned the 7 year famine is common to Hebrew and Sumerian stories. For some reason, its my understanding that such weather patterns were more typical in Sub-saharan Africa and almost unheard of in the Fertile crescent. In Subsaharan, the rain patterns were inconsistent, where it would stop raining for long stretches of time. This promoted a nomadic, impermanent cultural mentality in Africa, which basically ruled out the use of writing and discouraged permanent settlements. In the end its possible we may have to conclude that the Hebrew histories are an amalgamation of the East African (highlands) "Atlantean" founders and "Ethiopian" slave perspectives. A mixing of identities, which took place in Egypt.

It's also interesting that before Egypt became Egypt, it was probably once the underworld that is commonly found in the myths and legends of many of the oldest civilizations. I just found out that the Sumerian underworld was associated with 'desert' and 'river'. Sumeria is closer to the source, in that it was probably the first civilization founded by the Atlanteans (who originated from East Africa). Egypt before farming and irrigation was originally just a dangerous place filled with cannibals that the Atlanteans would have tried to stay away from, that later got morphed into the place the dead go to and lost its ties to the actual region. Perhaps a case of "you go there, you die" being reversed in meaning to "you die, you go there". Such grammatical errors or "drifts" that change the meaning are understandable.


Edited by Atlantean35 - 14-Nov-2018 at 22:25
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2018 at 04:36

Thank-you Atlantean i will read and reply after i have posted this last finished bit on the Joseph and dynasty dates issue.

# True-dates match:

Joseph's biblical-based ascribed date has ranged in various sources from:
1980 bc, to 1876 bc, to 1749/1727-1658 bc (Jerome), to 1706 bc (Usher, Oxford), to 1657/1635 bc (NWT), to 1647/1621 (Compton)? to 900 bc (PSBA)?
The bible seems to confirm a date of about 1800s bc (430 + 480 yrs before Solomon of ca 900s bc)

Zoser &/or the 3rd dynasties date has ranged from 4945-4731 bc (Petrie), to 3900 (Bey), to 3766/3712/3700 bc (Sesortosis, Bey), to Sekhemhet complex carbon dates 600 yrs older than Egyptology date, to 2980-2900 (Breasted, Berlin), to 2686-2613 (Shaw, Clayton), to time of Joseph (Mohler, Wyatt, Walker, Hoeh, me).
The current "conventional consensus" is Shaw's.

Khufu &/or the 4th dynasty &/or the Great Pyramid &/or Sphinx's date has ranged in various sources from "150,000" yrs ago (some believe), to "73,300" yrs ago (Balkhi), to "10,000 yrs bc" (Pyrmamidology), to Age of Leo/Cancer (Hancock, Tomas), to 7000-5000 bc (Schoch), to "4731" (Petrie), to "3733" (Bey), to 2900-2750 (Breasted, Berlin), to "The boat of Khufu dates 200 years before Egyptological date of pyramids built", to "2690", to 27th cent bc / 2613-2498/2494 (Shaw, Clayton), to "Kate Spence's astronomical work says Khufu's pyramid should be  dated 50 years the other way from the historical  date ... in other words 250 years lower than the radiocarbon date", to 2144/2140 (astronomical?), to "1726-1703/1699/1663" (Hoeh), to "838" bc (Newton), [to "not before 800 ad" (Fomenko)?]
The current "conventional consensus" is Shaw's.

(Surid of 3rd-4th dynasty was "300 years before the Flood" in Masudi.)

"Conventional" sources say that early dynasties dates may still be out by up to a 300-350 yrs (refs include Clayton, wiki), and that the tendency has been to lower the dates. A number of decades ago the Old Kingdom dynasties dates were suddenly lowered by a few centuries or "400 years" from 3400 to 3100/3000 because they found/decided/agreed that some dynasties were contemporary or overlapped rather than all consecutive (one source says that these two long and short dates are still current in the conventional chronology). (There are long/high/maximum and short/low/minimum chronologies differing by 1 or 3 or 4 centuries even within the conventional chronologies of both Mesopotamia and Egypt. Previously the 2 chronologies of Petrie and Breasted differed by 1460 years, like the 400 years difference between the 2 chronologies of Breasted and Shaw in the last century.) Some recent orthodox sources say that the "consenus fluctuates by as much as a few centuries", and places "where Egyptological consensus has only been possible within a range of about three or four centuries", and "this shows how fluid Egyptian chronology can be". Mesopotamian chronology is also called a "floating chronology" or "relative chronology".

(There is also a strange pattern in Egyptology of 3000 yrs, 300 kings, 30 dynasties, 3 kingdoms, with dates that may be out by 300 or 30 or 3 years.)

Because the "expert" "conventional" "peer-reviewed" "consensus" dates for the 3rd &/or 4th dynasties supposedly dont match Joseph's biblical date, critics claim that Joseph and Jacob can not have been contemporary with the 3rd-4th dynasty. In the conventional chronology Joseph is supposed to match the Hyksos period of roughly same or close supposed date. The chronology of Rohl and some others places Joseph in the 12th dynasty because the 12th dynasty is supposedly the same date as Joseph. However, the truth is that the conventional ascribed dates of the 3rd & 4th dynasties are only theory and are not definite proven concrete fact. There are little actual evidences for the dynasties dates and they cant not prove that their ascribed dates are right. Modern Egyptological ascribed dates of the dynasties are pretty much solely based only on the 2 Siriadic/Sothaic dates for the 12th and 18th dynasties, and supposedly supported by a not massive number of other dating methods information. All the few dating methods they use all problems with them:

Carbon dating is unreliable and carbon dates sometimes even conflict with the orthodox Egyptological "archaeological" dates, eg material in Sekhemhet's complex yielded a carbon date 600 yrs older than the present conventional date (and the latter is about 600 yrs older than his true date contemporary with Joseph); Thera's carbon date conflicts with the archaeological date of the dynasty. "As in Egypt and the eastern Mediterranean, radiocarbon dates run one or two centuries earlier than the dates proposed by archaeologists."

Thera's date is uncertain and its carbon date conflicts with the "archaeological" date by a century or more. Some scholars have suggested that Thera might be connected with the exodus plagues, and we are pretty sure that the exodus was in the (6th and) 12th dynasty.

The Apis bulls dating only covers the 18th to 33rd dynasties (though the Serapeum is also connected with the 3rd dynasty), and there is a gap from the 20th to 22nd dynasties. I have also seen 2 different lifespans of the Apis bull(s) in some different sources.

Astronomical alignments dating is not necessarily reliable because some ancient sources testify that there were changes in the earth's position and/or in celestial bodies movements, eg:
Joshua's long day;
Herodotus said Egyptians said the sun changed direction of rising and setting 2 x 2 times in their history;
"Orion traveling in reverse direction" in an Egyptian painting;
sundial shadow went back 10 steps in Hezekiah's reign.
Some supposed alignments in buildings like the Great Pyramid might only be wrong theory.

Egyptian dating was originally only based on Siriadic/Sothaic dating, and though they claim that they have moved away from this they have nevertheless pretty much retained the same dates. Siriadic/Sothaic dating is admitted by some orthodox sources to be "problematic". There is also no known Siriadic/Sothaic date for the Old Kingdom, though there is recent claim that they might have found one in the first dynasty. Some sources have even given a different length of the Siriadic/Sothaic cycle.

The Venus tablets in Mesopotamian are also not reliable as shown by that various scholars have suggested their date to be either ... or 1694/1638 or 1574/1542 or 1400s bc or 8th cent bc. Although orthodox sources make out that their dating of the tablets information is reliable, some admit that the textual information involved is not certain as to the correct meaning or interpretation. It is also said that the Venus cycle could be either 64 yrs or 56 yrs or 8 yrs.

It is said that ancient near east chronology was originally based on the Egyptian chronology. In more recent times Egyptian chronology is now somewhat based on Assyrian king lists dating. We have demonstrated in other articles elsewhere that the Assyrian king list is certainly not reliable.

The supposed synchronism of the 6th dynasty with the Akkadian dynasty via Ebla is said to not necessarily be entirely certain because it could be earlier than the Akkad dynasty &/or the 6th dynasty. Also the Akkadian dynasties' own ascribed date is also only theory, and it is surely not right for various reasons. There is another synchronism of Lagash  with the 4th-6th dynasties period, which if it is Lagash 2 would mean Akkadian was before the synchronism, though if it is Lagash 1 then Akkadian would be after it.

Recent day sources say the Egyptian dynastic dating is primarily based on regnal years. However, adding-up totals of many kings regnal years and dynasties totals is unreliable because it depends on each and all the reigns lengths and dynasties totals being right, and them all being consecutive without any contemporary or overlapping dynasties or coregencies, and there being no insertions or omissions, plus the length of the year also has to be right. The 1st intermediate period is a lacuna of uncertain length in Egyptian history; the 3rd intermediate period also has some uncertainties (as agreed by a number of scholars including P James, Rohl, myself). In ancient Egyptian sources some kings have different reign lengths in different sources. We have already shown how Khufu's reign ranges from 14 yrs to 63 yrs in different sources, which is quite a difference, and Khafre's reign also has a similar range. Pepi's reign/life length is not certain whether 64 yrs to 94 yrs. The El-Arish inscription implies "Geb" and "Shu" were co-rulers. The dozen or so Egyptian king lists have differing numbers of kings for same streches of dynasties. Conventional chronology also wrongly follows the Turin king list which has the largest number of kings, but the 300 kings in this king list surely were not all consecutive.

Den Seals: 6 kings of 1st dyn (to 6th?)
Palermo Stone: # kings 00/0/1st to 5th dyn, 2 sides, 7 fragments.
Gaza: 24 gods, 6 kings 2nd to 5th/6th dyn, 28 cities, 3 x 4 groups of 8 gods, 4/12/27/43 columns, 5 chapters.
South Saqqara: 5 kings of (all preceeding to) 6th dyn.
Karnak: 39/61 kings 1st/3rd to 18th dyn, 30 ks of 13th dyn, 3 rows/sections.
Abydos: 65/72/76 kings 1st to 12th/19th dyn, in 2/3 rows of 38 kings, omits FIP/SIP & Amarna heretic kings.
Sakkara: 47/58 kings 1st to 19th dyn, MK in "reverse" order, omits SIP/Hyksos & Amarna herectic kings.
Turin Papyrus: over 300 kings 1st to 19th dyn, in 11 columns, in 160 fragments.
Herodotus: 3/41/300/330/341 kings 1st to 28th dyn, (1)1340 yrs, 18 Ethiopians, 2/4 x sun reversed.
Manetho: # kings from gods/1st to 30/31/32/33 dyns.
Eratosthenes: 38 kings 1st to 6th to ? dyn.
Book of Sothis: 25/29/86 kings, 4 of Tanis.
Syncellus: 8 demigods / 217 years, 15 gens / 443 yrs, 16-19 dyns / 835 yrs, interregnum / 178 yrs + 20-31 dyns / 868 yrs.

