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Hitler's attempts to make alliance with Poland

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hitler's attempts to make alliance with Poland
    Posted: 13-Apr-2016 at 02:51
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

You're fooling yourself, Mosquito. It is a fact the Nazis considered you Slavs as inferior and on the land they wanted. Do you expect that they would suddenly have an epiphany and consider you to be better than the soil under their jack boots? It was their dream to cleanse all of the land they had planned on taking and murder or evict its people. My guess the former would have been the case, but hey you might have been lucky and pushed into Siberia or the Gobi desert.


I did present lots of evidence that before april 1939 Hitler wanted alliance with Poland. You only keep repeating yourself. Any evidence?

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


As for Hitler being loyal to those who were loyal to him, yes his secretary, Traudl Junge, describes Hitler's loyalty right to the end, the end that is when he forced them to kill themselves even when they didn't want to. Some loyalty that was. That shows him to be a backstabber right to the very end, Mosquito, and that is the creature you would have handed the lives of your people, and my guess with the same outcome.


Any examples of Hitler betraying his allies first? Did he attack Slovaks or Croats? Did he murder any Italians before Italy changed sides?

Edited by Mosquito - 13-Apr-2016 at 02:51
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2016 at 06:24
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Again as I've already told you, Mosquito, the Anti-Comintern Pact wasn't an anti-Soviet Union pact. Educate yourself, Mosquito.


Well, maybe better you educate yourself Alani:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Comintern_Pact


"In order to avoid damaging relations with the Soviet Union, the Pact was supposedly directed only against the Comintern, but in fact contained a secret agreement that in the event of either signatory power becoming involved with a war with the Soviet Union, the other signatory power would maintain a benevolent neutrality."

"Hitler also made an effort to influence the Poles into joining the Anti-Comintern Pact and spoke of his intention to settle territorial disputes between Germany and Poland. However, Poland refused Germany's terms, fearing that an alliance with Hitler would render Poland a German puppet state"

Edited by Mosquito - 13-Apr-2016 at 06:28
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2016 at 07:34
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

You're fooling yourself, Mosquito. It is a fact the Nazis considered you Slavs as inferior and on the land they wanted. Do you expect that they would suddenly have an epiphany and consider you to be better than the soil under their jack boots? It was their dream to cleanse all of the land they had planned on taking and murder or evict its people. My guess the former would have been the case, but hey you might have been lucky and pushed into Siberia or the Gobi desert.


I did present lots of evidence that before april 1939 Hitler wanted alliance with Poland. You only keep repeating yourself. Any evidence? [QUOTE]
Mosquito, it's difficult the get past the facts we already know such as the Generalplan ost. We know the Nazis had set it into motion and that it had all along included the land Poland occupies, but without the people as the Nazis considered Slavs as being inferior. We already know how the Nazis used alliances as temporary measures in order to get their own way, which I will get back to this point when answering your next question. My next piece of evidence is as follows:
[QUOTE] In order to avoid damaging relations with the Soviet Union, the Pact was supposedly directed only against the Comintern, but in fact contained a secret agreement that in the event of either signatory power becoming involved with a war with the Soviet Union, the other signatory power would maintain a benevolent neutrality.
 http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Comintern_Pact#Origins Again I will further this answering your next question.
It is also know that the Polish government didn't wish to allow the Nazis free passage in order for them to attack the Soviet Union as they had realized how Hitler's plans would put Poland at Germany's mercy for generations to come. Hitler's plans to attack the Soviet Union wasn't actually based on them being communist either, as Hitler had a hatred for Russia which he told Beck he would have attacked had they been tsarist or bolshevik, which again puts the anti-comintern pact on shaky ground. Again I will leave this to be completed on the next question of yours.

Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


As for Hitler being loyal to those who were loyal to him, yes his secretary, Traudl Junge, describes Hitler's loyalty right to the end, the end that is when he forced them to kill themselves even when they didn't want to. Some loyalty that was. That shows him to be a backstabber right to the very end, Mosquito, and that is the creature you would have handed the lives of your people, and my guess with the same outcome.


