date of Badon &/or Arthur

In this thread we seek answer to mystery of what the true date of Badon and/or Arthur is.
The DEB of Gildas seems to imply that duce Ambrosius/Aurelius was the leader at the battle of Badon. (Bede possibly implies either Germanus or Ambrosius lead Badon?)
The HB of Nennius says dux "Arthur" was the leader in 12 battles of which the last one was Badon.
The Welsh Annals say Arthur lead battle of Badon. (Scholars have pointed out that Badon of the AC and Guinnion of the HB have similar details, so there might be 2 Badons, with Badon 1 matching Guinnion of the HB, and Badon 2 matching Badon of the HB.)
Evidence suggests "Arthur" may not have been the real original name of the real person that Arthur was, and Arthur seemingly may well be Ambrosius.
Gildas' information on Badon's date has some details which scholars are uncertain about: Did he mean 44 yrs from advent to Badon, or 44 yrs from Badon to writing? Did he mean his birthday was day of Saxons arrival or day of Badon? The correct dates of all the events (Saxon advent, Badon, writing, death) are not known for sure. Bede's information seems to be mainly based on Gildas'.
The Welsh Annals information on the date of Badon also has some uncertainties.

In this post we tentatively suggest that Badon may match "Benedict shone" 482 of the ASC, and Gildas' 44 years might be linked with Columba's 45 yrs of the ASC, and that Arthur's death may possibly match Natanleod slain in 508 of the ASC.
(I'm not sure whether Arthur died in 508/509 (Natanleod/Benedict) or 536 (Benedict/Camlan) or 574/575/577 (Bedcanford / Brendan / Pol Aurelian / Dyrham/Bath)?)


Firstly a list of the traditional and/or scholarly dates for a number of Arthurian things.


Aetius/Agitius: Aetius 446(-454) (Brynjulfson, Wiki); [Avitus 455-456? Egidius (Greg of Tours)? Agapetus 535-536?]

Vortigern: 373 + 28 = 400 (HB 66); 425/426/428 (Hergest); 449 (ASC); 455 (Brynjulfson).

Saxons arrival/advent: Germanic raiders/recruits/settlers 360 (Wiki); Picts/Irish/Saxons 397; 400 (HB 66); Picts/Scots/Saxons 408; 438 (ACb); Saxons 441 (Gallic); 443 (ASC); 446; 447 (HB, AC, Evans); Hengist/Horsa/Wipped 449 (ASC); arrival Saxons 449-456 (Bede); 469 (ACb); Saxons 473 (Brynjulfson); Aelle/Cissa/Cymen/Wlencing 477 (ASC); Cerdic/Cynric 495 (ASC); Porta/Beda/Mela 501 (ASC); Stuff/Wihtgar 514 (ASC); Ida 547 (ASC).

128 yrs (Hergest) : 390-518 (Kamlesh); 425/426/428-554 (Hergest, CB, Jones); 449-577.

Ambrosius/Aurelius: 1st victory 429-450/456 (Bede); 455 (ASC, Brynjulfson); c460 (Brynjulfson); 467 ("AC", Brynjulfson); 479 (major chronicle annals).

sidus/stars/comets (Uther Pendragon) : Northampton ["422"]/441/442 / 5th cent (Idatius / Marcellinus); Halleys 451/453 (Atilla)? Valentinian 455; 498/499 (chron of Edessa / Rogerof Wendover); Encke 1500 ya / 500 ad (forsyth petroglyph)? Halleys 530/535 (Michael the Syrian / John of Ephesus)? Camlan 538 (Roger of Wendover)? "562"? "Pendragon comet 574" (Hassell)? 650 (AC); 676 (AC); 678 (ASC); Halleys / broomstar 684 (1 source of Nuremberg chronicles, Chinese); 729 (ASC); 891 (ASC); 905 (ASC); 975 (ASC); 995 (ASC); 1066 (ASC); 1097 (ASC).