Use of the "cattle count (census)" "year" of 2 years length is also problematic because they sometimes dont know whether the year is verbatim or cattle count. They also say research has shown that the census was sometimes taken in conecutive years, or after 2 or more years had passed.

The few vertical chronological sources that the conventional chronology has are unreliable, and they also ignore or dismiss some other conflicting vertical chronological sources (like Herodotus, Bible, etc).
Herodotus said that Moeris of the 12th dynasty was only 900 years before Amasis 2, making Moeris ca 1400s bc and same time as Moses.
Josephus said Menes was 1300/1399 yrs before Shishak (ca 900s), and Herodotus said Menes was (1)1340 yrs before Seti (19th dyn), which makes Menes not before 2300s bc, and makes Seti and Shishak about the same time (which is also confirmed by Rohl and myself).
Tacitus said there were only 4 phoenixes in ancient Egyptian history, and he has 500 yrs for the lifespan of a phoenix.
However they just dimiss these sources as being "not an authority", and/or "unreliable", etc.

The few claimed supposed horizontal "synchronisms" between Egyptian and Biblical that the conventional chronology has are actually wrong or weak, and they have often disregarded or dismissed other shown starker synchronisms between biblical accounts and other dynasties.
The level at Jericho that they nominated to be contemporary with Joshua they actually admit that there is little or no evidences for Joshua then.
Often people have said that they have found "no trace of Joseph and/or Moses in Egyptian history" in the dynasties that the consenus claim are chronologically contemporary.
The conventional chronology has Moses at "1300" or "1200s" bc, which conflicts with the bible having Moses 480 yrs before Solomon ("900s" bc).
They also have 215 not 430 years for Hebrews/Israelites sojourn/bondage in Egypt, but various Bibical and Egyptian evidences suggest that it was 430 not 215 (as we will show in the Moses posts).

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2018 at 04:51

Originally posted by Atlantean35


What does stand out though is Jacob's couch. Where does it say he had a couch?


The couch reference is in Genesis 47:31 & 48:2 & 49:33 (in at least one translation anyway, i havent checked all others). (An earlier couch/bed before Jacob was in Egypt was one defiled by Reuben.)

Originally posted by Atlantean35


Just some preliminary thoughts/comments on this... you mentioned the 7 year famine is common to Hebrew and Sumerian stories. ....


I have compiled a list of seeming versions of Joseph's famine in a number of cultures around the world including Sumerian, Egyptian, Ethiopian, Hebrew, Peruvian, etc. (I'll have to check/edit it first if need to post it.)

Originally posted by Atlantean35


It's also interesting that before Egypt became Egypt, it was probably once the underworld that is commonly found in the myths and legends of many of the oldest civilizations. I just found out that the Sumerian underworld was associated with 'desert' and 'river'.


There is maybe a similarity between Mizraim and Mictlan (Aztec) and Meslam(taea) (Sumerian) underworlds. Sitchin also placed Apsu and apparently Enki's/Ea's realm in Africa. Ham matches Amun whose name means "hidden". Perhaps there might be a similarity with the land of Nod? It would be interesting to compile a list of underworlds.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 15-Nov-2018 at 05:39
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2018 at 12:28

Having done Joseph in Egyptian history we will now attempt to do Moses and the Exodus in Egyptian history. This one is maybe not quite so well written and so strong matches but it seems pretty good in some parts.

Moses and the exodus have been placed in various ancient Egyptian dynasties ranging from the 4th dynasty to the 24th dynasty! List of Moses placements:
never (myth)
4th dyn (Hemon) (a lay amateur based on Koran)
5th dyn (Unas) (Hoeh)
6th dyn (Pepi 1 & 2) (me, Courville)
12th dyn (Mes, Amenemhet 4) (Down, Rohl, me)
13th dyn (Mermesha, Sobekhotep, Dudimose/Tutimaeus) (Hoeh, Rohl, Velikovsky)
15th/16th dyn (Jannes)
17th dyn (Seqenenre)
18th dyn (prince Tuthmosis, Akhenaten, Horus, Mosakayahu) (Manetho, Freud, Boysen, Wyatt)
19th dyn (Ramses 2, Merneptah)
19th-20th dyn (Osarsiph/Arisu) (Manetho)
24th dyn (Bocchoris) (Lysimachus/Tacitus).
not in Egypt but in Crete (a Classical source)
not in Egypt but in Arabia (Salibi)
not in Egypt but in America (Fitzgerald-Lee).

We can see that there are 4 or 5 main periods for Moses' placement(s) : 4-6th dyns, 12-13th dyns, 15th dyn, 15/16/17th - 20th dyns, 24th dyn.
Conventional chronology places Moses in the 19th dyn, which rules out later dynasties unless Egyptian dynasties dates are too short/low, which we and they agree is unlikely. So we have 3 or 4 main Moses placement periods left.

To confirm what Egyptian dynasty Moses can or cant match we must find which one has the best match for all the details in the biblical account.

List of details of Exodus story that must match the dynasty he was in:
Rivalries for power/within the kingdom during the 400 yrs (Josephus).
Kohath, Amran.
Hebrews/Semites (greatly multiplied) in Egypt
name/person Pharaoh/Thom/Ramses
new king who knew not Joseph
United kingdom of all Egypt (bible), or 2 or more kings (other sources)
Pharaoh feared Hebrews would join enemies of Egypt
Hebrew slaves
2 treasure cities Pithom & Ramses
bricks
slaying of babies
midwives Shiphrah & Puah
Jochabed
name/person Moses / "Tisithen"
princess/daughter of pharaoh
date
40/80/120 yrs
Moses slays Egyptian, and Moses flees.
Aaron
Ethiopian wife "Tharvis" or "Adonaih" (married later on)
Jannes & Jambres
10/12 plagues
Goshen
passover
slaying of "firstborn"
took bones of Joseph
Hebrews asked gifts of Egyptians
430 yrs between Joseph and the exodus
600,000 or 600 heads
not by way of Philistines but by wilderness of Red Sea,
Succoth,
Etham on edge of wilderness
Pihahiroth (between Migdol) & Baalzephon
pillar of cloud & pillar of fire
chariots/horse
Red Sea passage & drowning
Moses mateh/rod/staff
pharaoh drowned in Red sea.
480 yrs between Moses and Solomon
(Shur)
(Elim)
(Sinai/Horeb.)
Anayer (in Ethiopian versions)
(Og of Bashan.)

We will now discuss some of these matches in our and orthodox and others Moses placement theories.

#. Moses name/person match:

The conventional chronology places Moses in the 19th dynasty, but people often say that "no trace of Joseph and Moses has been found in Egypt" in the period that they favour.

The name Moses / Moshe/Moseh / Musa / Moyses/Messene/"Mneves" has been variously suggested to be from either Hebrew mashah "to draw out" / meshiti(t)hu "drew him out" (Bible), or Egyptian ms/mes/msy/mosu "son, child of, created him", or m(o)u/mem "water" (Philo) + eses/uses "saved" (Josephus) or su/siph/se "child" (Massey), or mw-se "water" or "seed" and "pond, expanse of water" with sense of "child of the Nile" (Yahuda), or Sumerian/Assyrian mus(h) "serpent", or Mau & Shu (Massey).

It seems to have been considered by the conventional Egyptian chronologists that the name Moses doesn't occur until the (17th &) 18th & 19th (& 20th) dynasties. However, these latish names are almost all in combination with other elements (Ra, Ah, Tut, Amen) and are not solo Moses names, which would seem to suggest Moses was earlier? There are also Moses-like names found in earlier dynasties:

List of Moses/Uses names or elements in dynasties before, during and after the conventional assumed 19th dynasty placement:
Mesochris (2nd/3rd dyn)
Moscheres (4th dyn)
name Ramses found in 4th dyn site
Rimush/Uru-Mush/Mush (Akkad dyn, "6th dyn")
Mesehti (11th dyn)
vizier Mentuhotep (12th dyn)?
Wehem-meswet (12th dyn)
Netcher mesut (12th dyn)
erased sons names (12th dyn inscription)?
Shesmuhotep?
User (12th dyn)
Mes glyph in pectoral of Sit-hathor-yunet (12th dyn)
Moeris/Moarith (12th dyn)
Ammenemes [4?] (12th dyn)
...mosre (13th dyn)
Imyremeshaw/Mermeshoi/Mermesha(u) (13th dyn)
Dudimose/...mose/i-m-s-s (13th dyn)
(Se-ra-)Ah-mose (17th dyn)?
Kamose (17th dyn)
Ahmose/Amasis 1 (18th dyn)
Mesphres/Misaphres (18th dyn)?
Amessis/Armessis (18th dyn)
Tuthmosis (18th dyn)
Amelut sagaz Mesh "people of the rebel Mesh" (18th dyn)
Ramose/Armessis (18th dyn)
Khamus (18th dyn)
Meri-mes/Merymose (18th dyn)
Mosakayahu (18th dyn?)
(Para-)Messu/Messuy/Msy/Mose/Mosu (19th dyn)
Ramses (19th dyn)
(Ptah)messu/Messuy/Msy/Mose/Mosu (19th dyn)
Amenmesses (19th dyn)
Minmose/Mnw-ms/Amsu-mose (19th dyn)
Arisu/Osarsiph called "Moses" (18th or 19-20th dyn)
Ramses 3 (20th dyn)
T-en-moshe (20th dyn)
Masaherta (21st dyn)?
Amenhirpamesha (21st dyn).
Meshwesh (22nd dyn)
Amasis 2 (26th dyn)
 "Her-mes"?
Musa (Muslim invader of Maghreb/Spain).

(We have elsewhere shown that Ahmose 1 might possibly match Abimelech in 'Judges'?)

The 19th-20th dynasty Osarsiph "Moses" of Manetho might be either (Para-)Messu/Ramses or Ptahmessu or Amenmesses of the 19th dyn. The bible doesn't mention any name Osarsiph or Arisu (though the later is similar to Aaron). We have shown elsewhere that Arisu seems to match around about the time of Asa in Kings/Chronicles.