Any examples of Hitler betraying his allies first? Did he attack Slovaks or Croats? Did he murder any Italians before Italy changed sides?
OK, Mosquito, this is probably one of the easiest questions to answer, and at the same time I will complete those I said I would while answering your last question.
The answer, Mosquito, is yes. Poland was in a non-aggression pact with the Nazis. Poland didn't break this pact which was still running, but as you can see, and I have already said the Nazis used alliances as a temporary measure to facilitate their next planned move. Hitler's conversation with Beck regarding attacking Russia regardless if tsarist or bolshevik proves the anti-comintern pact was no more than the Nazis attempting to keep countries neutral when he did attack. However Poland was already neutral weren't they due to the non-aggression pact.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2016 at 07:44
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Again as I've already told you, Mosquito, the Anti-Comintern Pact wasn't an anti-Soviet Union pact. Educate yourself, Mosquito.


Well, maybe better you educate yourself Alani:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Comintern_Pact


"In order to avoid damaging relations with the Soviet Union, the Pact was supposedly directed only against the Comintern, but in fact contained a secret agreement that in the event of either signatory power becoming involved with a war with the Soviet Union, the other signatory power would maintain a benevolent neutrality."

"Hitler also made an effort to influence the Poles into joining the Anti-Comintern Pact and spoke of his intention to settle territorial disputes between Germany and Poland. However, Poland refused Germany's terms, fearing that an alliance with Hitler would render Poland a German puppet state"

Neutral is non-combat, Mosquito. The problem here is that they were aiming to use your land, and take Danzig from you(settle territorial disputes)when attacking the Soviet Union. Were they somehow going to defend you harder even though they were already on your land? They were treating you as being stupid, Mosquito.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2016 at 09:23
Actually Hitler understood Polish pact with Britain as breaking non agression pact.

But it doesnt matter. Important thing is, that if Polish autorithies would have agreed for alliance with Germany, even if it would make Poland a puppet state of Hitler, give up Gdansk/Danzig in exchange for big part of Ukraine and Odessa (such proposal was made), millions people might have survive the war. Million people including Jews. Because situation couldnt have been any worse. It could have been only better.

Edited by Mosquito - 13-Apr-2016 at 09:43
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2016 at 17:53
Originally posted by Mosquito

Actually Hitler understood Polish pact with Britain as breaking non agression pact.

But it doesnt matter. Important thing is, that if Polish autorithies would have agreed for alliance with Germany, even if it would make Poland a puppet state of Hitler, give up Gdansk/Danzig in exchange for big part of Ukraine and Odessa (such proposal was made), millions people might have survive the war. Million people including Jews. Because situation couldnt have been any worse. It could have been only better.
I take on your argument on board and agree that it might have been possible your people potentially could have survived until the end of the war. The question of Polish Jews might be a little bit more tricky. However, potentially  if we stretch what is likely but allow for a modicum of pragmatism, yes even Polish Jews might have survived to at least the end of the war. However, I believe the Nazis would have attempted to kill every single Polish citizen once the war had been won to fulfill General plan out. 
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2016 at 18:16
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


I take on your argument on board and agree that it might have been possible your people potentially could have survived until the end of the war. The question of Polish Jews might be a little bit more tricky. However, potentially  if we stretch what is likely but allow for a modicum of pragmatism, yes even Polish Jews might have survived to at least the end of the war. However, I believe the Nazis would have attempted to kill every single Polish citizen once the war had been won to fulfill General plan out. 


Rather to germanise than kill (my own gradfather was conscripted to Werhmacht). Eventualy kill those who resist. Those racial policies of nazists were very flexible and inconsistent.

