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Byzantine Empire expands overseas

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Byzantine Empire expands overseas
    Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 09:12
You've just hit the jackpot for Byzantine history fans. We have quite a few around here.
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 10:33
Originally posted by Herschel

But hey, I'm just glad there are other fans of Byzantine history on the net. God only knows there's so few around the world today.


Yes indeed.  There is a good group of Byzantinists on this forum.  We need more threads by them!   Herschel, welcome to AE and please contribute, especially in the Byzantine category!  If you look through the pages of the Medieval forum, you can see all the recent Byzantine-related threads.
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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 14:24

Think about this scenario...

The late Ottoman Empire was known as "the sick man of Europe". Would the Byzantine Empire have been able to compete with the rising west if its existence were to conitnue? Would it suffer the same fate as the Ottoman Empire?

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  Quote Herschel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 16:23
It could be said that the Greek assistance to the West after the Byzantine fall actually made Europe as technologically advanced as it is now. 
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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 22:16
True, I forgot about this. The exodus of learned Greeks from the empire after its fall was one of the main catalysts of the renaissance. Perhaps Western Europe would not have grown so technologically advanced had Constantinople never fallen.
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 00:40

Originally posted by Belisarius

True, I forgot about this. The exodus of learned Greeks from the empire after its fall was one of the main catalysts of the renaissance. Perhaps Western Europe would not have grown so technologically advanced had Constantinople never fallen.

It depends on what you define as "technology" in the early Renaissance / late Byzantine period.  The Byzantine emigres brough priceless manuscripts and the ability to read and copy them with them to Western Europe.  Western scholars received Greek literature that had been unavailable to them for centuries.  Among these works were ancient mathematical treatises and studies from Aristotle, Ptolemy, Pythagoras, and others.  The Byzantine teacher Manuel Chrysoloras was a mathematician and taught the subject in Italy.  Many of the Byzantine scholars were interested in philosophy (Neoplatonism and Aristotelian) and the humanities (non-scientific literature).

If the later Byzantines had made any technological advances or scientific discoveries, you would think that they would have had the sense to put these advances to good use.  I guess, due to the lack of resources to fund research and the implementation of advances, nothing really happened.  On the other hand, in the typically Byzantine tradition, scholars of the late period were more interested in theology and philosophy - see Gregory Palamas and Gemistus Plethon among others.  Great advances, or highly stylized writings, were made in these fields as the physical world of the Byzantines crumbled. 

I have always thought that the later emperors would have imported Italian knowledge of fortification building and the science of gunpowder weapons to help them in their struggle against the Ottomans.  The old Theodosian Walls could have been improved with angled bastions and artillery towers.  Nevertheless, this did not happen.  Although there is some mention of the Byzantines using cannon in the last two sieges of Constantinople (1422 and 1453), there was no actual cannon foundry in the city until after the Ottoman conquest.

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  Quote Jazz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 01:11
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

....I have always thought that the later emperors would have imported Italian knowledge of fortification building and the science of gunpowder weapons to help them in their struggle against the Ottomans.  The old Theodosian Walls could have been improved with angled bastions and artillery towers.  Nevertheless, this did not happen.  Although there is some mention of the Byzantines using cannon in the last two sieges of Constantinople (1422 and 1453), there was no actual cannon foundry in the city until after the Ottoman conquest.


Was not the problem that they could not afford any extra help?  Didn't Urban first to Constantine XI and was told that he could not pay him anything, prompting him to go to Mehmet?
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 01:45

Originally posted by jazz

Was not the problem that they could not afford any extra help?  Didn't Urban first to Constantine XI and was told that he could not pay him anything, prompting him to go to Mehmet?

Yes, you are exactly right.

As I said, the extreme lack of resources that the later emperors were faced nixed any attempt they could have made to develop new technology or import the knowledge and the technicians from elsewhere.  What few gunpowder weapons they did have most likely came from either Hungary or the Balkans.  Urban the gun engineer illustrates this; he was most likely a Hungarian Christian.

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 04:56

They had a few artilery pieces, but when they fired from the walls, the damage done to the walls (due to the recoil eccect) was far greater than the damage they caused to the enemy.

