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ethnic minorities!!!

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: ethnic minorities!!!
    Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 07:09
Temujin whats a Sinti?


IIRC, they are basicly an offshoot of the Roma who have married into German bloodlines, but have retained a seperate identity somewhat. Traditionaly a mobile nomadic group, nowadays most of them have taken to a more sedentary from of living.
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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 11:43
I agree MixcoatlToltecahtecuhtli, half the things we today know are so called "useless". If you know your native language/culture then that makes you somebody and gives you a certain identity. Without that, you are just a piece of the mass that the western culture consists of. Sure, you have a different character, personality, likings, but still you are one of the mass. Holding on to tradition and fighting your ass off to maintain them is the most honorable thing one can do, rather than join the flatterings of the so called "advanced culture of the west". There is a weird chase of success and fortune (that drags people away form their native cultures) in the "real western world", which is the foniest of them all.  
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 12:32
Meh, there is no such thing as a singlar monolothic 'western culture', its just a nice feel good thing made by dumping dozens of distinct, albeit similar cultures under one umbrella.
There is no 'mass', hell, even the standard symbols of 'western mass culture', fashion, music etc, vary from country to country. They maybe indulging in the same persuits, but the exact spcifics are different and localised, just as they've always been.

Most people keep much of their 'native' (how much of it is truely native) cultures, traditions and outlook and blend it with new influences that they come accross within their lives, a constant process of defusion that has neither begining nor end, as it always has been through out history.
People preserve their culture through keeping it alive, keeping it vibrant, constantly reforming and reshaping it.

I've seen what the static approach to cultural preservation does, i give you the Welsh 'national' costume, once a vibrant and varied set of regional takes on a similar theme, in part defined by trational materials and production techniqes, was turned into a static concept, a 'national' costume (nothing more than the fashion of the day, albeit a somewhat uniquley Welsh one), it became a museum relic in no time, as people sought on the one hand to adopt to chaning times, and on the other to keep that image of the mythical static 'national costume'.
It would have been better if they hadn't have bothered, the influence would have remained, and would have been blended into each new set of fashions and style that came with the years, continuosly reinventing itself, sure, it would look different, but it would atleast be genuinly alive, unlike the museum relic, nothing more than a fancy dress costume worn a few times a year by kids.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 13:38

yes, Sinti and Roma is the official name of the German gypsy minority ere.

 

what exactly is culture? assimilation for me means merging of a new element into an old to form a new one, but especially Kalevipoeg sees to talk about absorbtion, that is (forced) submerging of a culture into a (larger) one were the old cultural elements got destroyed instead of added.

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  Quote Dawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 14:04

Originally posted by Cywr


Most people keep much of their 'native' (how much of it is truely native) cultures, traditions and outlook and blend it with new influences that they come accross within their lives, a constant process of defusion that has neither begining nor end, as it always has been through out history.
People preserve their culture through keeping it alive, keeping it vibrant, constantly reforming and reshaping it.

That is very true. And in the case of imigrints it has an even stranger affect. Our family still keeps many of the Norwegian traditions relating to holidays etc. I can speak almost fluent Norwegian but here is the catch because a language (and culture) is ever changing the traditions and language is not that of todays Norway but rather that of 40-50 (or longer) years ago as my father and gradparents remember them . The language and practices have changed as such things always do  so does that mean we are upholding our culture and heiratige or are we devoloping something differant, can you really say that it is Norwegian?     

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 14:28

I agree with Tobodai. Some languages die from time to time. C'est la vie.

Languages are intended for the humans to understand each other, not to divide them. I hate English but if it serves me to communicate with you, it is OK.

My experience is that, when a minority is given a right they tend to destroy the formerly "big" language. I have been said that the destiny of Russian-speaking people in Baltic countries is sad.

In Spain we have no ethnic minorities. The closest are gitanos (gypsies). They are very few and are dissappearing as they attend school. His language (not very spred at any moment) is almost lost, though they have some words on their own. Some of them has passed to Spanish.

It is spoken Catalan in Catalonia (50% population has it as mother tongue), North Valencia and Balearic Islands. In these two regions the language is called "valenciano" and "mallorqun".

In Galicia most of the population understand Galician though most of people mixes it with Spanish.

In Pays Basque the basque language was almost dissappeared but its learning in school and the subsidies have turned it to life. Most of the population learns it at school but only a minority has it at mother tongue.

These languages were oppressed under Franco regime (although a Basque Academy was operating) but during democracy they are co-official in their territories. Currently Spanish - speaking people is claiming they are oppressed by non-Spanish speaking.