For example this is nazi report about people form my region. I live in Poznan (germ. Posen) in Greater Poland, western part of Poland which during partitions of my country became for over 100 years part of Prussia. Many people here have mixed Polish and German roots, but anti-German sentiment here was very strong. In 1918 my region revolted against Germany, raised 100.000 strong army and kicked Germans out. After becoming independent joined to Poland in 1919. Here is the report of German gaulaiter:

"Distinctive racial characteristics frequently prove there were Germans among the applicant's ancestors, but in view of the situation in the Reich Gau, racial characteristics cannot be put forward as reliable bases for judging German nationality. On the contrary, it may be frequently remarked, particularly in the neighbourhood of the town of Posen, that the nordic element among Poles who were politically active is particularly strong. These politically active persons very rarely fail to take a definite stand vis a vis the national struggle. One cannot hope to win over these distincly nordic Poles by any kind of compromise"

However I dont think so. If Germany would have turn against one of its allies, all the others would have feel threatened and could possibily start cooperating with the allies.
So P. Zychowicz in his book writes, that Poland should have cooperated with Germany against Soviet Union and next with the western allies against Germany. In this way most likely 6 millions of Polish citisens wouldnt die and the whole country wouldnt be obliterated.
Thats exactly what did the Italians, Fins, Slovaks, Romanians, Bulgarians and what tried to do Hungarians. The result is that most of the citisens of those countries who died were soldiers, not civilians (however most of Jews from Vichy France, Hungary, Slovakia and Romania were transported to death camps and murdered).

Edited by Mosquito - 13-Apr-2016 at 18:20
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2016 at 18:34
If you havent seen it before, you can see the pictures of my grandfather and read about his story here:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1451&KW=grandfather&PID=635351#635351
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2016 at 23:28
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


I take on your argument on board and agree that it might have been possible your people potentially could have survived until the end of the war. The question of Polish Jews might be a little bit more tricky. However, potentially  if we stretch what is likely but allow for a modicum of pragmatism, yes even Polish Jews might have survived to at least the end of the war. However, I believe the Nazis would have attempted to kill every single Polish citizen once the war had been won to fulfill General plan out. 


Rather to germanise than kill (my own gradfather was conscripted to Werhmacht). Eventualy kill those who resist. Those racial policies of nazists were very flexible and inconsistent.

For example this is nazi report about people form my region. I live in Poznan (germ. Posen) in Greater Poland, western part of Poland which during partitions of my country became for over 100 years part of Prussia. Many people here have mixed Polish and German roots, but anti-German sentiment here was very strong. In 1918 my region revolted against Germany, raised 100.000 strong army and kicked Germans out. After becoming independent joined to Poland in 1919. Here is the report of German gaulaiter:

"Distinctive racial characteristics frequently prove there were Germans among the applicant's ancestors, but in view of the situation in the Reich Gau, racial characteristics cannot be put forward as reliable bases for judging German nationality. On the contrary, it may be frequently remarked, particularly in the neighbourhood of the town of Posen, that the nordic element among Poles who were politically active is particularly strong. These politically active persons very rarely fail to take a definite stand vis a vis the national struggle. One cannot hope to win over these distincly nordic Poles by any kind of compromise"

However I dont think so. If Germany would have turn against one of its allies, all the others would have feel threatened and could possibily start cooperating with the allies.
So P. Zychowicz in his book writes, that Poland should have cooperated with Germany against Soviet Union and next with the western allies against Germany. In this way most likely 6 millions of Polish citisens wouldnt die and the whole country wouldnt be obliterated.
Thats exactly what did the Italians, Fins, Slovaks, Romanians, Bulgarians and what tried to do Hungarians. The result is that most of the citisens of those countries who died were soldiers, not civilians (however most of Jews from Vichy France, Hungary, Slovakia and Romania were transported to death camps and murdered).