 

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  Quote Herschel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 08:17
Yea, what Yiannas said. The Byzantines were well aware of existing technology, because they were usually on the receiving end of it. It all came down to a matter of funding. The western powers in 1204  not only took away all of its possessions, but it took away its shipping/trade. Any strategic money-making location (such as Constantinople on the Bosporus)  was taken by Venice and Genoa.
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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 09:34
Hence why it was a sound investment to reunite with the Grand Comnenus in Trebizond which was still very wealthy. Either that put whatever you have left into creating a strong navy with which to drive off the Venetians and Genoans. It is just so mind-boggling how the Greeks, a people with such a long maritime history, just abandoned the seas. This has been said before, but it vexes me to no end.
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 09:45

They did not abandoned it, they were pushed out due to the integral deficiencies of the Byzantine Empire, which was fast to exchange its long-term prosperity for near-term benefits. E.g. they would buy from the Venetians a service (e.g. to land a force at some Dalmatian coast or to attack a city) and pay with e.g. tax-free commerce in the ports of eastern Aegean. That became a practice that was expanded to the Genovese and other Italians and led to the destruction of the local merchants and shipowners to the benefit of the Italians and mainly the Venetians & Genovese.

 

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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 12:51

Originally posted by Yiannis

They did not abandoned it, they were pushed out due to the integral deficiencies of the Byzantine Empire, which was fast to exchange its long-term prosperity for near-term benefits. E.g. they would buy from the Venetians a service (e.g. to land a force at some Dalmatian coast or to attack a city) and pay with e.g. tax-free commerce in the ports of eastern Aegean. That became a practice that was expanded to the Genovese and other Italians and led to the destruction of the local merchants and shipowners to the benefit of the Italians and mainly the Venetians & Genovese.

The concessions to the Italian maritime republics were a big detrement to the future of native Byzantine commerce and the survival of its navy.  However, in a way the Empire did abandon the seas in the later period.  Basil II's imperial treasury was squandered by his successors, who concentrated more on political rivalries at home and allowed the navy to fall into disrepair.  The total lack of a functional navy was a problem that Alexius I had to face when he came to power.  Along with the hiring tons of mercenaries to fill the ranks of the exhausted Byzantine army, he had to hire on the Venetians as a navy. 

John II and Manuel I Comnenus built the fleet back up and the Byzantine navy saw some action in the wars against the Normans and off the coast of Palestine and Egypt during the Second and Third Crusades.  However, the Angeli emperors allowed the navy to once again decay and by the time the Venetian fleet sailed into the Golden Horn in 1203, the only thing that protected Constantinople by sea was the great boom chain across the waterway.  Finally, I think it was either Andronicus III or IV Palaeologus who disbanded what was left of the Byzantine fleet in order to free up the funds to pay the marauding Catalan Company.

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 14:55
Ah the Catalans... the best business deal to go sour.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 22:15
Yes it was Andronicus II who disbanded what was left of the navy. We should also take note that much of their legislation was almost discouraging to the pursuit of enterprise. The sheer bureaucratic mess of restrictions, duties, levies etc which were placed on Byzantine merchants but not on foreign merchants make the Byzantine government look like one of the most commerce-unfriendly in history at times.
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 23:48
 Unruly mercenaries that cost a fortune at the expense of the navy (which is now effectively non-existant) and they then proceed to tear what little territory you have left to pieces, deal of the century i'd say.
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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 12:24
True they were unruly, but they were surprisingly well-behaved until their leader was assassinated by the emperor. Well, relatively well-behaved. They were inflicting decisive defeats on the Turks, and had things gone according to business, the Catalans could have retaken Asia Minor for the Byzantines.
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 12:46

 The fighting ability of the Catalans is something I certainly wont dispute, they appear to have been thoroughly brilliant soldiers, so few in number aswell which makes many of their victories even greater.

 The assassination of Roger de flor was obviously going to enrage the Catalans, but they were mercenaries how long where they going to play to the empires tune before looking to their own interests? They must have seen an opportunity to create a small Catalan empire in Asia Minor, the last thing Byzantium needed was another potential enemy.

 I'm wondering though, how would anybody else have dealt with the Catalan problem? you cant get rid of them through force, you cant buy them off because your pretty much bankrupt by now and cant just hope the problem goes away these guys want paid and terirtory of their own.

 If the Catalans could be controlled theyd of been indespensible, I cant help but think if only theyd been around a century or so earlier.

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 13:08

Perhaps when they had fulfilled their use, continue using them in suicide situations. If they are not annihilated completely, then they would be weakened enough for the main Byzantine army to wipe them enough.

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  Quote Herschel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 15:19
The problem was they kept demanding higher and higher pay. Even if they were lowered in numbers they are were always a strain on the Byzantine treasury.
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