We place the biblical Moses in the (6th &) 12th dynasty because we saw that these dynasties have the only best quality and quantity matches for the biblical Moses story details. Our favoured main candidates for matching the name and/or person of Moses himself are: Pepi 1 & 2 (6th dyn); Mes (12th dyn); "he is not my son" (12th dyn); "Moeris" (12th dyn); Amenemhet 4 (12th dyn); Mer-mesha (13th dyn); the rebel Mesh (18th dyn).

It is perfectly possible for Moses to be both 6th & 12th dynasty because the Old Kingdom 4th-8th Memphite dynasties could overlap with (the FIP 9th-10th Heracleopolitan dynasties, and with) the Middle Kingdom 11th-13th Theban dynasties. The Sakkara kinglist has Pepi (6th dyn) next to last king of 12th dynasty. The Kanak kinglist has 6th dyn between 11th & 12th. Ethiopian king list has Pepi/Piori next to or only 1/2/3 kings away from Amenemhet. 13th dyn is also associated with the name Neferkare (which was the other main name of Pepi 2).

Moses could quite possibly match the blue kneeling figure in the pectoral of princess Sit-hathor-yunet. Reasons why we think/feel so include:
- Moses was found by a princess or daughter of pharaoh. The pectoral belonged to a princess.
- The figure is like a child, and is coloured blue like water. (The object on his arm also might possibly be the ark that baby Moses was found in?)
- There are wavy water lines along the bottom.
- The figure is surrounded by a prominent Mes glyph. Scholars agree that Moses is probably from the Egyptian word ms/mes/mosu "son". "Moses wrote his name Ms" (Keller).
- The blue kneeling figure is enclosed by reed plants on both sides. (The glyph for Sw is a reed.)
- Egyptologists claim that the blue figure is the god Heh, but our evidences show that it is more likely Moses wile there is not as much or good evidence for it just being Heh. But we agree that the figure is also like other Heh, though there are some differences, and it may be that the artist intentionally cleverly combined the two themes. Heh was a frog-headed god which could match Moses drawn from the river. (Heh also resembles the last part of Yhwh.)
- Fits with lots of other evidences that Moses was in 12th dynasty.
(See picture here http://2rbetterthan1.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/moses.jpg .)

Egyptologists have asserted that the blue figure is just Heh with a tadpole symbol for "tens of thousands of years", and they believe that the meaning is "wishing long life to the king" Senusert 2 whose name is in the top half. But why would this be something that the princess would want/like/love/cherish/wear?

(Traditionally the princess who found and adopted the baby Moses is variously named either: Bithia(h) (Jewish/Midrash), Thematis/Thermuthis/Tharmuth (Josephus), Merrhis (Artapanus/Livingstone), or Asiya (Koran). The name Merrhis is similar to the name of queen Mereret of the 12th dynasty.)

We found that Moses has a number of similarities with Pepi 1 and Pepi 2 of the 6th dynasty.
(Moses could be both Pepi 2 as child and Pepi 1 as adult because for the statue of Pepi 1 and a smaller child it has been suggested by some that the smaller child is a younger Pepi 1, and this younger Pepi 1 might rather be Pepi 2. Pepi 1 has mostly adult depictions, while Pepi 2 has mostly young child depictions.)

Moses' mother Jochebed could match Pepi 2's mother Ankhesenpepi.
Jochabed was aunt or cousin of Amram; Ankhesenpepi was aunt of Merenre (her nephew).
Jochabed was wife of Amran/Amram, and also of Elitzaphon Ben Parnach; Ankhesenpepi was wife of Mennefer Meryre Pepi 1 & of Merenre Nemtyemsaf.
Statue of Jochabed with child Pepi siting on her lap is similar to ones of Mary and baby Jesus.
Moses son of Jochabed was said to be a very good looking baby (in Acts); Ankhesenpepi in statue is very good looking. Pepi 1 also seems to have a fairly good body/build in his statue?
(Jochebed was maybe daughter of Levi or Merari or Gershom or unnamed brother of Levi; Ankhesenpepi 4 was daughter of Merenre.)

The baby Moses was drawn form ark in river, and he has been compared by some scholars with the Nile river god and/or king Hapi/Apis or Nilus. He was adopted by pharaoh's daughter and brought up in pharaoh's household/palace.
Pepi "came to throne at 6 yrs old", and his name might be linked with Nile river god Hapi/Apis (or Hapu or Papis?) (Compare Pepyankh, Hapiankh, Bebiankh?) Some scholars have thought that the Jewish Afikoman could mean "Hapi is found". Hapi's connection with "conceal, hidden, cover" recalls Moses being hidden in ark in river among bulrushes. The hieroglyphs that make-up the name Pepi/Papi are 2 reeds.
Pepi resembles Khered "younger, child".
Pepi may also be connected with Apepi/Apophis. The El-Arish inscription's story of Egyptian king versus followers of Apophis is similar to the exodus story (see much fuller details in Velikovsky's book 'Ages in/of Chaos'). An Apepi is attested as king's son in 14th dynasty.

Moses name may be from Egyptian mes "son".
Pepi 1 is connected with word ms(t) "birth" in an inscription.

Moses is connected with periods of 40 & 80 & 120 years.
Pepi 2 reigned from childhood for either (24 or 31 or) 62/64 (or 47) or 90/94 yrs, and was a centenarian (living for 6 y.o. + 94 yrs = 100 yrs?)
(Note that Levi is also connected with an age of 64 yrs old, and Melol/Adikam with 94 yrs in the book of Jashar.)
Pepi 1 reigned either 15 yrs ("should have been", Sinai? SSS), 18/19 yrs (Hammamat, Sinai graffito, SSS), 25th yr (highest year/count, Hatnub, SSS), 30/31yrs (Hammamat, Hatnub, SSS?), 35(Erato)? 36 yrs (taken biennial, Sinai graffito), 44 yrs (TKL),  48-49/50 yrs (SSS).

(For other 6th-12th/13th dynasty matches with 40/80/120 yrs also compare these:
40 years to graduate from Waset/Septer (A3).year 39 (Lahun/Kahun, 12th dyn)?
Amenemhet 3 reigned 45 yrs?
"About 40 years after the reign of the General [Mermeshoi], Egypt collapsed"?
The contendings/struggles of Horus and Set/Typhon lasted 80 yrs.
"Around 80 years after the reign of Amenemhat IV, the administration [of the Egyptian state] seems to have completely collapsed".
Apepi reinged 40 yrs in 15th dyn.)

Moses had a mateh "staff, rod" (or "boat, ship") in the bible. Pepi 1 has a prominent staff in his statue.

Pepi 2's name Nefer-ka-re might link with the Chenephres name of pharaoh of exodus in one early source?

Moses lead exodus out of Egypt after 10 plagues devastated Egypt.
"After the death of Neferkare [Pepy 2] Egyptian history is involved in darkness and confusion...."
The Ipuwer Papyrus of the "FIP or SIP" tells a story about events that some have said seemingly may match the Exodus story of the plagues etc, and this papyrus has been dated by some to the period immediately after the dynasty of Pepi (FIP).

Moses was born and grew up in Egypt, but he was not buried in Egypt.
"Pepi II's mummy has never been found".
"No mummy Pepi 2 ever found. canopic chest - empty."

Amenemhet 4 of the 12th dynasty has been a candidate for matching Moses of some researchers and of myself. This person has a number of possible matches with Moses including:

- "Amenemhat IV was the son of a woman named Hetepi. Hetepi's only known attestation is an inscription on the wall of the temple of Renenutet at Medinet Madi where she is given the title of "King's Mother" but not those of "King's Wife", "King's Daughter" or "King's Sister". Consequently, her relation to Amenemhat III is unknown and she may have been non-royal."
This may match Moses' mother/nurse Jochebed.

- "Amenemhat IV may have been the son, grandson or step-son of his predecessor, the powerful Amenemhat III." "The relation of Amenemhat IV to Amenemhat III is similarly uncertain; the former could have been the son or grandson of the latter." "Father uncertain, possibly Amenemhet 3 (perhaps as adoptive father)". "Ryholt proposes that Amenemhat IV was adopted by Amenemhat III...."
This might match Moses adopted by princess or daughter of pharaoh/king, and match Moses brought up in pharaoh's household as a son but not a real son of pharaoh.

- The sphinx statue of Amenemhet looks like he could be an Asiatic foreigner.

- "Around 80 years after the reign of Amenemhat IV, the administration [of the Egyptian state] seems to have completely collapsed".
The is maybe similar to the first or second/last 80 years of Moses life (years 1-80 or 40-120)?

- "The tomb of Amenemhat IV has not been identified." Moses was not buried in Egypt.

Herodotus placed Moeris of the 12th dynasty 900 years before Amasis, which is comparable to Moses 480 years before Solomon ("900s" bc). He also says the chariots/horses were lost in reign of his immediate successor Sesostris. The name and meaning of Moeris is maybe similar to the name and nature of Moses. Though we are only suggesting a confounded memory tradition, because the king Moeris is not actually the same person as Moses.

The 13th dynasty general Mer-mesha has similarities with Moses who in some traditions was a commander of the army in war with Ethiopians.

Some critics have said Moses was not a king/pharaoh and so can't match those candidates of ours who were supposdly kings/pharaohs. However, Moses was adopted by a princess or daughter of the king/pharaoh, and was brought up in the house/palace of pharaoh, and he "went out". Some traditions also claim he was a commander of the Egyptian army in war with Ethiopia. He also was a ruler of the Hebrews, and the Israelites said "who made you a ruler and judge over us?"
The Egyptian king lists also may not be entirely truthfully honest or acurate about who were or were not kings/pharaohs/rulers of Egyptians, and some of the more minor dynasties may have included names of high officials (viziers, etc), and reuplications of same rulers under different titles or in different years or events. There are some names in some dynasties that are same or similar to officials in nearby dynasties (eg 11th dyn king Mentuhotep & 12th dyn vizier Mentuhotep). The king lists might also have included rulers of the Hebrews in Egypt.

The 'Amelut sagaz Mesh' "people of the rebel Mesh" or Habiru in the Amarna letters (18th dyn) might be people of the rebel Moses or Hebrews? (We dont mean that Moses was during Amarna period but rather that they still remembered Moses at this time a few hundred years later. The Amarna letters seem to match the time of David before he took Jerusalem.)

The 12th dynasty vizier Mentuhotep also has some interesting close similarities with Moses as a legislator and prophet.

The 12th dynasty story of Sinuhe fleeing is also similar to story of Moses fleeing, and the name Sinuhe similar to Sinai?

Aaron might perhaps match someone like Merenre (6th dyn), or Hor-ur-re (12th dyn), and/or Hor (13th dyn). (Also compare that the god Set(h) is also named or identified with the god Heron.)