Now I see what direction you're coming from here, Mosquito. You're from an area the Nazis considered as belonging to Germany. Not that those chosen on racial grounds from your area of Poland for the volksliste were given full German privileges. Did you know for example that Germanisation may be considered to be as little as speaking the language, Mosquito? However, I digress a little in my intent, Mosquito, not that I haven't been indulging myself somewhat in order to see where you were heading after suggesting siding with the Nazis and then later changing sides. The trouble with that idea, Mosquito, and something a logical brain should have thought of straight away, is what is this other side you would be changing to? The alliances which brought about world war two don't exist, so what you're left with, Mosquito, is this. You've allied yourself with the Nazis who, if they manage to beat the Soviet Union, and press on with GeneralPlan Ost, are likely to ethnically cleanse Eastern Europe, including Poland(a minute possibility ethnically suitable Poles from traditional German claimed areas might survive in some capacity unknown). If the Soviets win however a huge purge will certainly occur and in the bargain allow the Soviet Union to swallow every single nation the Nazis had marched into.
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  Quote J.A.W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2016 at 02:32
To be fair, Poland had, historically seen itself as a 'Western' ( Roman Catholic)  European entity,
& had rightly been more concerned about the territorial ambitions of Russian/Czarist regimes than
those of pan-Germania, even if Nazi.. 
A concern - which was shown to be fair enough under the circumstances..

Hitler, as a proponent of pan-Germania, clearly/openly espoused his ambitious views in 'Mein Kampf'.
Unlike Stalin, who hid his essentially ego-based ( due to his being defeated militarily there) vengeful ambitions towards Poland, behind his bogus 'Communist International'  M-L rhetoric.. 

That Churchill, as an inveterate 'born-to-rule' arch-imperialist - was equally as egotistical as Stalin..
( & even though he had always rigourously opposed the Communist system, if failing to defeat it).

So, Churchill was willing to effectively sell Poland ( & all but the rump of Germania in the West to Stalin, & mortgage the British Empire/ensure U.S hegemony elsewhere) in in a cynical contra-deal simply in order to destroy Hitler personally, shows how sickeningly manipulative personalities can act when they have 'carte blanche' to carry out short-sighted 'force majure'.. even in a supposed 'democracy'..

The Churchillian 'Naval Blockade' (repeated in WW II - per WW I ) & used just as cruelly - internally - by Stalin in Ukraine,  together with 'illegal' organised terror tactics aimed at the civilian populace of the 'occupied'nations - both by regular armed forces such as air-strikes/commando raids & via secret-sabotage/'resistance-partisan' forces) in the sure knowledge that they'd draw a drastic response from the predictably 'revolutionary' (harshly ideologically) driven Nazi regime, was IMO - deliberately despicable..

No wonder the British archives which reveal these matters - remain sealed..
..under the 100 year rule secrecy embargo..

That Stalin ethnically cleansed the parts of Poland under his control is beyond dispute, his NKVD making
the Nazi SS/SD look like amateurs during 1939-'41 in this regard, only to follow up with even worse conduct there from 1944 onwards ( the 'Warsaw Uprising' being an early case in point) while Churchill either acquiesced or actively colluded, ( such as - denuding the defence of Singapore, in the face of clear warnings of the consequences, to supply Stalin instead, while plunging Britain into debt/giving away important technical secrets openly to the USA, & by espionage - to Stalin).  

But - perhaps we are approaching a point in history.. when the 'cognitive dissonance' problem can be put to rest..
& the reality of of what went down can be openly discussed, as Mosquito suggests..

Be Modest In Thyself..
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2016 at 06:02
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Now I see what direction you're coming from here, Mosquito. You're from an area the Nazis considered as belonging to Germany. Not that those chosen on racial grounds from your area of Poland for the volksliste were given full German privileges.


The Germans confiscated property of about 1 million people in my region and deported them east, to General Goverment allowing to take only 20 kg luggage for person. Their property was designed to be given to Germas.
The rest was supposed to be germanised. My whole familly was informed that they will sign the list or will be forced to leave because our part of Poland was directly incorporated to German Reich. The brother of my grandfather refused and was imidatelly changed into slave labourer and sent to Germany, all his property was confiscated.
After my granfather signed the list he was imidatelly drafted to Wehrmacht.