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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 15:06

According to the Treaty of Lausanne signed in 1923, the official minorities in Turkey are the Greeks, Armenians and Jews/Hebrews. The un-official minorities (though how much of a "minority" they are is disputed) are the Kurds, Zazas, Circassians (a general term used for everyone who comes from Caucassia), Arabs, Laz, Georgians, Turkics (Tatars, Kyrgyz, Kazaks, etc), Balkan immigrants (Bosnians and Albanians), Assyrians and others. At least 50-55 million people in Turkey are ethnic Turks, but how much of them are real Oghuz Turks isn't clear. According to the Turkish Constitution, every citizen of Turkey is considered "Turkish" (like American citizens being "Americans" or Chinese citizens being "Zhongguoren" ["People of the Middle Kingdom]) and have the same rights (at least, theoriticially).

Unlike in Spain, Iran, Britain or China, Turkey doesn't have any autonomous regions for ethnic minorities because 1) Turkey is a strongly centralised nation-state; 2) only Kurds and Arabs form the majority in some areas of Turkey, the other un-official minorities are living in a sea of Turks (though there are homogeneous Circassian, Tatar and Laz villages here and there). Besides, non-Turkish names aren't allowed (as I read in the Milliyet newspaper yesterday, a Turkish Buddhist requested his name to be changed into a Sanskrit title but he was not allowed - according to the "reform packet" launched two years ago, non-Turkish names are allowed, but in theory for now) so you can't find out who is an ethnic Turk and who isn't. Ethnic Turks and non-Turks all live together, especially in the larger cities (though the situation in the East is different) and most people give importance to Turkishness rather than ethnic identities (which is considered quiet weird in Turkey).

I think the biggest threat to the unity of the Republic of Turkey comes from the Kurds who form the majority in some Eastern cities; or many, more correctly. The terrorist acts, called "liberation movement" by many people (the type I dislike; PKK's acts are really disgusting), of PKK, are still continuing in Eastern Turkey and Turkey has quiet a large Kurdish population. However, the majority of Turkish Kurds aren't in favor of separation from Turkey, most of them are traditional Shfi Sunnis who dislike nationalism and there are (at least) some Kurds who consider them more Turkish than Kurdish (check the thing I wrote above: ethnic identities aren't given much importance in Turkey in general).

Then there are also the Alevis: the Alevis are a branch of Shiite Muslims but they are very different from classical Shiites. Most Alevis are ethnic Turks but there are also many Arabs and Kurds who share the Alevi belief. I wonder the Alevis should be considered a religious minority (there are also Protestan Armenians, Christian Turks, etc).

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  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 16:30
Originally posted by Catn

I agree with Tobodai. Some languages die from time to time. C'est la vie.

Languages are intended for the humans to understand each other, not to divide them. I hate English but if it serves me to communicate with you, it is OK.

My experience is that, when a minority is given a right they tend to destroy the formerly "big" language. I have been said that the destiny of Russian-speaking people in Baltic countries is sad.

In Spain we have no ethnic minorities. The closest are gitanos (gypsies). They are very few and are dissappearing as they attend school. His language (not very spred at any moment) is almost lost, though they have some words on their own. Some of them has passed to Spanish.

It is spoken Catalan in Catalonia (50% population has it as mother tongue), North Valencia and Balearic Islands. In these two regions the language is called "valenciano" and "mallorqun".

In Galicia most of the population understand Galician though most of people mixes it with Spanish.

In Pays Basque the basque language was almost dissappeared but its learning in school and the subsidies have turned it to life. Most of the population learns it at school but only a minority has it at mother tongue.

These languages were oppressed under Franco regime (although a Basque Academy was operating) but during democracy they are co-official in their territories. Currently Spanish - speaking people is claiming they are oppressed by non-Spanish speaking.

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 10:21

Gachupilandia te agradece la bienvenida.

Un saludo

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  Quote Umbrella Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 11:26
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Almost one-half of Iran's population are the Persians and it can be said thatthe other half are the minorities!!


The half you are talking about are the fars, The ancient Persians as well as the Medians were from/around the Zagros mountains, wouldnt you say ?
lol, admin you idiotic ethnonym-hijacker, Zagros is the land of REAL Persians and REAL Medians you filth , HISTORY tells us that you fars cheuvenist, you'll very SOOOORRYY scumm, now go and f**k yours
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 11:58

Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

Grrrr......, Tobodai. Everything in life doesn't have to be useful in western terms. Assimilation is an unstopable force, but you can't do it on purpose as it is happening with various Finno-Ugrian tribes. There are about 23 million Finno-Ugrians in existance. Nearly 90% of Finno-Ugrians compose the Finnish and Hungarian population who are OK, but just think of the other 10% who are losing their cultural heritage and i can't accept that as "process". The bleedin Russians piss me off with their superioroty politics. They have the entire chemical elements in the world right in Siberia and oil reserves up to their necks, but still they are one of the poorest people in Eurasia. And now they purposely assimilate my tribesmen, and you say its just a standby process. NO. ethnicities losing their heritage shouldn't be looked as an inevitable or unimportant process. So is falling of a nation an inevitable process, but that isn't a standby process.