Regarding Moses' later Ethiopian wife "Tharvis/Adonaih" compare that the 12th dynasty pharaoh "Senusret captures Ethiopian women" in a campaign?



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 16-Nov-2018 at 12:36
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2018 at 14:25
This has been covered in other threads.   We've already discussed some of this in them, A_R.     Forumers beware!!!!!
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2018 at 03:47
I don't remember disussing much of the things in these posts with you or anyone on here or elsewhere. Yes you discussed some similar things but didnt prove or disprove any. Yes i have mentioned some of these things in other threads/topics but i cant just ignore all previous and conjure up totally different new things that are right. Besides previous attempts people claimed they were not written readibly enough and this is better written. If you want to discuss any points then you are free to do so but it is unfair tactics to just make such mere words statement making out i am some sort of evil predator ("beware"). I dont see any conventional find of Joseph or Moses in Egypt in the times they claim. If i am not allowed to remention some things in forum then i will post somewhere else. People have a right to know the truth, or alternative evidences. If they'd stop darn forcing fluoridation on us i would not even be wasting much time posting on web/net anyway.

Only by discussion can we improve or correct our theories. Many points in these posts i have included were thanks to some discussions on other forums showing me what critical points need to be addressed.

#. The Pharaoh of Exodus, and also the cities Pithom & Ramses:

Traditionally the name of the pharaoh of the exodus is variously given as either: Pharaoh (Bible), or Thom (based on Pithom), or Ramses (based on the place name in the bible), or an "Assyrian" (based on an interpretation of a verse in a prophet's book in the bible), or Melol/Adikam (Jashar), or Chenephres (Artapanus), or Palmanothes (Artapanus), or Phritiphantes (Chaeremon), or Amenophis/Merneptah (based on Manetho and other), or Akhencres (ecclesiastical writers), or Concharis, or Isis (Tacitus, Cheremon), or Apis son of Pharonaeus (Polemo/Eusebius), or Sesostris (footnote in Josephus), or Bocchoris (Lysimachus/Tacitus), or Shu & Geb (El-Arish, Velikovsky).

Herodotus said that the chariots/horses of Egypt were lost in reign of Sesostris (12th dyn), though he does not definitely mention the biblical exodus. Some sources make Sesostris to be Ramses 2 of the 19th dynasty, but Hodotus has him next to the 12th dynasty king Moeris who was "900 years" before Amasis II.
Senusert 3 in the 12th dynasty does seem a good match for one of the two main pharaohs in exodus.

The king of Egypt is called "Pharoah" in a number of bible stories including those of Abraham, Joseph, and Moses.
We have already discussed the name Pharaoh in our previous Joseph post. The name/word Pharaoh is said to be known in Egyptian kings records from time of either the 12th dyn or Tuthmose 3 or Akhenaten or Merneptah or Siamun.
Herodotus has a king Pheros in the 12th dynasty and/or before the 4th dynasty.
(Some sources suggested that pharaoh was known from earliest dynasties, or that it was a name of the 1st ruler of Egypt? Josephus had Pharaohs [from Menes?] until Solomon/Shishak, similar to Newton had gods until Merneptah, then kings after that.)

As we already discussed in the Joseph posts, the place/person name Raamses is found in both the story of Joseph and of Moses. Some scholars make Ramses both a city name and a king's name, though in the bible it is not necessarily definitely a king name but only a place name.

In our Joseph post we listed examples of Ramses-like names before the 19th dynasty contrary to the conventional opinion that Ramses doesn't appear until then. We place Moses in the 6th & 12th-13th dynasty, and from our list we have these Ramses-like names in the 6th to 12th/13th dynasties period:

Rimush (Akkadian, "6th dyn")
Rameri/Meryre (6th dyn)
"Ra founded Thebes" ("founded Piramses according to same plan")
temple of (city of) sun/Re, son of Ra (Sesostris 1, 12th dyn)
Thyosimares "mighty is the sun" of Eratostenes?
Ranmaat/Lamares (12th dyn)?
Armiyses (before/13th dyn, book of Sothis)?
Rameses/Ramesomenes/Ramesseseos/Ramessameno/Ramesse (before/13th dyn, book of Sothis)?
imyremeshaw (13th dyn)
…mosre (13th dyn)

The place Ramses in Genesis & Exodus may be different places because the one in Genesis is a land, while the other is a treasure-city built by the king/pharaoh in Exodus 1.

If the king in exodus was also named Ramses, then the king could possibly be either the son of Ra Sesostris 1, or Thyosimares, or Ranmaat/Nema(at)re/Labari of the 12th dynasty, while the treasure city might match either the temple of (city of) sun/Re of Sesostris 1, or Lahun and/or the Labyrinth? (L & r interchange within &/or between some languages including Egyptian.) Kahun the pyramid town of the Lahun pyramid of Sesostris 2 was "abandoned suddenly".

The (arei-)miskenoth "treasure cities" (Pithom & Ramses) of pharaoh in 'Exodus' could match either the tekhenen of ..., and/or with the "huge quantities of ... stores ... found in Sesostris' funerary temple", and/or the Labyrinth which had "many rooms" or "3000 apartments, half of them underground".

(The bricks and straw mentioned in 'Exodus' also match our 6th-12th dynasty Moses placement well too. Brick buildings are especially prominent in the 1st Intermediate period and the Middle Kingdom. Excellent 12th dynasty examples are seen at Lahun, Buhen, and Dahshur.)

We have already showed in the Joseph post reasons why the city Rameses of Exodus cant be Pi-ramses of the 19th dynasty as conventional chronology has contended. One of the reasons was that the bible doesn't have any "Pi-" only "Raamses". (Incidentally an Egyptologist said to me that "p- was not used in the Old Kingdom and Middle Kingdom", which may confirm Ramses was early, and that Pithom may not be Pi-tum?)

Some sources suggest that Ramses 2 of the 19th dynasty was also called "Sesostris", which may imply similarities between the two?

Thom as the supposed name of the pharaoh of Exodus arises from the place name Pithom, since pi- means "house, city of" or "the", though the bible only mentions the place and not a king named Thom. The Thom of Pithom could alternatively be the god Atum/Tum/Tmu rather than a king Thom though. A king Thom is also found in the El-Arish inscription story which Veikovsky showed has quality matches with Exodus, and we have shown that the mention of Shu in the Arish account may be connected with the 2nd Hermes Shu who matches with the Middle Kindgom.

Possible matches for a king Thom include the king Amuntimaeus/Timaeus in the 12th dynasty, and a king Dudimose/Tutimaeus/Timaeus/Tawi-Thom/Thom in the 13th dynasty, though Spanuth placed Tawi-Thom in the 19th dynasty.

Pithom has generally been supposed to be Pa-tmu / Pi-tum / Per-atum / Patumus (Tell er-Retaba) in the north eastern Nile delta in north-east Lower Egypt, but we think/feel that this is unlikely for various reasons including that they have Pithom too close to Succoth and to the border. Exodus also mentions Goshen as well as Pithom & Ramses, and Goshen is in the Giza area in Middle Egypt, not in the north-eastern Delta. The site named Pitum in the Delta must just be a later same/similar namesake.

Our own 12th dynasty candidates for the city Pithom include:
- Pium/Fayum (lake Moeris) which was built by a 12th dynasty king according to Herodotus. (Note that Pium and Peratum are both associated with lakes.)
- The temple of (Ra-)Atum at Heliopolis in the reign of Kheper-ka-ra Senusret 1 (12th dyn, Bey).
- Atum who scholars claim the Ipuwer paprus of the "FIP or SIP" is linked with?
- "like the god Tmu" of Amemenhet 2?
- The unlocated capital city Itj-tawy in the 12th dynasty (m & w can interchange in some languages). (Compare tawy "two" with Thomas "twin"?)
- Meydum (m/p interchange?)
- Tithoes the name of the builder of the labyrinth?

Palmanothes has been suggested to possibly be the same as Amenemhet of the 12th dynasty, which is comparable to Phamenoph/Amenophis/Amenhotep of the 18th dynasty.

There are matches for Chenephres in our 6th-12th dynasty placement of Moses, eg:
- A 6th dyn pyramid name Kha-nefer;
- Memphis was also/alternatively called Kha-nefer (Bey);
- There were kings called Chenephres in 5th, 6th and 7th/8th (Memphite) dyns (Carpenter, Bey);
- A another king of 9th dyn was Kaneferre (a famine in his reign);
- Pyramid of Amenemhet 1 called Ka-nefer (12th dyn, Bey);
- A place Kanefer in Sinuhe story (Amenemhat, 12th dyn, Mercatante);

Some have compared Melol/Adikam in the book of Jashar with a 6th dynasty king. Similarities include:
- names similar;
- has 94 years in common with Pepy;
- both connected with dwarf/pygmy.

Shu & Geb are names of kings in the El-Arish inscription story which Velikovsky showed has quality matches with the Exodus story. Shu is also the 2nd of the 3 Hermes, and as such seems to match the Middle Kingdom and Moses, since the 3 Hermes (Set, Shu/Num & Thoth) seem to roughly match the 3 Kingdoms (Old, Middle & New) of Egyptian history, and match the Jewish 3 reincarnations (Seth, Moses & Samuel). Shu is also identified with Hercules, and Hercules the 2nd of 3 gods/groups (Pan, Hercules & Dionysus) in Herodotus also seems to match the Middle Kingdom. Shu & Geb are 3rd & 4th in the 10 god-kings dynasty, which also implies that the kings in the Arish account are in the earlier half of Egyptian dynastic history.

Table:
3 Hermes - 3 reincarnations - 3 kingdoms - 3 gods/groups
1st Set - 1 Seth (Shem) - 1 Old Kdm - 1 Pan (8 gods)
2nd Shu/Num - 2 Moses - 2 Mid Kdm - 2 Hercules (12 gods)
3rd Thoth - 3 Samuel - 3 New Kdm - 3 Dionysos.

The "new king" that arose "who knew not Joseph" could match the 12th dynasty which was a new kingdom, new capital, new dynasty, and new king(s). (Joseph was in the Memphite 3rd-4th dynasty and Old Kingdom.) The words "knew not" might also possibly relate to Joseph and sons having been married or adopted into the royal dynasties, and that the 12th dynasty kings were not related to him/them? (We have found that the 5th dynasty kings name might match sons or grandsons of Joseph or Jacob?)