Eclipses: dark days 447 (AC); sun dark 530/535 (Michael the Syrian / John of Ephesus)? sun without brightness 536 (Vandals, Procopius); sky dark 538 (Irish); solar calends Martii 538 (ASC); solar calends Julius 540 (ASC); solar 624 (AC); solar 664 (ASC); solar 733 (ASC); lunar 795 (ASC); lunar 800 & 802 & 806 (ASC); solar 807 (AC, ASC); lunar 827 (ASC); lunar 831 (AC); solar 879 (ASC).

Arthur('s battles): Draco/Ursa (Hitching); 3349 bc (Waddell); Bronze Age (Drou); Ursus 776 bc (Belgian king list); Deoartavois 47-67 ad (Cruithne king list); LAC 180 (Malcor, Infopedia); 350-650 (Morris)? 421 (CMSM); 454 (Malory); 470 (HRB); 516/518 (AC); 537/539 (AC); great victory of KA on David's day 540/640; 542 (HRB); Arthur ap Pedr 570-580; Arthur ap Bicoir Britone 620/625; Art(h)us 631-650 (Swedish); 650 (Wace, Morris); 700 (infopedia); Arthen dies 807 (AC, Evans); Alan of Brittany (Zoetropo).

Supplicius (K Arthur, HRB, Howels): Celestine 422-432 (St Patrick); Simplicius 468-483 (Riothamus); Symmachus 498-514; Sergius 689 (Cadwaladr, HRB).

Easter: 438 (McCarthy & OCroinin); 453 (AC); 626 (ASC); 634 (ACb); 640 (ASC); 655 (ASC); 661 (ASC); 665 (AC); 685 (ASC); 716 (ASC); 768 (AC); 774 (ASC).

Birthdays: Ebur; 150 (AC); Brigit 454 (AC); David 458 (AC); Gildas not later than 498 (Life of David); David not later than 514 (Life of David); Columba 521 (AC); David 540/640 (Shakespeare/Welsh); Ethelbert 552 (ASC).

Badon/Bath (yr 44 DEB, section 50/56 HB, yr 63/71/72 AC, yr 69 HB? yr 128 Hergest, yr 222 AC) : Bladud 929-909/853 bc; Halleluyah Victory 429/430 ad (Bede, Higham, wiki); 430-440 (Higham); 470 (HRB); 482 (Easter tables, McCarthy & OCroinin); 485 (Snyder, Wood); 485-520 (Wood); Cayburn 488 (me); 490s (Wood); 492/493 (Bede, Evans); 494-497 (Morris); 496/497 (Wiki); 499-511 (Brynjulfson); 500/501 (DEB, Dumville, Evans); Bieda 501; 516 (AC); 516/517/518 (Gildas, Bede, Brynjulfson); 520 (Wood); great victory of KA on David's day 540/640 (Shakespeare/Welsh); 546 (AC version); before Ida/Melgwn 547 (HB, DEB); 554 (Hergest); Baodan/Baetan/Baitan son of Mac Erca (Irish, Pestano); Bath 577; 580 (Simon Stirling); 582/586/588 (Ardrey); Queen Badda/Baddo 589/587/586; battle of Badr 624 (Koran); Pontesbury 661 (ASC, Hunt); 634 (ACb); 2nd Badon 665 (AC); Bedwin 675 (ASC, Evans-Gunther); Ceadwall 686 (ASC, me); Bereford/Hereford 735/752/756/760 (me); Brunandune/Brunanburh 937 (Ethelwerd); 940/960 (HB).

Bede jumps from 447/456 (to 565) to 596.
Series of conflicts 455-519 (ASC, Brynjulfson).
Period of minimal Saxon activity 466-73
British Recovery 473-517 (Ashe)
only landings of Saxons on the coast 488-547 (Evans)
"ASC silent on Kent" 488-565 (Evans)
gap between Bretwaldas 491-560 (ASC)
"gap in Gildas 500-550" (Carroll).
emigration of Angles & Frisians to the Continent 510-555 (Evans).
No gains gap 519-552 (ASC, Brynjulfson).
"Essex not recorded king until Aescwine 527"?
Dorset British 658-710 (ASC, Brynjulfson).