This is from the post of Scotish member of Axis forum:

Originally Posted by norman0303

My Father Bruno Witkowski was born on a farm in the village of Zakzewo, he used to tell us how at 04:00 on the morning on 1st September 1939 they were woken to the sound of German Artillery fire, his father a WW1 veteran and a farmer was well aware of the situation that was developing and had already pre loaded the farm cart with all their most personal and useful possesions. My father at the time was 16 years old. My father told me that on the morning of the 1st September they set off heading away from the fighting, two days later after being straffed by German aircraft on numerous occasions and due to the roads being clogged up with fleeing refugees they decided to return home.

After returning home father told us that there were both dead German troops and Polish troops around the village of Melno and towards the area of Gruta.

Father was conscripted into the German Army in 1942 under threat of his family being persecuted if he did not report for military service. Father was sent to Pilsen for Artillery Training and after completion of his training he was sent to St Nazare on costal defence duties for 3 months, then onto Zlooten in Holland and eventually sent to the Russian front in Feburary 1942 with the 38th Inf Div, whilst in Russia father talked about the great withdrawals of the German Army and he was eventually severly wounded by a Russian shell, he had severe wounds to his head, legs and back.

Father was sent back to hospital in Brunswick to recover, by the time he was fit for duty the 38th Div did not exist as it was destroyed in Russia, father was posted to 276 Inf Div in Southern France until they were moved to take part in the Normandy battles, father escaped from the German Army during the chaos of the withdrawal of Falaise and on the 20 Aug 1944 they escaped and gave themself over to the British 50th Div where he returned to UK and joined Polish army and was retrained as a Sherman Tank driver but happily never went back to war as they were not needed.

My father settled in Scotland as many Polish troops did as they knew the fate that awaited them if they went back to the Russians in Poland even though he was forced to join the German Army.


"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2016 at 07:41
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Now I see what direction you're coming from here, Mosquito. You're from an area the Nazis considered as belonging to Germany. Not that those chosen on racial grounds from your area of Poland for the volksliste were given full German privileges.


The Germans confiscated property of about 1 million people in my region and deported them east, to General Goverment allowing to take only 20 kg luggage for person. Their property was designed to be given to Germas.
The rest was supposed to be germanised. My whole familly was informed that they will sign the list or will be forced to leave because our part of Poland was directly incorporated to German Reich. The brother of my grandfather refused and was imidatelly changed into slave labourer and sent to Germany, all his property was confiscated.
After my granfather signed the list he was imidatelly drafted to Wehrmacht.
 


The plan for Poland, as set forth in Generalplan Ost, was to "purify" the newly annexed regions to create a Germanized buffer against Polish and Slavic influence. This entailed deporting Poles from these areas to those under General Government control, and settling the region with ethnic Germans from other places including from the General Government area and from within the pre-war German borders.[2]

To further its objective of Germanization, Nazi Germany endeavoured to increase the number of Volksdeutsche in the conquered territories by a policy of Germanising certain classes of the conquered people, mainly those among the Czechs, Poles, and Slovenes who had German ancestors. Thus, the Nazis encouraged the Polish offspring of Germans, or Poles who had family connections with Germans, to join the Volksdeutsche, often applying pressure to compel registration. Those who joined enjoyed a privileged status and received special benefits. Registrants were given better food, apartments, farms, workshops, furniture, and clothing—much of it having been confiscated from Jews and Poles who were deported or sent to Nazi concentration camps.

http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksliste#Germanization

The German occupation authorities encouraged Poles to register with the Volksliste, and in many instances even compelled them to do so. In occupied Poland, the status ofVolksdeutscher conferred many privileges but also made one subject to conscription into the German military.

http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksliste#Benefits_of_registration

Originally posted by Mosquito

This is from the post of Scotish member of Axis forum:

Originally Posted by norman0303

My Father Bruno Witkowski was born on a farm in the village of Zakzewo, he used to tell us how at 04:00 on the morning on 1st September 1939 they were woken to the sound of German Artillery fire, his father a WW1 veteran and a farmer was well aware of the situation that was developing and had already pre loaded the farm cart with all their most personal and useful possesions. My father at the time was 16 years old. My father told me that on the morning of the 1st September they set off heading away from the fighting, two days later after being straffed by German aircraft on numerous occasions and due to the roads being clogged up with fleeing refugees they decided to return home.