The pharoah that Moses fled from could have reigned anywhere between 0/1 to 40 yrs (dying somewhere between Moses' 40th & 80th yrs), or between 40 to 80 yrs if he is the same as the Pharaoh of the massacre of babies (from Moses birth to "after Moses was grown" to 40 yrs old, dying between Moses' 40th & 80th year), or more if he reigned any years before Moses' birth and/or if is the same as the king who knew not Joseph that arose before Moses' birth.
If the pharaoh of the babies massacre is not the same as the one Moses fled from then he couldhave reigned aywhere between 0/1 to 40 yrs (Moses' birth to 40th year) or more if he reigned any years before Moses' birth and/or if sam as pharoah that knew not Joseph
The pharaoh that drowned in red sea could have reigned after the death of his predecessor/father anywhere between 0/1 yrs upto ca 40 yrs (his predecessor/father having died somewhere between Moses' 40th & 80th yr).

6th-12th dynasty candidates for the pharaoh drowned in the Red Sea include:
- Typhon/Set buried in Serbonis bog/lake/sea.
- "Pepi II's mummy has never been found". (May be Moses not pharaoh.)
- "Khety was driven mad and then eaten by a crocodile".
- Mentuhotep 3, tomb/sarcophagus never found.
- "Sesostris' mummy never found. (His grave had been ranscaked)" (Lissner). Herodotus says that the chariots/horses were lost in the time of Sesostris (12th dynasty).
- Amenemhet 4 no definitely ascribed/known burial/pyramid. (He may be Moses not pharaoh though.)
- "Neferhotep mummy never found".
- No mummy or coffin has been found for the last Pharaoh of the 13th dynasty, Koncharis.

Candidates for the firstborn son of the pharaoh/king include:
- Perhaps compare "who has overcome death" of Khnumhotep inscription? (It is said that "firstborn" in the Hebrew is more like chosen or elite rather than eldest child.)
- Amenemhet 4 presumed died prematurely.
- The 12th dynasty ended with a queen (Sobeknofru).
- "Naferhotep's son did not succeed him on the (vacated) throne", "Neferhotep suceeded by brother not son"

One source suggested Seqenenre of the 17th dynasty as a candidate for the slain firstborn son because of his wounds. However, Seqenenre seems alot more likely to match Sisera in the book of Judges because their head wounds seem to match very well.

NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2018 at 12:03

#. (Not by way of) the Philistines:

Exodus says the Israelites did not go "by the way of the Philistines" (i.e across northern top of the Sinai peninsula by the Mediterranean sea between the Nile Delta and Gaza Strip).

One of the few reasons why the conventional chronology has late dated Moses to the 19th dynasty ("1300/1200s" bc) is because the Philistines who are mentioned in the biblical account match the Peleset/Pereset who only appeared with the invasion of the Sea Peoples in the 19th & 20th dynasties. Since we place Moses in the (6th &) 12th dynasty this point about the Philistines must mean either that we are wrong (which we are pretty sure we are not), or that the bible's usage is an anachronism, or that there were Philistine-like peoples or names before the time of the 19th dynasty.

(Mentions of Philistines in the bible include the stories of: Abraham, Isaac, the Exodus, Shamgar, Jephthah, Samson, Eli/Samuel, Saul, David, Baasha, Zimri/Asa, Jehoshaphat, Elisha, Jehoram, Uzziah, Ahaz, Hezekiah, Jeremiah, Maccabees, Romans, PLO.)

The biblical "Philistines" could be an anachronism because the bible itself has "Philistines" at Gerar in the days of Abraham and Isaac, while elsewhere it says that the Philistines came from Caphtor at the same time as the Israelite exodus from Egypt (as also mentioned in Genesis 10), and Deuteronomy 2 says the Caphtorim came after previous Avvim who were in Philistia. The Torah is traditionally supposed to have been written by Moses (12th dyn). Modern scholars claim the bible was not finally finished until (before/during/after) the Babylonian captivity (the "Documentary Hypothesis").

There might possibly be Phiistine like peoples or names before the 19th dynasty, eg:
- Philitis (4th dyn)
- Phaistos (Minoan/Cretan)
- Pelasgians (pre-Hellenic Greeks)
- Pelusium (between north-east Delta & north-west Sinai peninsula).

(Philistine/Palestine is related to Ethiopian Falasha and means "immigrant(s), emigrants, to emigrate", "invaders", "villagers", "sojourners", "wanderers", "strangers, another tribe". Compare Kittim means "violent peltings" / "bruisers/break" / "invaders" / "westerners". Caphtor(im) means "knob" or "capital (pillar)". The bible calls the Mediterranean the sea of the Philistines.)

Also, we can prove some biblical Philistines were around before the 19th dynasty by the evidence that Achish son of Maoch/Maacah king of Gath (Gittite) & Ziglag of David's time seems to match Akizzi governor/king of Katna/Qatna/"Hamath" in the Amarna letters. (Maybe compare that Hamath & Gath are mentioned together in Amos 6:2?) Gath/Gaza is also mentioned in 18th dynasty records.
Gaza &/or Gath are also maybe similar to Hatti &/or Kassi? Goliath might possibly be connected with the Kassite name Kashtiliash? Hittite records mention a "Taitas/Tette/Da-te-wa/Daitewas/Dait-as/Eudaita/E(h)u-daitas king of land of Palastina/Walastina" which might be connected with King David?
Philistine pottery is related to Mycenaean Greek & Cretan pottery.
The Atlantis Account maybe implies that the Atlanteans (Sea Peoples) traveled through Europe and Asia and Libya over a length of time?

NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2018 at 03:43

One of the internal keys to ancient Egyptian vertical chronology is finding the correct decipherments of these codifed dates in the ancient sources:

- Den Seals
6 kings of 1st dyn (to 6th?)

- Gaza king list
24 gods, 6 kings 2nd to 5th/6th dyn, 28 cities, 3 x 4 groups of 8 gods, 4/12/27/43 columns, 5 chapters.

- Palermo Stone:
event occured in the year 363 of the kingdom
# kings 00/0/1st to 5th dyn, 2 sides, 7 fragments.

- South Saqqara
5 kings of (all preceeding to) 6th dyn.

- San Tablet:
Hyksos ing to 19th dyn king 400 yrs (disputed).

- Karnak
39/61 kings 1st/3rd to 18th dyn, 30 ks of 13th dyn, 3 rows/sections.

- Abydos
65/72/76 kings 1st to 12th/19th dyn, in 2/3 rows of 38 kings, omits FIP/SIP & Amarna heretic kings.

- Saqqara
47/58 kings 1st to 19th dyn, MK in "reverse" order, omits SIP/Hyksos & Amarna herectic kings.

- Turin Papyrus
Set 200
Horus 300
Thoth 3126
1000
20 ...s 1110
330
10 ...s 1000
19 ks Memphis 11
19 ks North 2100
gods-north 23200
ShemsuHor 13420
gods-shemsuhor 36620
1-8 dyns 949/955 yrs (and/incl 6 kingless yrs)
1 dyn 261 yr
2 dyn 256 yr
1-2 dyn 517 yr
3 dyn 74
4 dyn 123
5 dyn 140
6 dyn 181
8 dyn 140
11 dyn 43/143 yr?
12 dyn 212/213
over 300 kings 1st to 19th dyn, in 11 columns, in 160 fragments.

- The legend of Se-Osiris versus an/the Ethiopian, places the war of enchantments between Horus son of Tnahsit versus the chief magician of the Pharaoh (which is similar to Exodus events [12th dynasty]), 500 years prior to the [19th or 21st] dynasty.

- Bible:
Abe-Jose 215 yrs
Jose-Moses 430 yrs
Moses-Sol/Shishak 480 yrs
exile 40 yrs

- Sonchis/Solon/Plato
900(0)
Sais 800(0)

- Architects:
24/22 architects 3rd/21st-27th/31st dyn

- Herodotus 450 bc
Pan 8 gods 12177 yrs
Hercules 12/16 gods 6846 yrs
Dionysos 5813 yrs
Pan-Dionysos 24836 yrs
4th dyn 150 yrs
sun reversals 39000 yrs
Pan & 8 gods to Amasis 2 : 29220 yr = 20 sothic cycles
Hercules & 12 gods to Amasis 17000/17043 yrs
Dionysos-Amasis 15000 yrs
Min to 26 dyn 11340/1340 yrs
Dionysos-Herodotus 1600 yrs
Moeris-Amasis 900 yrs
Hercules-Herodotus 900 yrs
Pan-Herodotus 800 yrs
Anysis-Amasis 700 yrs
(3/41/300/330/341 kings 1st to 28th dyn, (1)1340 yrs, 18 Ethiopians, 2/4 x sun reversed.)

- Manetho &/or Herodotus?
Ptah 9000/742
Amen 7000
Ra 1000/992/991/86
Ptah-Ra 10000
Shu 700/56
Geb 501/40/500
Osiris 433/35/450
Set 359/29/200/350
Horus vs Set 80 yrs
Horus (Apollo) 309/300/100/25
Thoth 3126/7726
Maat
Horus (Apollo) 309/300/100/25
Ares/Mars (Mentu) 92/23/284
Anubis 68/17/210
Hercules (Mars) 60/15/186
Apollo (Horus) 100/25/309
Ammon (Zeus/Jupiter) 120/30/371
Tithoes 108/27/334
Sosos/Zosus 128/32/396
Zeus (Amun) 80/20/247
wanting 2
Bytes/Bydis

- Apis bulls:
18th dyn to 20th dyn & 22nd to 33rd dyn

- Denderah zodiac:
Leo "10950-8800" bc

- Manetho 323-282 bc
Ptah-Ra 10000 yrs
Shu-Horus 2300 yrs
gods 1 dyn 12300 yrs
gods 1 dyn / 6 dyns gods 11985 / 1183.5 years
gods 1a dyn 11626
gods 2 dyn / 9 dyns with demigods 858 yrs
gods 1b-2 dyn 1217
gods 1-2 dyn 12843
gods 1-2 dyn 13870 yrs
gods 1-2a dyn 12177?
gods 2 dyn 1570 yrs
gods 3 dyn 1056
gods 1-3 dyns 13899
30 demigods dyn 3650 yrs
demigods 5124
gods 2b to manes 6846?
gods-demigods 19023
manes 5813
transitional/chaos 350 yrs
gods 2 (thoth) to Chaos 5570 yrs
divine dyns (gods-manes) 24836 yrs
10 dyn 185 yr
11 dyn 43/143 yr
13 dyn 453 yr
17 dyn 151 yr
# kings from gods/1st to 30/31/32/33 dyns.

Eratosthenes:
2900 a.m.?
38 kings 1st to 6th to ? dyn 1076 yrs
3976 a.m.?