Llongborth: 501/508; 710/712 (Wiki).

Camlan (yr 22, yr 92/93, cw126) : 537 (AC); 542 (HRB); 576 (Hergest); after Arthuret (Triads).

Gildas: 421 (CMSM)? d 512 (W. of M.); to Ireland 565 (AC); wrote 546 (Habington); d 570/572 (Irish, AC).

Plagues: 537 (AC); Justinian (Procopius); 547 (AC); Gregory 590-604 (Book of Hours); Emaus 639; London 644; 664 (ASC); 682/683 (AC).

Maelgwn (yr 10, yr 146) : d 547 (AC); Mailcun 559; Coinmagil 577; 586 (Hergest); at Arthuret (DMT).

Arthuret (yr 10, yr 128/129, yr 152) : before Camlan (Triads); time of Maelgwn (DMT); 573 (AC); 593 (Hergest, CB, Jones).

Elvod 613 (ASC?); 755 (OEC).

Nennius 55 bc (HRB); 613 (ASC?); 796 (Brynjulfson, OEC); 438 + 421 = 858 (HB); 946/976 (HB); 447 + 542/547 = 989/994 (HB, OEC).


We can guess from these that Badon (1) and/or Arthur (1) must be somewhere between 420 and 599. (Badon 2 and/or Arthur 2 is in the 600s.)

Now a look at the decades of 420-599.

Arthur &/or Gildas 421 (Chron Mt St Mich)
From Patrick 421 yrs (HB)
Vortigern 426 (Hergest)
Patrick left Menevia 428 (AC)
Halleluyah Victory 429/430 (Bede)
1st victory of Ambrosius 429-450/456 (EH)
Palladius/Patrick 429/430 (ASC)
Badon 430 (Bede, Higham, wiki)
Moses Crete Xpi 431 (ASCe)
Patrick landed in Wicklow 432
arrival Patrick in Ireland 438 yrs ad (HB mss)
Easter cycle 438 (McCarthy & OCroinin).

Some have implied that Bede's Badon may match the Halleluyah Victory of Germanus 429. There doesn't seem to be much of a strong case for Badon being in the 420s-430s. The 420s/430s dates seem to be closer to the arrival or start of career or first battle of "Arthur"/"Patrick". (Patrick has several similarities correspondences with Arthur which seem to suggest that they might be the same person. Arthur's battles come immediately before or after Patrick's life in the HB of Nennius. The ASC 431 entry is very similar to Patrick's 432 event, and Patrick is compared to Moses in the HB.)

Patrick 438 yrs ad (23 x 19) (HB ms)
Badon 44 yrs from easter cycle of 438 (McCarthy & OCronin)
Euric 440
Badon 440 (Higham)
Atilla 443 (ASC)
Cadwallon 443
Martin died 444 (ASC)
444th yr (Ethelwerd)
Badon 44 yrs (Gildas)
Germanus 445
Cunedda 446
John Baptist 448 (ASC).

The 44 yrs of Gildas might be connected with the 440s. There are quite a few 440s dates that may be connected with Arthur. (Arthur has close similarities connections with Cunedda &/or Cadwallon Lawhir, and with Martin.)
John the Baptist 448 (ASC) might be connected with the first battle of Glein of Arthur, or with Patrick/"Moses" of 431/432?
The 44 yrs of Gildas might be 440-484 (Euric)?

long knives massacre 460
c460 Saxon victories in the ASC largely confined to coastal areas
Riothamus 460/470 (Sidonius, Jordanes, Greg of Tours)
Period of minimal Saxon activity 466-73
Guitolinus, Cat-Wallop ("AC", Brynjulfson) 467
Vincentius 468
4th yr + 69th yr Decius & Valerian (HB) = 72 (AC)
Badon 470 (HRB)
470 winters Romans in Britain (ASC)
4th/last battle of Vortimer 473 (Evans)
British Recovery 473-517 (Ashe)
DEB 479 (Higham).

