Byzantine Empire expands overseas

Count Belisarius, if you would like to critique Goblin Monkey's analysis of the new Byzantium and its interaction with Portugal in the context of the hypothetical situation, please do.  Otherwise, there is no need to go back and forth with these little one-liners.  Thanks.

The Byzantine Empire would more likely be wanting to reconquer it's Anatolian and Balkan heartlands rather then going on wild mercantilist adventures in the New World. Even if it did avoid the 4th crusade and the fragmentation of the Empire, it would be exhaustive enough just survive in it's strategic position, no matter how strong. Perhaps the Eastern Romans could have survived until the Modern Age, eventually evolving into a Democratic Hellenic Nation-State.

I am also sure that the Byzantine empire would like to have control of Jerusalem as well, and retake Anatolia and possibly all of the Middle East. It would have been really interesting. They could have even eclipsed the British empire, wow I never thought about this ever happening.

Thanks for the reply, BE. I've been trying to reply to your PM for the past week. Whenever I click the "send" button, the All Empires servers just stall for minutes without sending the message. I wrote, and re-wrote, the message about three different times on three different days. I spent about 20 minutes each time, yet the message is always lost. :(

Edited by Herschel - 13-Aug-2007 at 00:12

I agree with Akolouthos that was most enjoyable to read Herschel.

This is my interpretation of a Byzantine overseas empire.

In this alternate timeline, the point of divergence from our own timeline begins after the ravages of the civil war of the early 14th century (1321 - 1328).  Byzantine territory is now firmly set in southeastern Europe, around Thrace, southern Macedonia, Epirus, Thessaly, and Morea. Only minor holdings in Anatolia remain and they include the major cities of Nicaea, Nicomedia, Smyrna, and Heraclea Pontica; Philadelphia is still nominally Byzantine, but is basically under self-rule. This is the setting of our diminishing empire. It is surrounded on all sides by powerful, youthful empires: by the Ottomans in NW Anatolia, Bulgaria to the North, Serbia to the West, and the Latin states that control the southern Aegean Sea. Whatever, it�s with these remaining territories that the Byzantine Empire stage their remarkable turnaround and develop into a naval and commercial empire.

Andronicus III Palaeologus was to be the emperor that would set the Empire on its course towards prosperity. Ironically, it would also be his reign that would see some of its greatest losses, shedding vital territory to nearby enemies. In 1329, Andronicus set up a panel of four judges, termed �Universal Justices of the Romans,� who would combat corruption  from within. After the long and devastating civil war that lasted an entire decade, this became a normalizing force, restricting the power of the aristocracy who, as with the 11th century aristocracy, were a large cause of Byzantine disintegration. In the same year Emperor Andronicus also constructed a moderately sized navy. From small beginnings, this navy would immediately begin the re-conquest of North-Aegean islands from the Genoese. It would also be the key to his successful defense of the costal cities in northwest Anatolia, which in our timeline were lost in the early 1330�s. I have no imagination what-so-ever, so you�ll have to come up with your own little back story as to how Nicaea, Nicomedia, and Smyrna survive; but the point is they remain intact with the Byzantine Empire, allowing it to control the Marmara Sea, and thus, Black Sea trade. 

It is with Byzantium�s European possessions, however, where most land will be lost. Stefan Uros IV Dusan of Serbia will remove from the empire Epirus, Albania, Thessaly, and the Vardar river area. In the future he would be crowned Emperor of the Serbs and Greeks. For now though, Andronicus grudgingly accepts things as they are, and builds up a power base in Thrace and the Rhodope mountains (which will supply most of the timber for a growing navy in the future) of southern Bulgaria. Thessalonica becomes the western-most frontier city to Serbia�s new empire. In this timeline, Serbia will retain control of Epirus, Albania, and the Vardar region. Thessaly will mutate into a Greco-Vlach state which will go onto capture Athens and become a minor power for a couple of centuries. In any case, things in southeastern Europe are at a standstill as each state is only powerful enough to control their own territories; alliances are made and broken, wars begin and end, and no state seems to be able to break out and dominate the others. By the way, this interlude also gives a respite to Byzantium�s woes, and it is allowed to progress economically and politically. Events such as the Zealot riots and the second civil war are to be butterflied away. This is a cheap move on my part - not explaining things in more detail. I realize that and apologize.

