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ethnic minorities!!!

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Kalevipoeg View Drop Down
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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: ethnic minorities!!!
    Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 15:34

In Estonia there was the fourth Finno-Ugrian conference this August. It really got me thinking about my "tribal brothers" and their situation. I then, a few days later, saw a program relating to the conference showing the state of the Vadja people in the Russian Federation who are the closest people to us Estonians linguistically. That was the one show that nearly made me cry. The people who knew how to speak Vadja language were all senior people while the youngs were all Russian speakers and sending their kids into Russian speaking schools. When an elderly women walking in her ancestral graveyard started crying and damning the "young kids who will drag them to hell", meaning their kids who are losing an entire cultural heritage because they need to speak Russian to suceed in anything and that noone remains true to their roots. That struck my heart in two. Finno-Ugrians except Finnish, Estonians or Hungarians have it going bad. Russia keeps Russian as a main language in many areas where certain Finno-Ugrian tribes live and keep the newspapers Russian, schools Russian and have nearly no policies on the favor of the minorities. The minorities mostly live in a small area where they have little villages and their hunting or fishing grounds but Russia still has no mercy for them in any way, bringing Russians into their lands and assimilating them into their culture and language. Russiafication (which has been a Russian policy since the middle ages for nearly every minority) is going on in Russia and noone cares which is so damn sad. I don't know what to do for the minorities in Russia and that sucks.

Thats all i wanted to say, talk about minorities in your country or whatever you want. Assimilating an entire ethnical minority without trying to stop it is an atrocity.   

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 15:51
The disappearance of minorities/languages is indeed a very sad thing. Not only their languages disappear, but also their entire culture. It's estimated that at the end of the century 90% (!) of all languages will be disappeared. Countries that oppress minorities are the modern barbarians.

The only ethnic minority in the Netherland are the Frisians. An estimated 500.000 people (3% of the Dutch population) speak Frisian. Furthermore there are about 100.000 Frisians living in Germany. In Frisia (Frysln in Frisian, Friesland in Dutch) Frisian has the same rights as Dutch, and it's educated on schools. Still the number of Frisian speaking people declines, luckily not very drastically.
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 19:37
Yes it is really sad, many Ethinic minorites are dying in China too, few manchus can speak their old languages

The ethnic minorites in the americas are also in grave danger, although there has been a resurgence in intereest in Native Culture in the UNITED STATES.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 23:22
Theres a great quote by Thomas Sowell I dont have it exact, something like "cultures are not museum peices to be looked at by an appreciative intelligensia, cultures are the working fundamentals of everyday life and if a differing culture with a more efficient wor ethic or a better chance of success comes along, who is to blame people who drop their quaintness in exhange for sucess?"  Oh and before any idiot says anything, Thomas Sowell is himself an ethnic minority!
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  Quote John Doe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 02:07
Everyone should read Thomas Sowell, he is a black man not afraid to tell the truth.
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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 02:19

That is true, the superior culture will assert its will and assimilate, displace, or destroy other weaker ones.

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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 05:24
What is a superior culture? The one which believes himself better of his neighbouring culture and has bigger guns and comforts to lure them into their way of living. I don't call Russians as superior cultural beings than the Komi, Neenets, Eenets or Mari peoples because they can bully them around. It seems that todays "superior" cultures are the ones who themselves have no culture left and have forgotten its importance. Money is becoming todays culture in those countries.
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 05:52
Money is becoming todays culture in those countries.


Which is why its so succesfull. Though i wouldn't be fooled by the apparent 'lack of culture' its just bland precisely because its a one size fits all consumer thing, the real culture is hiden away, its not in your face.


Linguistic minorities in the UK include Scots Gaelic speakers, Kernaw (Cornish), Manx, and Welsh, the later beeing the largest group.
Manx is virtualy dead, Cornish is making a slight comeback, Scots Gaelic has a few tens of thousand speakers, Welsh speakers make up just under 30% of the population of Wales according to the last census, the dacade 1991-2001 saw the first increase in this percentage for about a century, a trend for the future maybe.
In addition to that there are the languages of the migrants from all over the world who have moved here, its estimated that some 300 languages are spoken in London.
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 07:39

We have a Sami population of about 20,000 or so, they have a sort of "parliament" for themselves and - I think - have schools in their own language. They do teach it at least. Don't know very much about their situation, but them making ludicrous demands of land usage rights doesn't make it easier to go along with the about 800,000 ethnic Swedes who live in the same area.

 

Then there's a million and a half too, a lot of them Finns.



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  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 10:14
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

We have a Sami population of about 20,000 or so, they have a sort of "parliament" for themselves and - I think - have schools in their own language. They do teach it at least. Don't know very much about their situation, but them making ludicrous demands of land usage rights doesn't make it easier to go along with the about 800,000 ethnic Swedes who live in the same area.

 

Then there's a million and a half too, a lot of them Finns.

There are 17 000 "real" smi, but if you include us who have partly smi origin then there are well over 25 000. Most land rights are really about reindeer pastures. Sure some demands are ludicrous, but then it's from the reindeer herders. Of 17 000 smi in Sweden only 2500 are reindeer herders - so they can't by far represent all smi. My ancestors have never been reindeer herders, and of course I get irritated every time I come across claims such as "The Smi is a reindeer herding people" or "Reindeerkeeping is essential to traditional smi culture". I think that the reindeerherding smi have too much attention - but then there's a long conflict between that minority of smi who keep reindeer and those who don't... Far to often have the rights and issues of non-reindeer herders been set aside to the benefit of the herders

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 11:28
Almost one-half of Iran's population are the Persians and it can be said that the other half are the minorities!!