Eratosthenes:
Noah 1056?
2 Sothic cycles 2920?

- Diodorus Siculus
gods & heroes 18000
mortals 5000
gods-mortals 23000 yrs

- Apollonius Rhodius
Sesortosis  3712 bc
2500  yr
Nilus 1212 bc
436 yr
Olympiad 776 bc

- Manetho/Josephus late 1st cent ad
Menes-Shishak/Solomon 1300 yrs
Hyksos 518 yr (Hyksos afraid of Assyrians)
393 years Hyksos driven out before Danaus/Hermeus
19-20 dyn 13 fatal yrs

- Tacitus
4 phoenixes in anc Egyptian history (phoenix 500 yrs)

- Sothaic/Siriadic cycles:
"11542" bc (8 cycles)
"2773" bc
1460 yrs (Senusert 2, "1872" bc)
"1317" bc
1460 yrs (Amenhotep 1, "1551-1524" bc)
138/139 ad

- Manetho/Africanus 220
manes 5813
gods-manes 24836 yrs + interpolation 990 yrs = 25826 yrs
1-11 dyn 2038/2300/2293/2278/2313/2303/2283 yrs
12-19 dyn 2121/2222/2213/2238/2218/2243 yrs
Amasis 1 : 25 yrs
1-19 dyn 4551/4424/4429/4501/4516 yrs
interregnum
1-26 dyn 5151.5 yrs
7 dyn 70 yr
8 dyn 146 yr
9 dyn 409 yr
10 dyn 185/204 yr
13 dyn 453
14 dyn 184 yr
16 dyn 518/190 yrs
17 dyn 151 yr
20 dyn 135 yr
20-31 dyn 1050/868/848/864/852 yrs
24 dyn 6 yr
27-31 dyn 197 yrs
1-31 5601/5474/5479/5349/5368 yrs
Ochus 348 bc
-30 dyn 30437 yrs

- Manetho/Eusebius ear 4th cent
gods 13900
Demi 1 dyn 1255
demi 2 / kings 1817
demi 3 dyn 30 ks Memphis 1702/1790
demi 4 dyn 10 ks This/Thinis 350 yrs
various kings 3957
Manes 5813
demi-manes 11025
gods-manes 24925
1-11 dyn 1842/1848 yrs
12-19 dyn 1967/1881/1879/1944/1942 yrs
14 dyn 184/484 yr
1-19 dyn 3809/3723 yrs
1-26 dyn 4383/4384 yrs = 3 sothic cycles
7 dyn 75 yr
8 dyn 100 yr
9 dyn 100 yr
10 dyn 185/204 yr
13 dyn 453
15 dyn 250
16 dyn 250/190 yrs
20 dyn 178 yr
20-26 dyn 575 yr
20-31 dyn 802/804/837/842 yrs
24 dyn 44 yr
26/27-31 dyn 227 yrs
1-31 dyn 4611/4565/4651 yrs
-30 dyn 30437 yrs = 20 cycles of 1521

- Jerome
16 dyn
17 dyn
18 dyn
20 dyn
480 yr
21 dyn
22 dyn
23 dyn
25 dyn
26 dyn
27 dyn
28 dyn
29 dyn
30 dyn

- Manetho/Africanus/Eusebius/Syncellus 784-806
Ptah 9000
Ra 991
Shu 700
Geb 501
Osiris 433
Set 359
gods 1 dyn 11984
gods 2 dyn 2646
gods 1-2 dyn 14630
Divine dyns 34201 yrs
8 demigods / 217 years
14 dyn 184/484 yr
15 gens 443 yrs
16-19 dyn 835 yrs
interregnum 178 yrs
20-30/31 dyn 868 yrs
1-30/31 dyn 2324 yrs
Ochus 348 bc
divine dyns & 30 dyns 36525 yrs = 25 sothic cycles

- Book of Sothis
Mizraim-Concharis 700 yrs
4 kings Tanis 254
Mizraim-Tanis 955 yrs
25/29/86 kings, 4 of Tanis

- Masoudi
Surid 300 yrs before Flood

- Newton

- anon sources:
3 dyn 55/215 yrs
7 dyn 6 kingless years
9 dyn 100/409 yrs (Eusebius/Africanus)
10 dyn 185/204 yr
11 dyn 100 + 43 = 143
13 dyn 453
14 dyn 76 ks 484/184 yr
15 Hyksos dyn 259/250 yr
16 dyn 32 ks 511/518/190 yr
17 dyn 151/103/221 yr
18 dyn 170 yr
22 dyn 150 yr
27 dyn 120 yr
29 dyn 20 yr

----

- Castor
Gods to 18th dyn 3720 yrs

- Suidas
Gods-Kings 4650 yrs

- Manetho/Barbarus
13 dyn 153 at Bubastis + ... at Thebes = 453 yrs
(15th dyn 70 yrs?)
Thebes 221 yrs
17 Theban dyn 70 yrs

- anon source:
divine dyns 30437 yrs
4 solar cycles 5601 + 486 = 6087 yrs
divine dyns & solar cycles = 24 solar cycles = 36524 yrs.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 19-Nov-2018 at 13:11
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2018 at 13:35

There is dispute whether the 400 or 430 yrs sojourn of the Hebrews in Egypt was 430 yrs between Joseph & Moses in Egypt alone as in Masoretic text, or 430 yrs between Abraham & Moses in "Egypt and Canaan" as in the Septagint and Josephus. Both sides agree on ca 215 yrs from Abraham to Joseph, but they significantly differ on whether 430 or 215 years from Joseph to Moses (and whether ca 645 or 430 yrs from Abraham to Moses). It is our own opinion from various biblical and Egyptian evidences that the period in Egypt between Joseph and Moses is 430 not "215" years.

- Bible only mentions 430/400 yrs not any "215" yrs.

- The Massoretic text is probably more reliable than the Greek/Egyptian influenced Septuagint.

- The words "in Egypt and Canaan" could be between Joseph & Moses because some of Ephraim's/Manasseh's sons were said to be in Canaan between Joseph & Moses giving the impression that some Hebrews were also in Canaan during the sojourn in Egypt.

- It has been said that in the book of Exodus genealogy of Levi to Moses, the Hebrew particle that indicates direct son of is lacking (except for with Amram to Moses), unlike in the Genesis genealogies which are direct "son of" ones, which implies that there are possible gaps the genealogies between Levi, Kohath and Amran? (Though a critic has since claimed that the begats are not not direct sons of?)

- Comparing biblical tribes geneaologies, there are more generations between Joshua/Caleb/etc and their tribal patriarch (11) than there are between Levi and Moses/Aaron (2/4).

- The Jewish date of 2666 a.m. for exodus implies a thousand years between the Flood and the exodus, and ca 645 yrs between Abraham & Moses, and 400 years between Joseph & Moses. The Flood in 1656 (+ 10 x 1) and exodus in 2666 also may be linked with 666.

- Evidence is that Joseph was about the 3rd/4th dynasty, and Moses about the 12th dynasty. 215 would be too short for this period (though we connect Moses with the 6th dynasty with the 12th dynasty, and the FIP is of uncertain length).

- Surid 300 yrs before the "flood" is comparable to Joseph 400 or "200" yrs before exodus. (Joseph was in the same 3rd/4th dynasty as Surid.) The prophesied 150 yrs duration of the 4th dynasty might possibly be half of Surid's 300 years like "215" is half of 430 years in biblical?

- The events in the legend of "Horus (Behdeti of Edfu) versus the adversaries of Re(- Harakhty)" are said to have taken place in the year 363 in the reign of Re-Harakhty, matching , and these accounts are similar the the exodus story.
"Osiris came from Nubia in the 365th year of his reign accompanied by Horus, to chase Set out of Egypt", "the war occured in the 363rd year of era of Menes", "the same event occured in the year 363 of the kingdom" in the Palermo Stone. These versions might match either/both the exodus, and/or the expulsion of the Hyksos, and/or the exodus of Osarsiph.

- "8 demigods for 217 years before 15 generations for 443 years" of Syncellus is possibly similar to the biblical 215 yrs Abraham to Joseph, and 430 yrs Josep to Moses?

- "500 years to Moses/Azrail"?

- 448/409 years for 4th &/or 9th dynasties, and/or 453 &/or 484 years for dynasties 13 &/or 14 dynasties could be in arrears or in advance (Joseph was 3rd-4th dyn, Moses was 6th & 12th dyn).
- 500 yrs reign god-king Geb? 450/400 years reign of Osiris? 350 yrs reign god-king Set? 300 yrs reign god-king Horus? 350 yrs chaos betw demi-gods dyn & Menes? (Geb is mentioned in the El-Arish inscription which account is similar to the exodus account. Set/Seth was a god of foreigners and is linked with the biblical Seth & Shem.)

- 430 yrs gap in Sumerian king list in Kish 4 dynasty considered to be either in arrears (Waddell) or in advance to Isin dynasty (Hoeh). (Kubaba of Kish 3 just before Kish 4 might match Jacob/Khufu? Sargon of Akkad just after Kish 4 might be connected with Joseph?)

- Moses seems to be both 6th dynasty and 12th dynasty, so the 1st Intermediate Period is even more uncertain length and so there might be either 430 or 215 years between Joseph (4th dyn) and Moses (6th & 12th dyn).

The 400 years from a Hyksos king to a 19th dynasty king in the "San tablet of 400 years" is disputed by some to not necessarily mention any Hyksos king but only maybe a god. If the period is right then it better matches the 480 yrs from Moses (12th dyn) to Solomon (19th dyn) than the 430 yrs from Joseph (4th dyn) to Moses (12th dyn). The Hyksos period roughly matches the Judges period in the bible. Josephus also had the maximum Hyksos period lasting 500 yrs.

Our scenario also has matches for the 480 years from Moses (ca 1400s bc) (12th dyn) to Solomon ("900s" bc) (19th dyn).
400 years from Hykso king to 19th dyn king in the "San Tablet of 400 years".
Josephus confirms 500 yrs for extended Hyksos period from 15th dyn to 18th/19th dyn.
Moeris (12th dyn) was 900 yrs before Amasis 2 in Herodotus.

-----

Two asterisks mark ones in Joseph's time and Moses' time.

Levi (gap?) Kohath* (gap?) Amram/Amran Moses*

Joseph Ephraim/Manasseh* Machir Gilead ....

Judah/Tamar Zerah/Perez Hezron* Ram/Arni Amminadab Nahshon* Salma/Rahab Boaz/Ruth Obed Jesse David

Ephraim* Beriah Rephah Resheph Telah Tahan Ladan Ammihud Elishama* Nun Joshua

Judah Perez Hezron* Caleb*

(refs: gen 46; exod 6; num 1; num 2; num 7; num 10; num 13; num 26; num 34; chron 2-10.)