 

hey hey hey, Im not for people that think their superior and asserint policies to make it so, I only like assimilation if its voluntary by all parties.  And Cywr is right, its a two way street.  When Columbus sailed to America he used a ship with a compass and rudder, from China, and a numerical system from India.

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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 12:11
Well Estonians form around 65-68% in Estonia and the rest are mostly, around 30%, Russians. Are those threatening percentages to anyone if it would be in any of your countries? I don't want to blow the horn but in world terms, are those numbers a threat to a certain ethnicity (Estonians)?
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 12:20
What happens happens, immigration is a sighn that your country is appealing and is a natural pattern of human history.  So what if the US becomes majority hispanic?  Its still the same damn country.
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  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 14:09
Originally posted by Catn

Gachupilandia te agradece la bienvenida.

Un saludo

 Gachupin    hace mucho que no escuchaba esa palabra.

  Eres Castellano o Andaluz ?

  yo vivo en la Guadalajara americana.

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 13:20
Yea, assimilation if voluntary is a good thing, but when forced upon a people....wouldn't you say that's a type of cultural genocide?
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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 13:04

Well the Russians didn't come here threw natural effects of immigration. They were kinda brought in by the soviets and stayed here after the USSR collapsed because Russia was too poor. Serves the commies right to be poor alone for a while.

I don't think you can compare Estonia with the US Tobodai. The US isn't in it's ideology and never has been a country for a single ethnicity/ nationality. An American can be a white, a Spanic, a Chinese, a black, but Estonia has been our land for thousands of years and we have lived here solo. I mean that North America can't be assimiliated by anyone because it doesn't belong to anyone for its true owners have been massacred a long time ago. Now white Americans complain that Mexicans and blacks might make the better part of the continents population soon (maybe they do now i don't really know) but how can you bring such an argument when the entire continent belongs to noone. It would be like the Britts complaining about the Indian population assimilating them in the 19th century India. Just silly. You can't compair and bring your view into a part of the world where we with right may oppose assimilation and not think of it as a "normal" process. There is no ethnicity who owns the USA today (except the none existant indians) and Americans can't in no way say that assimilation happens when it happens as there is no sense of a one single nation there, in the 20th century atleast. I don't want to be the USA with all sorts of different ethnicities running around assimilating my already vanishing nation. I am not a racist or anything but there is no argument an American can make about assimilation as they are already assimilated threw most races. 

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2004 at 14:54
It is sad, but at the same time, countries with many many minorites such as Russia who are in a poorer state, can ill afford to run dual or in its case multiple education systems.  The sme problem exists in Iran, but the people there have managed to pretty much hold on to their cultural heritage, and that is some achievment especially when you have an intolerant Islamist government, who just wishes for everyone to speak the language of the Koran and practice the culture of Islam.
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  Quote Chono Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2004 at 16:03

I'm sad to say that two thirds of all mongols in the world are ethnic minorities. It's all the more sad that they sacrificed their freedom to give the other third, us, a shot. But knowing this, unites us and gives us strength and cause.

I'd suggest the estonians to first make the estonian public aware of what's happening in Russia (scary things are happening there, even to such large minorities with their own republics like buriats and kalmyks, I know) and try to establish a cultural connection to those who would identify themselves as ugro-finn. In such situation the moral help is most important. There is a big difference between feeling yourself as a member of a small, primitive and irrelevant tribe in woods and feeling shared identity and sincere support of a succesful independant nation-state like Estonia.

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  Quote Ptolemy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2004 at 16:41
There are some Syriac speaking towns in western Syria and Coptic speaking towns in Upper Egypt. These populations are quite small compared to the Christian population in which they represent, and for the most part, the language is kept alive by their respective churches.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2004 at 02:26

Has any of yous heard about Benjamin Lee Whorf?

The importance of different languages to the perception of reality is in the middle of his "linguistic relativity theory".

Today there are two theories (propositions) connected to the original theory:

"The Whorfian hypothesis of the language-cognition relationship actually contains two propositions which are best analyzed separately. The first maintains that the world is differently experienced and conceived in different language communities. This proposition has come to be known as linguistic relativity. The second proposition goes beyond the simple statement that there are differences in cognition associated with differences in language to claim that language actually causes these differences. This doctrine of linguistic determinism is essentially a conception of a one-way causal sequence among cognitive processes with language playing the directing role."

 

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