To understand Byzantium�s recovery in the late 14th century with this timeline, one must look to the events which are taking place in Anatolia. In this timeline, the Greeks are able to hold off any Turkish invasion of Europe, thanks in part to the rejuvenated navy. It is my reasoning that Orthodoxy was able to flourish the way it did into the modern period thanks to the Millet system of the Ottoman Empire. That is why Anatolia was thoroughly Turkish even by the 14th century. Ottoman expansion into Europe forced the Sultans to adopt the Millet system for internal security as they conquered millions of Christians and added them into the empire. Thus, the Greeks who remained in Anatolia past 1453 were then added into this Millet system and conversion to Islam nearly stopped at this point; their descendents would be the 1.5 million Greeks who still lived in Asia Minor in the early 20th century in our timeline. Again, this is my reasoning, I could be wrong. Anyhow, without the moderating force of the Millet system, Turkification will continue as it had before, especially in devastating period where, in my timeline, the Ottomans are fighting huge wars with the Karamanid Emirate. This will cause a mass migration of Orthodox peoples towards Nicomedia, where the Byzantine emperors will begin a process of resettlement throughout the various parts of the empire. In total, 70,000 Anatolian Greeks will make the migration into Byzantine territory. With them, they will bring the knowledge of producing gunpowder, guns, and cannons. (Because they were forced by the two Turkish powers to make these weapons and fight with them in the devastating wars in Anatolia) New foundries are built in Constantinople, Adrianople, and Thessalonica. In short, the 15th century will see a rise in population and an increase in the adoption of foreign weapons technologies.

Here is a map of the East Mediterranean region in the year 1490:

Total Population: 1,250,000

Constantinople: 24,000 + 2,500 Italians
Thessalonica: 13,000 + 1,000 Italians
Nicomedia: 11,000
Adrianople: 10,000
Nicaea: 9,000
Smyrna: 8,000 + 1,500 Italians
Mystras: 4,000

The 15th century was also a time of cultural expansion. Manuel II would refound the University of Constantinople once again. This time, contacts made with new Italian thinkers would transform what would normally have been a school of religious and philosophical thought into one that cherished the civilizations of antiquity.  For the first time, the term �Hellene� has made its way from a small circle of intellectuals into the masses. Even the poor agricultural class would adopt this name for themselves. With this newfound interest in the classical world, old texts are meticulously copied and studied. The introduction of the printing press into Byzantium in the future will allow for the mass production of such works. One such work, the Indica by Arrian, would be most highly prized. It spoke of the exotic lands of India to the east.  The Indus and Ganges rivers, which were compared to the Nile and Danube rivers, would hold a certain fascination by many Greeks. India would be the land that the Byzantines most sought after - with new ship making technologies spreading from the Iberian peninsula, it would only be a matter of time before Greeks would once again settle there.

The late 15th and early 16th century would finally see the first instance of overseas expansion by the Byzantines. The first stage will be to secure territory in the Mediterranean Sea from which a larger empire can begin. Throughout the 15th century, the Byzantine Empire had made great strides in reconciliation with Western Europe. Though the Catholic and Orthodox churches were still separate entities, the animosity had been significantly lessoned due to careful diplomacy on both sides. Turkish, Arab, and Berber piracy in northern Africa and the Levant had forced the Eastern and Western cultures to combine their navies in an attempt to eradicate Muslim piracy. The Spanish Empire, which controlled much of the Mediterranean Sea at this point, was unable to wage war on the sea against the Muslims and commit resources to the New World, so in an agreement with Thomas II Palaeologus in 1512 the Spanish crown ceded Malta to Byzantium. In an attempt to create a closer link with Portugal (who was at the forefront of African exploration towards India), however, Thomas II and Manuel I of Portugal initiated a combined attack on Spanish Melilla in Northern Africa. Malta and Melilla would become great harbors and suppliers for Greek merchants and explorers on their way out of the Pillars of Hercules. This early period of exploration also brought a closer relationship between Byzantium and Portugal, the technology of the Caravel (ship) having been given to our Byzantines. Throughout the 16th century, these two countries would initiate dual-explorations and would found new colonies together. Royal marriages between these two nations would also become commonplace. (Note: I did this to allow for Byzantine/Greek Colonies in places such as Brazil, India, and SE Asia)