After returning home father told us that there were both dead German troops and Polish troops around the village of Melno and towards the area of Gruta.

Father was conscripted into the German Army in 1942 under threat of his family being persecuted if he did not report for military service. Father was sent to Pilsen for Artillery Training and after completion of his training he was sent to St Nazare on costal defence duties for 3 months, then onto Zlooten in Holland and eventually sent to the Russian front in Feburary 1942 with the 38th Inf Div, whilst in Russia father talked about the great withdrawals of the German Army and he was eventually severly wounded by a Russian shell, he had severe wounds to his head, legs and back.

Father was sent back to hospital in Brunswick to recover, by the time he was fit for duty the 38th Div did not exist as it was destroyed in Russia, father was posted to 276 Inf Div in Southern France until they were moved to take part in the Normandy battles, father escaped from the German Army during the chaos of the withdrawal of Falaise and on the 20 Aug 1944 they escaped and gave themself over to the British 50th Div where he returned to UK and joined Polish army and was retrained as a Sherman Tank driver but happily never went back to war as they were not needed.


My father settled in Scotland as many Polish troops did as they knew the fate that awaited them if they went back to the Russians in Poland even though he was forced to join the German Army.
 
At the end of the war my Father was stationed in Germany and was engaged to a German lass for a while. I remember him telling me how the Germans were told over and over again the fate that awaited them if the Soviets beat them in order to make them fight harder, so I'm not that surprised to hear the term "the fate that awaited them" from someone who had fought on the Nazis side. Not too surprised that this gentleman was stationed in France. It shows the paranoia of the Germans that even though their greatest fear was from the east they didn't trust their own Polish troops to stay loyal and add to the Soviet numbers.


Edited by TheAlaniDragonRising - 19-Apr-2016 at 07:23
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2016 at 08:13
Originally posted by J.A.W.

That Stalin ethnically cleansed the parts of Poland under his control is beyond dispute, his NKVD making
the Nazi SS/SD look like amateurs during 1939-'41 in this regard, only to follow up with even worse conduct there from 1944 onwards ( the 'Warsaw Uprising' being an early case in point) while Churchill either acquiesced or actively colluded, ( such as - denuding the defence of Singapore, in the face of clear warnings of the consequences, to supply Stalin instead, while plunging Britain into debt/giving away important technical secrets openly to the USA, & by espionage - to Stalin).  

But - perhaps we are approaching a point in history.. when the 'cognitive dissonance' problem can be put to rest..
& the reality of of what went down can be openly discussed, as Mosquito suggests..
Maybe we should not also forget, J.A.W, that it was the Nazi pact with the Soviets that invited them into Poland and the dividing of at least five other nations between them to do as they wish.

As for the discussing of what went down, J.A.W, I wouldn't have it any other way, a sentiment. I'm sure, agreed with on this forum.


Edited by TheAlaniDragonRising - 15-Apr-2016 at 08:14
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2016 at 10:52
In General Goverment signing volksliste was voluntary. But on the territories absorbed to Reich were often compulsory. In some cases, like in Pomerania, local gaulaiter just enlisted all the inhabbitants without asking them. But it had also other consequences. Many of the volksdeutches were working for the resistance movement and some of the most valuable informations were coming from them.

For example there was an organisation named "ZAGRA-LIN". All its members were Poles with German citisenship.

Until today not much is known about this group which was very well conspirated and was specialised in organising terrorist attacks on the territory of Reich.

ZAGRA-LIN was part of AK but completelly separated from AK organisation. There were only 18 members including at least 3 women. All members spoke German very well and all knew Germany. Some of them for example Józef Lewandowski had worked for German companies.

