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Hitler's attempts to make alliance with Poland

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hitler's attempts to make alliance with Poland
    Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 06:51
Hitler's attempts to make alliance with Poland before WW2.

I start this thread on the request of Alani who wanted to discuss those matters. I will be posting messages and materials when will have opportunity (being at work right now).
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 07:18
Originally posted by Mosquito

Hitler's attempts to make alliance with Poland before WW2.

I start this thread on the request of Alani who wanted to discuss those matters. I will be posting messages and materials when will have opportunity (being at work right now).

This is more like it, Mosquito, a proper thread. Yes, I love such underhand/ smart manoeuvrings such as the German-Polish non-aggression pact. It is widely believed that through the Polish embassy a suggestion was made to the French to attack the German(The Germans in 1934 being still very weak)jointly with them. This was done in not such a private way so the Germans get to hear about it. So, bingo, this pact suddenly appears which puts an end to the rumours and allows the Germans to continue to strengthen, and the border and trade disputes(which was what the Polish were after all the time.)were sorted out.

Edit: I know, stictly as this was the Polish aiming to create this pact by underhand methods it's not really Hitler's doing. But hey I'm sure you don't mind, Mosquito, do you?


Edited by TheAlaniDragonRising - 12-Apr-2016 at 07:22
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 08:44
Before Hitler came to power Germany and Poland were in the state which can be called a cold war. Polish minority and its organisations in Germany suffered from heavy persecuations. But when Hitler came to power the course of German policy toward Poland has changed. Polish minority and organisations in Germany recived so much freedom that special delegate of Polish goverment in Germany was even called back to Poland because he had nothing to do anymore in Germany while Hitler didnt even allow for anti-Polish articles in German press.

All those acts of good will from the German side were also well recived in Poland.

Piłsudski, that time a dictator of Poland did present to Polish goverment such analysis of situation in Germany after Hitler took power:

1. German Nazi party is definatelly a revolutionary movement.
2. All the reformers and revolutionaries have tendency to destroy everything what was before and to start everything from begining. Therefore there is a chance to start new discussion with Germany about old problems.
3. Every revolutionary movement needs some time period of peace and safety from its neighbour countries.
4. Hitler is an Austrian, not Prussian. Between his closest cooperators there is no single Prussian. Most of anti-Polish propaganda in Germany was generated by Prussians.

Such situation in Germany in the opinion of Pilsudski was allowing for the start of new relations with Germany. For 5 years German propaganda became very pro-Polish, stressing that Poland might even become the ally of Germany against the French.

This is example of German propaganda showing warm German-Polish relations which are angering France.




However all Poland wanted was to stay neutral between Germany and Soviet Union while Hitler tried to drag Poland into axis, invited it together with Japan and Italy to sign the pact, which Poland refused. Many Nazi officials were coming to Poland with more or less official visitis, such like Goering's visits for hounting, trying to convince Poland to ally with Germany and promissing the whole territory of Ukraine as a reward after joined victory over Soviet Union. They were even promissing Odessa in exchange for Danzig/Gdansk.

Here on the picture Ignacy Moscicki president of Poland hounting together with Hermann Goering in winter 1938. And Goering was even more than other Nazists friendly to Poland.






Those attempts and tempting was conducted until april 1939 when finally Poland signed defence treaty with Great Britain. That treaty made Hitler mad and caused his histeric outburst, angry Hitler was shouting that Poles will pay him for their treachery.


"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 09:01
Originally posted by Mosquito

Those attempts and tempting was conducted until april 1939 when finally Poland signed defence treaty with Great Britain. That treaty made Hitler mad and caused his histeric outburst, angry Hitler was shouting that Poles will pay him for their treachery.

The outburst may well have been for show, Mosquito, for in 1935 the Nazis brought out a law prohibiting the hunting of wolves, that is on top of there banning of non-German and non-Aryans from hunting. Not significant you might think. However wolves were already extinct in Germany but not in Poland, and it has been suggested plans to invade Poland were already being written up.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 09:40
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

The outburst may well have been for show, Mosquito, for in 1935 the Nazis brought out a law prohibiting the hunting of wolves, that is on top of there banning of non-German and non-Aryans from hunting. Not significant you might think. However wolves were already extinct in Germany but not in Poland, and it has been suggested plans to invade Poland were already being written up.


Well, here is another German sign of German-Polish friendship. Red wolf, German black eagle and Polish white eagle. In the description is written" "wolfhunt" - we are hunting for wolves, eagles are under protection"

"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 09:56
Hitler asked Poland to join the Anti-Comintern Pact, an anti-Soviet alliance comprising Germany, Japan and Italy. I would say that he had no intention of attacking Poland as well as he had no intention to attack Japan or Italy.

Thats the main sifference between Poland and for example Czechoslovakia.
Hitler never asked Czechoslovakia to join the Anti-Comintern Pact. That shows the clear difference in his attitudes toward the two countries; Poland was a potential ally while Czechoslovakia was an enemy to be eliminated.

Hitler's change of attitude toward Poland in 1939 was similar to his change of attitude toward Italy in 1943. In both cases he was feeling that he was betrayed by a nation he considered as his ally.

Poland was in very good and warm relations with both Japan and Italy. Japan was even pressing on German goverment to include Poland into Anti-Comintern Pact. After German invasion on Poland, Japan still cooperated with Poland and even gave diplomatic passports to Polish agents of secret services in Germany. Italians were even emotionaly more on Polish than German side. With both Italy and Japan during 30ties Poland had much better relations than with France or England. And with Hungary even warmer.