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 11:34

mmmh, Germany is pretty difficult, because there's no "real" german people, just the major germanic tribes that formed the HRE and shared a similar langage...today few people speak Swabian, especially in the towns hardly any kids speak Swabian because its "uncool"

the "real" minorities are the Sorbs of the Lausitz, the only native Slav people that were not completely assimilated, though their number is small and steadily decreasing. then we have a special minority, the Turks which now make up 3% of the population of Germany. on airports I noticed many signs are in German, English and Turkish, so Turkish somewhat became an inofficial second langauge of Germany, though most politicians preach for assimilation and stuff, which I don't really agree with...and it won't be happen anyways to my prediction...especially when Turkey joins the Eu and (probably) more Turks will come to germany. we have Frisians too BTW, but they're not considered a minority since as I mentined before the 'Germans' aren't a homogenous people anyways and Friesians are just considered another German dialect like Saxonian or Bavarian. then we also have the "standart" minorities like Sinti and Roma as well as people from neighbouring countries that live in germany (like Danes).
that's all I think.

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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 19:17

Temujin whats a Sinti?

 

On the minority situation in the US. I think that the policy of the US has been assimilation so racial minorities don't count since they are "americans". The closest thing I think are the mexican immigrants (legal or otherwise) that dot the US. They are a large population and as being the "newest" immigration they are most represented in popular culture. However I do think our chinese population should consist of a minority culture, I don't see many outside of chinese restaurants around me, and the one's in the resturaunts haven't been fully assimilated into "americans".

I'm against assimilation of cultures personally. However if your all ready assimilated i've come to realize its a farce to try and regain your roots since all your doing is created a new ethnic group. I feel that any Vadja youth that try to regain their heritage will really only be created a neo-Vadja culture.

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  Quote guarddiva87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 19:49
It is definatly a sad thing when one ethnicity gets assimilated into another. This happened a lot in America with the Native American tribes. Some of them are still around, but they all speak English and very few know their tribe's language. Its one of those topics that can make anyone sad.
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  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 21:43

 

  Down here in Mexico, 90% of the population is what the spaniards called Mestizo, but not only on the racial mix between native americans and Spaniards, but with negroes ( thats the real word applied to the african slaves and not a racist term as feared to use in the USA ), chinese, jews and other middle eastern people.

  The other 10 percent is pure blood native.

  The spanish is the official language and the second official language is Nahuatl since 1989. I hope one day, the Mayan lanaguage will be considered as an official language as well. 

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 00:11

Originally posted by guarddiva87

It is definatly a sad thing when one ethnicity gets assimilated into another. This happened a lot in America with the Native American tribes. Some of them are still around, but they all speak English and very few know their tribe's language. Its one of those topics that can make anyone sad.

 

Why is it sad?  You people are all exactly as I predicted, wanting to keep things around like its in a museum for your own personal amusement.  Knowing a Native American language is about as usefull as being able to see fine and knowing how to read braile.  Cultural assimilation, globalization, its not new, its not unnatural, its a fact of life thats been going on since the Sumerians and everyone beneifts!

Oh and before Im called rascist remember Im part Native American here ok?  Trust me being able to converse with Mohhawk steelworkers will not serve me any purpose I can think of.

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 04:50
Got to agree with Tobo here.
Besides, assimilation is a two way street, the hosts may do their best to keep the culture 'pure', but there is always leakage.
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 04:53

founding myself agreeing with Tobodai here.

 

Originally posted by Mangudai

There are 17 000 "real" smi, but if you include us who have partly smi origin then there are well over 25 000. Most land rights are really about reindeer pastures. Sure some demands are ludicrous, but then it's from the reindeer herders.

Well, talking with people from there, there are also demands on absolute fishing and hunting rights, something that totally pisses the non-Sami inhabitants off.

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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 06:45
Grrrr......, Tobodai. Everything in life doesn't have to be useful in western terms. Assimilation is an unstopable force, but you can't do it on purpose as it is happening with various Finno-Ugrian tribes. There are about 23 million Finno-Ugrians in existance. Nearly 90% of Finno-Ugrians compose the Finnish and Hungarian population who are OK, but just think of the other 10% who are losing their cultural heritage and i can't accept that as "process". The bleedin Russians piss me off with their superioroty politics. They have the entire chemical elements in the world right in Siberia and oil reserves up to their necks, but still they are one of the poorest people in Eurasia. And now they purposely assimilate my tribesmen, and you say its just a standby process. NO. ethnicities losing their heritage shouldn't be looked as an inevitable or unimportant process. So is falling of a nation an inevitable process, but that isn't a standby process.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 07:07
Originally posted by Tobodai

Knowing a Native American language is about as usefull as being able to see fine and knowing how to read braile.


Preserving cultures and languages isn't because it's useful. The reason of preserving the culture lies in itself, cultures have intrinsic value.

Compare it with making art or playing music. That has no use too, but still it's done because art has intrinsic value.
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