Some of the better known actions of ZAGRA-LIN:

13 February 1943: Bomb attack in Berlin Friedrichstrasse railway station, which resulted with 4 people dead and about 60 wounded.

24 February 1943: bomb attack at the station of Berlin S-Bahn. According to report after action in the bomb explosion died 36 Gestapo and SS soldiers and other Germans, 78 wounded,

10 April 1943: bomb attack on Berlin Hauptbahnhof (railway station) resulted in death of 14 people and about 60 wounded. After this action Hitler ordered Himmler to personally condut the investigation. Also the price of 10.000 DM was promissed for every of the organisators of attack.

23 April 1943: bomb attack on Breslau Hauptbahnhof in the moment when arrived the train with German soldiers coming from the eastern front for vacations (4 died, many wounded).

Another succesful action took place in Riga (Latvia) where ZAGRA-LIN detonated bomb in the restaurant which was full of German officers (about 100 died).

In 12 July Germans arrested officer of AK who was commanding ZAGRA-LIN (but wasnt its member) and who knew its members. In result organisation was resolved and its members recived other missions.

First terrorist attacks on the territory of Germany were organised by Polish-Silesian "Związek Odwetu" already in 1940, whose members were also German citisens of Polish nationality. During the war different Polish organisations detontated hundrieds of bombs in German trains and railway stations. Somtimes there were also very funny accidents for example when home made bomb instead of exploding started to burn and panicked Germans were jumping trough windows of running train breaking their arms and legs




Edited by Mosquito - 15-Apr-2016 at 11:19
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2016 at 11:21
Why did ZAGRA-LIN cease to exist by the end of 1943, Mosquito?
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2016 at 11:24
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Why did ZAGRA-LIN cease to exist by the end of 1943, Mosquito?


As I have written, Polish AK officer in Warsaw who knew all the members of Zagra-Lin was arrested and the unit was disbanded for secutiry reasons.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2016 at 11:31
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Why did ZAGRA-LIN cease to exist by the end of 1943, Mosquito?


As I have written, Polish AK officer in Warsaw who knew all the members of Zagra-Lin was arrested and the unit was disbanded for secutiry reasons.

This is very interesting, Mosquito. Do you have more information on these other organizations or assignments the surviving members took part in?
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2016 at 12:39
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Why did ZAGRA-LIN cease to exist by the end of 1943, Mosquito?

As I have written, Polish AK officer in Warsaw who knew all the members of Zagra-Lin was arrested and the unit was disbanded for secutiry reasons.
This is very interesting, Mosquito. Do you have more information on these other organizations or assignments the surviving members took part in?


Little is known because after the war all the surviving members had to change identities or hide their conspirational past. The Soviets would have simply killed them all. All the members of KEDYW (in Polish short for Special Operations Executive)and organisations which were under command of KEDYW, including their chief commander general Fieldorf were murdered.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2016 at 14:24
Originally posted by J.A.W.

To be fair, Poland had, historically seen itself as a 'Western' ( Roman Catholic)  European entity,


Indeed, right now we celebrate 1050 aniversary of the Christianisation of Poland. In 966 (14th april) Poland joined to the west because didnt really have other option. Byzantine empire was far while German empire was close. The event took place probably in my city - Poznan.

Edited by Mosquito - 15-Apr-2016 at 14:28
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2016 at 18:33
Originally posted by Mosquito


Little is known because after the war all the surviving members had to change identities or hide their conspirational past. The Soviets would have simply killed them all. All the members of KEDYW (in Polish short for Special Operations Executive)and organisations which were under command of KEDYW, including their chief commander general Fieldorf were murdered.


Actually it were the Jews that were murdering them. Like in the case of general Fieldorf. He was arrested by Jew, tortured by Jew, accused by Jewish prosecutor, and condemned by Jewish judge. So most of the Special Operations soldiers had to change identity or were killed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_August_Fieldorf

Edited by Mosquito - 15-Apr-2016 at 18:34
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