It has been suggested that the number of slain at Badon in the HRB might be its date. From the above list we see that there is a link of the two 460 and 470 slain dates, and/or possibly the battle of Cat-Wallop and/or the 69th year of the HB may match Badon, but otherwise there doesn't seem any strong match for Badon in the 470s. There are some possible evidences of a 10 or 12 years period being connected with Arthur &/or his battles, and it is possible that battle(s) date(s) is 10-12 years out in some sources.

There is a possibility that the Cat-Gwaloph battle of Ambrosius/Aurelius & Guitolinus/Vitalinus is the same as Guinnion/Badon. The name Cat-Wallop and Embres-Gueltic might be connected with Cadwallon Lawhir "long/tall hand/arm" and with Gwallawg of Taliesin whose name might be connected with Gavael-vawr "great grasp" of the Pa Gur whose battles possibly resemble Arthur's. Cunedda's and Cadwallon's battles with the Liethali/Bethan or Gwyddyl/Wyddel/Gwyddelians are very similar to Arthur's battles. Guinnion/Guynon/Guindoin/Gurnion/Vindionon name may possibly be connected with either Gwarth Ennian (and Dinguerin/Dinguayth Guarth), or with Guitolinus/Vialinus and with Quintilianus of the HRB?

Vita Germanus 480/480s
Decius & Valerian consuls 480/529 (HB, Wiki)?
12 yrs + 69 yrs = 81 yrs (HB)?
start of Arthur's battles 482 (Evans)
Badon 482 (McCarthy & OCroinin)
Benedict shone in world 482 (ASC)
Pope Felix 3 was 43 yrs old in 483
Ambrosius 83 yrs old (Brynjulfson).
Brendan born 484 (Brewer's)
Euric 484 [44 yrs links, link with Riothamus].
DEB composed 484 (Higham)
84 yrs easter cycle (McCarthy & OCroinin)
3 futile/frivilous battles Triad 84
Badon 485 (Snyder, Wood)
Glein 486 (Wiki)
454 yrs (Malory) "= 487 ad".
Eldol beheads Hengist (HRB), Hengist died 488 (ASC, Evans, Cooper)
Battle of Cayburn 488
only landings of Saxons on the coast 488-547 (Evans)
"ASC silent on Kent" 488-565 (ASC, Evans).

We can see that the 480s seems likely to match Badon for a number of possible correspondences reasons. I have thought for some time that Badon may be connected with the traditional battle of Cayburn 488. It is our tentative opinion that Badon (482) may match "Benedict shone" 482, and also Brendan born 484. Gildas' birthday and the 44 yrs of Badon in the DEB of Gildas might be connected with the 45 yrs of Columba in the 560 entry of the ASC, and this entry detail might be connected with the Benedict 482 entry of the ASC (560 minus 77 yrs (including 44 yrs) = 482). Benedict, Brendan, Arthur and Pol Aurelian de Leon all have connections with monasteries. Then it is also interesting that the Badon date of McCarthy & OCroinin may have been connected with the 84 yrs easter cycle. In the HRB Badon may possibly be connected with Eldol beheads Hengist (488)? (Though I might be wrong about Eldol. Mt Damen in the HRB may be Mt Badon.)
The 44 yrs of Gildas might be 440-484?

* Benedict & Arthur both similar monasteries links? :
Benedict father of all monks (ASC)
Arthur built/founded monasteries in some source(s)?
Beneventian monastery in Arthurian saints lives?
The 12 Monasteries list matches the 12 battles of Arthur?
Brendan oversaw 3000 monks of houses he founded.
Pol Aurelian established monasteries in Finistere. Founded monastery in an abandoned fort in city of St Pol de Leon. (Pol is linked with Ambrosius & Arthur.)
St Paulinus of Wales founded churches/chapels around Llandovery.
Arthur in the Sts Lives "is a sort of military despot who tried to plunder the property of Welsh monasteries".