"10 generations reach from Joshua back to Ephraim".
"480 yrs = 12 generations of 40 years".
"15 generations sothaic cycle / 443 years" (Book of Sothis / Syncellus).



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 23-Nov-2018 at 06:38
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2019 at 19:37

Sisera of Judges 4 (in the Bible) matches Seqenenre of the 17th dynasty of Egypt.

First the 2 whole general accounts compared:

Sisera (Judges 4:2 - 5:30, 12:9) : "... Jabin king of Canaan,
who reigned in Hazor; the captain of whose army was Sisera,
who lived in Harosheth [Arish? Avaris?] of the Gentiles
[Hyksos "foreign nations"]. .... Sisera, the captain
of Jabin's army, with his chariots [Hyksos introducted these]....
Then Jael Heber's wife took a tent peg, and took a hammer
in her hand, and went softly to him, and struck the pin
into his temples, and it pierced through into the ground;
for he was in a deep sleep; so he swooned and died. ....
He came to her; and behold, Sisera lay dead, and the tent
peg was in his temples.
.... She put her hand to the tent peg, and her right hand to
the workmen's hammer.  With the hammer she struck Sisera.
She struck through his head.  Yes, she pierced and struck
through his temples.
At her feet he bowed, he fell, he lay.  At her feet he bowed,
he fell.  Where he bowed, there he fell down dead. .... Sisera,
captain of the army of Hazor [Avaris/Hauar? Luxor?]...."
Psalm 83:9-10 "Do to them as you did to Midian, as to
Sisera, as to Jabin, at the river Kishon [Arish? pun on Hyksos?];
who perished at Endor, who became as dung for the earth."

Seqenen-ra (Tao 2, 17th dynasty of ancient Egypt) :
"Apepi 1 complains to his Theban counterpart Seqenenre Tao...."
"The terrible wounds on Seqenenre's skull were caused by ... people attacking him with a dagger, an axe, a spear (or javelin) and possibly a mace. The horizontal nature of the ... wounds indicate that he was lying on his right side, either asleep or having been felled by a blow. The body was hurredly embalmed (perhaps on the battlefield) without the usual careful preparation...." "... evidence of terrible wounds about the head."
"... Apepi in connection with an Egyptian under-king Seqenenra...."
"My father was a captain of the deceased king Seqenenra.... .... I conveyed by water the deceased king Serkara...."

Now the matches detail by detail for any who dont/cant see the details matches as very clear/strong (as some didn't last year) :

(The way the below is done is in each block we first we list the detail of Sisera and then the similar matching detail of Seqenenre.)

Names (& meanings) similar:
Sisera:
Name Sisera (samekh + yod, sus + sera, ses + Ra) meaning either
"Sisera's name has been variously identified as Philistine, Hittite, Hurrian, or Egyptian"
"most historians are not sure or agreed on where Sisera was from", or
"(Hawk eye, an Hebrew euphemism meaning) Servant of Ra. (Ra was the Egyptian god depicted with a bird head on a human body. He wore a sun disk encircled by a serpent.)" or
"(might be applied to almost anything that darted around quickly such as a) horse or swallow", or
"snake", or
"ready for war" or
"supporting something/someone + a hand".
Seqenenre:
Egyptian name Seken-en-ra/Seqen-en-re (Tao 2) means
"(he) who strikes like Ra/Re/sungod" or "he whom Ra makes brave".
(Se-ra/Sa-re also means "son of Ra/Re".)
(For the -en- being excluded compare the name Aa-en-ru or Aaru. Also compare Romt/Rot, Shemsu/Shasu. For k/q & s sometimes interchanging in Egyptian compare Keb/Qeb/Seb, Khent/Shent?)

Head wound same/similar:
Sisera:
"Then Jael, Heber's wife took a tent peg, and took a hammer/mallet
in her hand
, and went softly to him, and struck the pin/nail
into his temples
, and it pierced through into the ground;
.... He came to her; and behold, Sisera lay dead, and the tent
peg was in his temples
."
".... She put her hand to the tent peg, and her right hand to
the workmen's hammer
.  With the hammer she struck Sisera.
She struck through his head.  Yes, she pierced and struck
through his temples
."
(Note: The bible text doesn't necessarily say there was definitely only one blow/wound/hole. The peg struck through to the ground. The "tent peg" might have had more than one spike? He fell down and might have been damaged in fall? It was a clumsy-like striking with a tent peg and a mace by a woman. She might have struck more than once? He he had also just come from a battle and might have been wounded? Bible sometimes has some contradictions and there might be one here re one saying he was lying and pierced through to ground, and other he fell down)
(The name Sisera might mean "supporting something/someone + a hand".)
Seqenenre:
"The terrible wounds on Seqenenre's skull were caused by ... people attacking him with a dagger, an axe, a spear (or javelin) and possibly a mace."
"... evidence of terrible wounds about the head."
"A blow from an axe must have severed part of his left cheek, exposed the teeth, fractured the jaw, and sent him senseless to the ground; another blow must have seriously injured the skull, and a dagger or javelin has cut open the forehead on the right side, a little above the eye. His body must have remained lying where it fell for some time"
"...it is not known whether he fell upon the field of battle or was the victim of some plot"
"The wound on his forehead was probably caused by a Hyksos axe and his neck wound was probably caused by a dagger...."
(The source mentions a few different possibilities for the weapon implying they are not sure/certain as to the correct exact one/ones used. Also, the theories are due to that the modern analysts did not know that a tent peg and mace had been used.)
(The name Seqenenre may mean "(he) who strikes like Ra/Re/sun-god".)

Both laying/fell down:
Sisera:
"and went softly to him, and struck the pin
into his temples, and it pierced through into the ground;
for he was in a deep sleep; so he swooned and died. ....
He came to her; and behold, Sisera lay dead"
"At her feet he bowed, he fell, he layAt her feet he bowed,
he fell
.  Where he bowed, there he fell down dead."
Seqenenre:
"The horizontal nature of the ... wounds indicate that he was lying on his right side, either asleep or having been felled by a blow."
"...it is not known whether he fell upon the field of battle or was the victim of some plot"
"A blow from an axe must have severed part of his left cheek, exposed the teeth, fractured the jaw, and sent him senseless to the ground; another blow must have seriously injured the skull, and a dagger or javelin has cut open the forehead on the right side, a little above the eye. His body must have remained lying where it fell for some time"
"The wound on his forehead was probably caused by a Hyksos axe and his neck wound was probably caused by a dagger while he was prone. There are no wounds on his arms or hands, which suggests he was not able to defend himself."
"Until 2009 the main hypotheses have been that he died either in a battle against the Hyksos or was killed while sleeping."

Both at a battle before they died:
Sisera:
"the captain of whose army was Sisera .... Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army." "persuaded Barak to face Sisera in battle ... at the Battle of Mount Tabor.... .... After losing the battle, Sisera fled...."
(Name may mean "ready for war".)
Seqenenre
:
"killed/died in battle". "battle wounds".
"...it is not known whether he fell upon the field of battle or was the victim of some plot"
"Until 2009 the main hypotheses have been that he died either in a battle against the Hyksos or was killed while sleeping. .... ... following a Theban defeat on the battlefield."
("credited with starting the opening moves in a war of revanchism against Hyksos")
(Name may mean "(he) who strikes like Ra/Re/sungod", "he whom Ra makes brave". Called "The Brave".)

Both died (nearby a river) in Canaan/Palestine (not Egypt):
Sisera:
"... Jabin king of Canaan, who reigned in Hazor; the captain of whose army was Sisera, who lived in Harosheth" (Judges).
"Do to them as you did to Midian, as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the river Kishon; who perished at Endor...." (Psalm 83:9-10.)
"at the Battle of Mount Tabor on the plain of Esdraelon. .... Sisera fled to the settlement of Heber the Kenite in the plain of Zaanaim".
Seqenenre:
"The body was hurredly embalmed (perhaps on the battlefield) without the usual careful preparation...."
"His body must have remained lying where it fell for some time: when found, decomposition had set in, and the embalming had to be hastily performed as best it might."
".... I conveyed by water the deceased king Serkara...."
"His mummy appears to have been hastily embalmed. ... his mummy is the worst preserved of all the royal mummies.... ... due to the poor embalming process...."

Both next below a king/lord:
Sisera:
"... Jabin king of Canaan, who reigned in Hazor; the captain of whose army was Sisera .... Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots."
(The name Sisera might mean "Servant of Ra", or "supporting something/someone + a hand".)
Seqenenre:
"New Kingdom literary tradition states that Seqenenre Tao came into contact with his Hyksos contemporary in the north, Apepi or Apophis."
"Apepi 1 (Hyksos king) complains to his Theban counterpart Seqenenre Tao...."
"... Apepi in connection with an Egyptian under-king Seqenenra...."
"My father was a captain of the deceased king Seqenenra...."

Both linked with chariots/horses:
Sisera:
Jabin and Sisera are linked with iron chariots and iron.
".... Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots"
Seqenenre:
The Hyksos supposedly introduced the chariot/horse into Egypt.

Similar place/people names?
Sisera:
"Sisera, who lived in Harosheth of the Gentiles. .... Sisera,
captain of the army of Hazor...."
"Do to them as you did to Midian, as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the river Kishon;"
"proposed that the excavation at El-Ahwat, between Katzir-Harish and Nahal Iron, is the site of Harosheth Haggoyim"
Seqenenre:
Hyksos/Heqa-Khase "foreign nations"? Amu "gentiles"? Avaris/Hauar? El-Arish (wadi/river)? Luxor (18th dyn)? (Sharuhen?)
(Palace of mud brick & fortifications at Deir el-Ballas overlooking the river?)

Both foreign/Canaanite/Hyksos dominators of Israelites:
Sisera: Canaanite king dominated Israelites.
("31 kings followed Sisera")
Seqenenre: Hyksos/Egypt ruled over Egypt & Canaan.

Both possibly similar 20-40 yrs?
Sisera:
Jabin & Sisera ruled over Israel for 20 yrs. (40 yrs peace.)
"Sisera had previously conquered every country against which he had fought."
Seqenenre:
Reigned "likely only a few years". "The relatively short length of the reign of Seqenenre...."
"died a violent death when about forty years of age".
(Apepi/Apophis ruled for "40 yrs or more".)