So this is Byzantium in the early 16th century. Trade routes to the east are stifled by various Turkic and Arab empires. However, with new shipping technologies handed to them by Portugal, as well as the rediscovery of ancient Greek geography and cartography, Byzantine exploration will push out to the Atlantic, down the coast of Africa, and up towards India and beyond.  These new lands will provide exotic spices and trade goods, incredible new flora and fauna, and above all (remember, this is still a very religious time) new converts to Christianity. New colonies in western Africa were almost always jointly controlled territories administered, by treaty, by Portuguese mayors. Also by treaty, all Christian missions to west Africans must be Catholic. Although this effectively made Byzantium the �junior partner� in this relationship, it did allow its men to learn carefully the art of sailing, how to set up and administer colonies properly, and it did bring much gold and slaves back to Constantinople. In 1530, John III of Portugal prepared the colonization of Brazil so as to prevent further French incursions in the area. This call to settle new lands was especially promising for thousands of  Greeks who had left Anatolia and were forcefully relocated by past emperors. These people would join the thousands of Portuguese people in setting up new colonies on the eastern coast of Brazil. The most successful Byzantine colony would be �New Smyrna,� located on what is now present day Maceio on the very tip of Brazil. This land would soon become huge sugar cane, cotton, tobacco, and corn plantations, bringing tremendous wealth to Constantinople and its Black Sea trade. And unlike in west Africa, Orthodox missions were allowed. Settlers began the conversion of many natives in the area, setting up many small churches. The most prized church, though, would be the Hagia Irene modeled directly from the Constantinople version of the same name.

Honestly, I�m too tired to finish this. I�ve spent a few hours at work with this and it�s time for me to wrap things up. Some events which would happen in this timeline include:

- Greek settlements in Western and Southwestern India are dense. Not just traders, but religious missionaries, peasants, and adventurers.  Greco-Indian cities develop. Byzantine architecture blends with Indian to create interesting hybrids.
- The trade of spices from SE Asia such as pepper, cloves, cinnamon, and nutmeg enrich the Byzantine diet. New world foods like tomatoes, maize, potato, and chili peppers make Constantinople a Mecca of culinary arts.
- The overseas empire is broken up piece by piece by stronger European powers over the following decades and centuries. Many trading ports remain Byzantine, even in India. Zanzibar remains a prime Spice growing region.
- Portugal regains independence from Constantinople and begins the long process of separation from their previously close ties. Byzantium shifts its external policy eastward towards a rejuvenated Russia.
- Thessaly and Attica will rejoin the Byzantine Empire. Anatolia becomes completely Turkic and Muslim, save for a few scattered cities under Byzantine protection, as well as in the region of Pontus.
- New Smyrna will fall under Portuguese sway, but will still retain its Greek/Orthodox culture.

Originally posted by Justinian They were usually almost always fighting superior opponents numerically speaking, I would think they would harken back to the romans who used the ballista on wagons for mobility.  They would develop advanced field artillery that would be for hitting opposing troops.

Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor WONDERFUL!  You have set another precedent along with Justinian for others to follow.

Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Very interesting!  The Indian intellectuals might embrace the culture once again and form a connection.  One of my history professors used to say that statues of the Buddha and of various Hindu gods appeared with classical Greek faces after Alexander.  Perhaps we'll see Indian statues with the face of John VIII Palaiologos, after the medallion fashioned by the Florentine artist Pisanello!