Badon 490 (Sayles)
Badon 490s (Wood)
Early Gildas DEB c490 (Halsall)
start of Arthur's battles 491 (Evans)
Badon 491/492/493 (DEB/Bede, Jackson, Evans)
491-560 gap between Bretwaldas (ASC)
Patrick 492
yr 6000 betw 492 & 508
Guinnion 493 (Wiki)
Michael appeared Mt Gargano 493
Badon 494-497 (Morris)
Badon 496/497 (Wiki)
Gildas birth no later than 498 (Life of David).

Modern orthodox scholars have often favoured Badon being in the 490s. We can see from the above list that the Gargano one is the one major possible match for Badon in the 490s, and/or possibly a couple/few other candidates. Otherwise the 480s seems more likely, though a couple/few of the 490s ones are certainly noteworthy.

Badon 500 (avg, Bede, Dumville, Jackson, wiki)
Badon section 50/56 (HB).
Ebur rests 501 (AC)
Badon 501 (DEB, Evans)
Llongborth 501/508
start of Arthur's battles 506 (Evans)
yr 6000 betw 492 & 508
Patrick letter to Coroticus 508
Natanleod & 5000 slain 508 (ASC)
Benedict ascended to heaven 509 + 53 yrs = Columba 560 (ASC)
emigration of Angles & Frisians to the Continent 510-555 (Evans)
"scholars now think Badon 518 is 10-15 years too late".

"Benedict ascended" 509 might be connected with Badon 500/518.
However, it would appear from these 500s dates that Arthur's death (at Camlan "537") may match Benedict's ascent to heaven 509 and Natanleod's death 508. (Its looks possible that 537 was corruption of an original 508/509.) Arthur's and Natanleod's death may have been in the vicinity of the 'city of the legion' Richborough/Rutupi. Natanleod might be from gwledig Naw Cant Lliwed "ruler of 900 (warrior) companies", and the 5000 slain with him also may be the legion. Llongborth also might match the city of the legion (and) Richborough/Rutupi?

emigration of Angles & Frisians to the Continent 510-555 (Evans)
DEB 510-530 (Karen George)
Gildas death 512 (W. of M.)
David born no later than 514 (Life of David)
514 is the 56th yr (Ethelwerd)
DEB 515 (Sullivan)
Badon 516/518 (AC, Jackson, Evans) + 44 yrs = Columba 560 (ASC)
Cadwallon Lawhir 517
No gains gap begins 519 (ASC)
KA subdues Ireland 519.

The traditional 516 date for Badon doesn't seem to have any major match in other sources like the ASC. It seems that the date originated from some mis-calculation of years dates of Badon (section 50/56 HB, yr 44 DEB, yr 63/71/72 AC, yr 69 HB? yr 128 Hergest) and/or of Gildas (44 yrs).

Badon 520 (Wood)
Columba born 521 (AC)
Padarn to Ireland c 524
Dionysius 527 (Playfair).

DEB 530 (Sullivan)
Calendar changed from AUC to AD 530-532
paschal yr of Dionysius Exiguus 532 (EH, Florence)
532 yrs (19 x 28) luni-solar cycle
Patrick's disciple Mochta died in 535/537
Cerdic dies 534 (ASC) [at Badon (HRB)]
Benedict died 536 (Matt of Westminster)
Camlan 537 (AC)
eclipse calends Martii 538 (ASC).
Great Victory of Arthur on St Dave's day 540/640;

The only one great possible match for Badon (or Guinnion) in the 530s is the calends of Martii 538 of the ASC. The two ASC entries of 538 and 540 might match the battles of Guinnion/Dover (St Martin) and Legions/Richborough (St Julius)? Wihtgar(asburh) might possibly be connected with Guinnion & Dover? Otherwise the 530s dates seem more connected with death like Camlan rather than with Badon. Camlan 537 (& Benedict 536) is possibly a corruption from an original Natanleod slain 508 & Benedict ascended 509. (Is this 30 years out from difference between Christ's birth and passion date?) Nennius' and/or Gildas' dates might have a link with Dionysius Exiguus era?