Supposedly different dates is only orthodox theory:
Sisera:
Moses matches the 12th dynasty; Sisera matches the 17th dynasty; David matches the Amarna period of the 18th dynasty.
Seqenenre: supposedly dates to 1500s bc. However modern scholars ascribed dates for the Egyptian dynasties are only theories based on relatively few unreliable chronological dating methods (two Siriadic/Sothaic daties, adding up many reigns lengths). There is no ancient reliable proof/confirmation of their ascribed dynasties dates.

Both mean/bad/foul:
Sisera: was bad in bible.
Seqenenre: "a foul, oily smell filled the room the moment the case in which his body was exhibited was opened".

Both under a overlord king:
Sisera: The bible doesn't call Sisera a king, only a captain, but it doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't a king.
Seqenenre: He is supposed to have been a king/pharaoh, but some sources say/imply he was a sub-king (of the Hyksos overlord pharaoh/king) or (rebel) prince, and Egyptian kinglists are not necessarily always totally reliable/honest about who were "kings".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisera
http://theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/4499/sisera?page=1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seqenenre_Tao



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 19-Jan-2019 at 19:56
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2019 at 01:02

Akh-en-aten / Khu-en-aten who had an odd body due to genetic/disease

may match

Agur-ben-Jakeh "the able-bodied man" (Proverbs 30, time of David/Solomon)?

(Akhenaten means "he who serves the Aten" or "he in who Aton is satisfied" or "effective for the Aten".
Agur ben Jakeh was of uncertain origin/meaning, theorised to mean "compiler" or "the 1 who is brave in the pursuit of wisdom" + "son of" + "the 1 who spat out, despised" or "he who is free from sin, pure" or "to obey, obedient".)

Hymn to Aten similar to Psalm.

3 yrs drought/famine of Amarna period and of David's reign match.

Akizzi governor/king of Katna/Qatna/"Hamath" in Amarna letters may match Achish son of Maoch/Maacah king of Gath (Gittite) & Ziglag (Philistines)?

NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2019 at 02:44
In order to establish a much more realistic Biblical-Egyptian history, there must be some verifiable anchor point in verified chronology.   Since we do have a year-by-year chronology of the kings of Assyria from 911 to 649 BC and since the Assyrian inscriptions which can be dated within that chronology mention Israelite kings mentioned in the Bible we can incorporate the Israelite into the established chronology.  The earliest of these kings mentioned in the Assyrian inscriptions was Ahab in the reign of Shalmaneser III.   In the Assyrian king's 6th year (853 BC) Ahab was mentioned as a member of an alliance of Syro-Palestinian rulers defeated in battle by the Assyrian king at Qarqar in the Syro-Hittite kingdom of Hamath.   Subsequent mentions of Israelite kings in dated Assyrian inscriptions indicate that 853 BC was also the year of the death of Ahab.  This would then be the earliest anchor point to any Biblical chronology earlier in time.
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2019 at 23:05
To add more flesh in establishing 853 BC as the last year of Ahab, the Assyrian dated inscriptions mention in the Black Obelisk the tribute of Jehu in 841 BC which would've been the 18th year of Shalmaneser.  So we have the following:

Ahab-----------------------------------Shalmaneser III, year 6 - 853 BC
Jehu-----------------------------------Shalmaneser III, year 18 - 841 BC

The information in the Bible has 2 kings between Ahab and Jehu

Ahab
Ahaziah (2 years)
Joram (12 years)
Jehu

So, there is a 14 year difference between the last year of Ahab and the first year of Jehu.  In the same time period there is a 13 year difference (inclusive) between the 6th and 18th years of Shalmaneser.  We can then do the following:

Ahab (to 853 BC)-----------------------Shalmaneser III, year 6 - 853BC
Ahaziah (2) 853-852 BC
Joram (12) 852-841 BC
Jehu (from 841 BC)---------------------Shalmaneser III, year 18 - 841 BC

If this chronology is sound, then we can date the earlier kings of Israel using the 853 BC baseline, since we have their lengths of reign:

Jeroboam I (22 years) 931-910 BC
Nadab (2 years) 910-909 BC
Baasha (24 years) 909-886 BC
Elah (2 years) 886-885 BC
Zimri (7 days) 885 BC
Omri (12 years) 885-874 BC
Ahab (22 years) 874-853 BC

Now the earliest Israelite king in this series, Jeroboam I rebelled against Rehoboam soon after the latter became king, dividing the kingdom into northern and southern kingdoms.  Hence we can date Rehoboam's reign as also beginning in about 931 BC.  The Bible records that in Rehoboam's 5th year, Shishak, king of Egypt attacked and sacked Jerusalem.   This would've occurred by about 926 BC.  We thus have our first chronologically sound connection between Egypt and Israel of the Bible.   

The next post will be a discussion on the problems matching Biblical and Egyptian history.

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  Quote Atlantean35 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2019 at 06:09
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin


Akh-en-aten / Khu-en-aten who had an odd body due to genetic/disease

It's been recently found that Akhenaten chose to depict himself in that form deliberately. Something about scans revealing the body of Akhenaten to be different from the actual statues or something along those lines. Somehow it was his way of elevating himself to godhood.



Edited by Atlantean35 - 25-Jul-2019 at 02:32
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  Quote Atlantean35 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2019 at 06:15
I think what might help solve the chronology issues is that there were multiple administrative districts within the Nile Egypt region. More specifically, another major adminstration in Egypt to the north of Thebes or Memphis that the Pharaohs were serving or under the nominal authority of. With possibly multiple Pharaohic lines existing concurrently and continuously.


Edited by Atlantean35 - 23-Jul-2019 at 21:18
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Chieftain
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2019 at 02:05
I think what might help solve the chronology issues is that there were multiple administrative districts within the Nile Egypt region. More specifically, another major adminstration in Egypt to the north of Thebes or Memphis that the Pharaohs were serving or under the nominal authority of. With possibly multiple Pharaohic lines existing concurrently and continuously.

Yes, consensus among Egyptologists is that the chronology from Shishak to Osorkon IV of the 22nd Dynasty also included collateral lines, including the 23rd and 24th dynasties.   In an inscription of the Kushite king, Piye, he mentioned the submission of the rulers of all three dynasties.   However the yardstick for the amount of time passed for the Libyan period of Egypt is the chronology of the 22nd Dynasty since it was the longest and outlasted the other dynasties.

This is the subject of my current investigation as to how scholars fit the known regnal data of the 22nd Dynasty kings and how it fits into the chronology of the Bible.

Since we have a date for the time of Shishak (c. 926 BC) we now need to establish one for the last king of Dynasty 22, Osorkon IV.   Again, we can do this with the help of the Assyrian Eponym Canon, that year-by-year list of eponyms of the Assyrian kings.   According to that year-by-year list, the Assyrian king Sargon II reigned from 721 to 705 BC.  During his reign he mentioned two Egyptian kings, "Silkanni" in his 6th year and later "Shapataku" in his 15th year.  The first is almost certainly Osorkon IV of the Libyan 22nd Dynasty and the latter was Shebitku of the Kushite 25th Dynasty.  From the Egyptian inscriptions we know that Shebitku's dynasty completed the Kushite conquest of Egypt ending the 22nd, 23rd, and 24th dynasties.

We thus have the following according to the Assyrian inscriptions:

Osorkon IV (Silkanni)----------------------------------Sargon, year 6 - 716 BC
Shebitku (Shapataku)----------------------------------Sargon, year 15 - 707 BC

According to the Egyptian sources we have the following:

DYNASTY 22                                  DYNASTY 25
Osorkon IV----------------------------Piye (30 years) 747-717 BC
                                                    Shebitku, son (12 years) 717-705 BC
                                                    Shabaka, brother (15 years) 705-690 BC
                                                    Taharqa, brother (26 years) 690-664 BC

According the Shebitku's inscription he completed the conquest of Egypt in his 2nd year, 715 BC.   Since Osorkon II is attested in 716 BC, the 22nd Dynasty must have ended by 715 BC.   We therefore have as pin dates 925 and 716 BC.     Can we then fill in the gaps?

This will be addressed in a forthcoming post.
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  Quote Atlantean35 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2019 at 04:21
The Kushites were likely from an older projection out of the Nile Delta central that took place before the existence of the Pharaohic lines (which I don't believe stretches that far back). This specific southward projection had likely moved up the Nile River and stretched from Lake Chad to the Horn of Africa (with Lake Chad being a probable penal colony or a place of exile). Later on, something must have went wrong with main Nile Delta administration, such as a major cataclysm where their capital city was destroyed. This eventually prompted the descendants of the old administration upriver to reassert their dominance over Egypt. What this means is, the Pharoahs were more like vassal lords, or overseers, serving a much older establishment that existed in Egypt. An establishment we mostly know very little about.

When the central establishment collapsed (quite literally?), its possible their mainstream populations and families became enslaved and that among these were the Hebrew. The Nile River turning red, could only reasonably be accomplished upriver. Thus it was probably the Kushites who were behind it, and were in the process of reestablishing the old order in Egypt. So its likely the tale of Moses takes place near the end of the New Kingdom as it transitions into the Kushite Kingdom. Akhenaten attempted to elevate himself because the old establishment had been destroyed around his life time or before. Then the descendants of the old establishment, as the Kushites, were reestablishing their dominance over Egypt and the pharoahs, perhaps engaging in a coordinated pincer movement with the northern colonies in the Black Sea.

edit:
Regarding this older establishment in Egypt I mentioned, it's generally not well known, but I can say that they were likely a nocturnal race and had highly advanced studies in astronomy and its associated calendars and mathematics. They were likely the inventors of fire very long ago along with various other technologies of that time period. They likely originated from the Nile Delta. In Egypt outside the Nile Delta, they were probably using the Pharaohs (non-nocturnal hybrids) as daytime overseers of various districts. They also probably established Troy for strategic reasons, for maintaining links and trade with their colonies in the Black Sea. They were likely the ancestors of the Indo-Europeans in the Black Sea-Pontic Steppe regions. They probably had some stratification in language for the different land segments in the delta, but their "upper tier" language was probably something closest to Latin, which was preserved in the administratively important city of Troy, whereby the other IE languages fell off or had interacted with this language. They were major seafarers. Some time after the establishment of Troy and the prior to the pharaoh Akhenaten, their capital city suffered a catastrophe and was completely destroyed, wiping out the main leadership. It's from this void that the pharaohs became more of rulers of Egypt.

(It was probably the Etruscans who were colonists from Troy, as per Roman traditions of being founded by Troy. It was found that the likely descendants of the Etruscans had an affinity with the people in the western coasts of Anatolia.)


Edited by Atlantean35 - 25-Jul-2019 at 03:24
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