Lol, Im always fascinated by what Alexander and the Greek culture had done. Especially when Alexander ventured deep into the unknown. India was one of those places and I find their culture highly intertwine with each other. Farther enrichment would create an ever lasting bond between these cultures. If the Byzantines are as kind as their Macedonian ancestors, then the potential for these people to embraces each other is beyond imagination 

Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Originally posted by Kamikaze 738 Considering the geological position of the Byzantine Empire situated in the southeast corner of Europe, always confronting against the Ottomans, I dont think that they can expand anywhere besides their own neighbors. Being surrounded by the different nations, they can hardly go beyond Spain or the Red Sea. The Byzantines would mostly go expanding on land and trying to reclaim their old terrorites before they go out beyond their known shores.   Why does everyone keep missing the premise of my question?  Lately Justinian has been the only one who dares to read it accurately and to play along.

Sorry, its just that the likely scenario of a Byzantine colonization is pretty unrealistic in terms of getting to the shores of either the Americans or the Indies. It would require the nation's common enemies (mainly the Ottomans) to be utterly defeated and having regime so powerful and stable that it could launch oversea expansions. Its a mighty task considering that the empire at the time was stable (according to your scenario) but it was not in peace but surrounded by enemies that are willing to strike at a moments notice.

Now, if you want to have me give my opinion on your questions, just say so

Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor 1. Where would the Empire choose to expand to first, the Americas or the East Indies?

Again, considering the geological position of the empire... its hard to tell. But if the Byzantine would be able to retake control Egypt, I bet the Byzantines would be smart enough to finish the Seuz Canal and began trading with the Indies. They would be the first European nation to reach India as an organized expedition. That would bring great wealth to the Byzantines as many merchants and travellers would cross the Seuz Canal to reach the Far East and the Byzantines would benefit from the money they are making from ships passing through the canal and riches from India. If things are still going well in Anatolia and Syria, the Byzantines might just start some kind of prenament settlement there.

Byzantines in America is unlikely in my opinion.

Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor 2. Would the Byzantines utilize new technology such as gunpowder weapons / firearms in its conquests?

Supposely from the defeated Ottomans, which at the time had many gunpowder weapons, the Byzantine can utilize these weapons into standard arms. Actually during the late period of the Byzantine, they were pretty slow in adopting the new weapon (could be that their continous defeat against the Ottomans failed to see how effective the Ottoman firearms can be without any capture of them). So with the new weapon, they could match against the Ottomans and secure their frontiers and their colony outpost in India considering they have superior firearm against the native Indians medieval weapons/tactics.

Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor 3. Looking at other colonial powers as a model, how would the Byzantines treat the native populations and how would the natives view the Byzantines -- differently than the Spanish?

I believe that the Byzantine would try to spread their religion into the Indian population but I dont see much effect as the population were very much deep into their own religion, mainly Hinduism. Also considering that the Byzantines are kinda like the representation of the old Hellenistic Greek culture, the Indians could naturally welcome back the people that once braved the Hindu Kush and found their way into India. So the remembrance of such a culture would certainly create a unity and favourism between the Byzantine and the Indians. It was too long before they last met some 800 years ago

Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor 4. Describe what a late 16th and 17th century Byzantine colony might look like and how it would develop in its new location with limited communication with Byzantine civilization in the old empire back home.

I believe it would be very rich, bringing new wealth to the empire. The Byzantine at the time could even rival the powers of Spain and England at the time. Looking back into how Russia and many eastern countries are founded, they would be very much influenced by the Byzantine religion and culture. The connection between these nations could create a culture that flourished and prosper during the renaissance while western Europe is reforming. There would be two very powerful cultural blocks in Europe, Western Europe dominated with a science and discovery Catholicism and Protestant religion while Eastern Europe flourish with art and culture with the raising from of the Othodox religion.

Well, thats basically my opinion on your scenario. Hopefully this is enough to satisfy your needs for a good respones Tell me what you think