Great Victory of Arthur on St Dave's day 540/640;
eclipse calends Julius 540 (ASC);
542 yrs to Edmund (HB);
Camlan 542 yrs ad (HRB);
Columba: pestilence 544.
Wihtgar died 544 (ASC)
Badon 546 (AC version)
Gildas wrote DEB 546 (Habington)
547 yrs (HB);
Ida, Bebbanburh 547 (ASC);
Maelgwn & plague 547 (AC);
548 yrs Darius - Christ (HB)
Gildas contemporary of Ainmire 548-551 (Evans).

The only major possible candidate for Badon of 540s is Bebbanburh in the 547 entry of the ASC. Nennius said Arthur's battles were down until time of Ida (547). Bebbanburh is similar to *Badon-byrig, and Bebba is similar to Badda of "Badda's Fort".

Gildas contemporary of Ainmire 548-551 (Evans)
"Sarum" 552 (ASC)
Badon 554 (Hergest) [after "Severn" (HRB)]
Nynnio ap Erb c 555-595
Beranbury 556 (ASC)
Badon section 50/56 (HB).

Columba moves to Iona 560/565 (ASC)
Badon section 50/56 (HB).
Columba moves to Britain 562 (AC)
Columba & Loch Ness monster 565
Gildas moves to Ireland 565 (AC)
great battle Mon(a) 565
Gildas contemp of Ainmire 566-569
Baodan/Baetan/Baitan son of Mac Erca 566/567 in Irish
Wibbandune 568 (ASC)
synod of victory 569 (AC)
Santa Maria de Bretona was a Celtic bishopric from ca569 (Galicia).

The one great possible match for Badon in the 560s is great battle Mon(a) 565, and/or Wibbandune 568 (ASC) and the synod of victory 569 (AC). Ethelbert has similarlites with Arthur or Uther. Osla was at Badon in Dream of Rhonabwy, and Oslake was at Wibbandune in the ASC. Columba's details of the 560 entry of the ASC seemingly may be linked with the 44 yrs of Gildas. Columba means "dove" and may be linked with white Guinnion/Dover?

570 men from Linnuis at Catraeth
Bedcanford 571 (ASC)
Gildas died 570/572 (AC)
Arthuret 573 (AC)
Gildas conemp of Ainmire 573-576
Brendan died 574/577 (AC)
3 days siege Ynys Metcaut 575 (Wiki)
Pol Aurelian died 575
end of peace that followed Badon 577
Dyrham/Bath 577 (ASC).

The 3 days siege Ynys Metcaut 575 has a similarity with Badon, but otherwise there is no major candidate for the battle of Badon in 570s and the dates are more like decline/defeat/death dates. The "Bath" of 577 might possibly be Badon site (not date) but if it is it is only a later retaking of the site by Saxons. Three of the sites in the 571 entry have names similar to 3 of Arthur's battle sites (Bassas, Guinnion, Legions), and the 577 sites might also be battle sites too so that we may possibly have the 9 battle sites of the HB in the two ASC entries?

Abbreviations:
AA = Ambrosius Aureli(an)us / Aurelius Ambrosius
AC = Welsh Annals
ASC = Anglo-Saxon Chronicle
CB = Cambro-Briton
CMSM = Chronicle Mt St Michel
DMT = Descent of the Men of the North
DEB = Gildas
EH = Bede
KA = "(King) Arthur"
HB = Nennius
HRB = Geoff of Monmouth
LAC = Lucius Artorius Castus
OEC = Old English Chronicles
W. of M. = William of Malmesbury
wiki = wikipedia
Yr(s) = year(s)



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 21-Jan-2018 at 07:16