Edited by Mosquito - 12-Apr-2016 at 10:02
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 11:02
Originally posted by Mosquito

Hitler asked Poland to join the Anti-Comintern Pact, an anti-Soviet alliance comprising Germany, Japan and Italy. I would say that he had no intention of attacking Poland as well as he had no intention to attack Japan or Italy.

Thats the main sifference between Poland and for example Czechoslovakia.
Hitler never asked Czechoslovakia to join the Anti-Comintern Pact. That shows the clear difference in his attitudes toward the two countries; Poland was a potential ally while Czechoslovakia was an enemy to be eliminated.

Hitler's change of attitude toward Poland in 1939 was similar to his change of attitude toward Italy in 1943. In both cases he was feeling that he was betrayed by a nation he considered as his ally.

Poland was in very good and warm relations with both Japan and Italy. Japan was even pressing on German goverment to include Poland into Anti-Comintern Pact. After German invasion on Poland, Japan still cooperated with Poland and even gave diplomatic passports to Polish agents of secret services in Germany. Italians were even emotionaly more on Polish than German side. With both Italy and Japan during 30ties Poland had much better relations than with France or England. And with Hungary even warmer.

About that Anti-Comintern Pact thing, Mosquito. I hate to break the bad news but it wasn't an anti-Soviet Union pact at all. Maybe you're in need of a lot more study time. Of course, the Anti-Comintern Pact as any competent historian with a workable knowledge or the era knows was to fight against Communist International an organization. Germany went out of its way to not antagonize the Soviet Union at the time.

By the way, Mosquito, love the propaganda posters. Also, love picking up on the multiple meanings the Nazis used in them. Btw, can you publish your link for them? Smile
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 11:11
Posters comes from the book of P. Zychowicz. He did find them and published in his book. I just type in the google the title of his book and find them. They dont come from one site.

Here is another. Third Reich (boy in German traditional cloths) adoring Poland (girl in Polish traditional cloths).




Edited by Mosquito - 12-Apr-2016 at 11:28
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 11:19
Originally posted by Mosquito

Posters comes from the book of P. Zychowicz. He did find them and published in his book. I just type in the google the title of his book and find them. They dont come from one site.

Here is another. Third Reich (boy in German traditional cloths) adoring Poland (girl in Polish traditional cloths).


Can you add the link for where you found the pictures please, Mosquito?
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 11:27
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Can you add the link for where you found the pictures please, Mosquito?


Now those pics are on many sites. But you can find some for example here:

http://www.paktrb.pl/galeria.html
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 11:28

Germany and Poland, dog and cat, live together in harmony what makes France (cock) very angry.

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 11:40
It is said that last time Hitler was in church when died marshal Józef Piłsudski, Polish dictator.
Hitler organised his own funneral ceremonies of Piłsudski and mass for his soul in the St. Hedwig Cathedral in Berlin.

All the most important Nazi officials had to take part in those ceremonies. There was symbolic empty coffin covered with Polish flag and it was the last time Hitler was praying in public.

Hitler admired Piłsudski especialy for his victory over Soviets in the Polish-Soviet war 1919-1920. Because of that victory he considered Poland as his natural ally against Soviet Union and Russians. It looks like Hitler had no doubts that Poland will join him.

The picture of Hitler mourning after J. Piłsudski





Edited by Mosquito - 12-Apr-2016 at 11:42
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 11:54
Another one from the same event:

"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 12:37
Originally posted by Mosquito

It is said that last time Hitler was in church when died marshal Józef Piłsudski, Polish dictator.
Hitler organised his own funneral ceremonies of Piłsudski and mass for his soul in the St. Hedwig Cathedral in Berlin.

All the most important Nazi officials had to take part in those ceremonies. There was symbolic empty coffin covered with Polish flag and it was the last time Hitler was praying in public.

Hitler admired Piłsudski especialy for his victory over Soviets in the Polish-Soviet war 1919-1920. Because of that victory he considered Poland as his natural ally against Soviet Union and Russians. It looks like Hitler had no doubts that Poland will join him.


A short video explaining the actual situation, and the play acting to gain favour. Also, the Nazis had already decided on their Lebensraum or living space for the Aryan people being Poland, Ukraine, Russia...etc...They are also known to believe the Slavs to be inferior, so I guess easily tricked...etc...The Nazis are famous for staging propaganda stunts. They were pretty good at it.



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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 13:21
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Also, the Nazis had already decided on their Lebensraum or living space for the Aryan people being Poland, Ukraine, Russia...etc...They are also known to believe the Slavs to be inferior, so I guess easily tricked...etc...The Nazis are famous for staging propaganda stunts. They were pretty good at it


Not in this case. Hitler's policy towards Poland didnt change until Poland signed pact with Britain in april 1939.
Hitler himself said many times that if only Pilsudski didnt die in 1935, there wouldnt be any war against Poland but the anti-Soviet alliance.

Do you know that even in the occupied Poland Goering ordered (most likely on Hitler's request) to keep German honour guards at Pilsudski's tomb at Royal Castle in Kraków?

Also German propaganda did change that time from pro-Polish to very anti-Polish:

Ghost of Pilsudski put jester hat on the head of Józef Beck, Polish minister of foreign affairs after he signed pact with Britain.







Edited by Mosquito - 12-Apr-2016 at 13:23
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 15:17
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Also, the Nazis had already decided on their Lebensraum or living space for the Aryan people being Poland, Ukraine, Russia...etc...They are also known to believe the Slavs to be inferior, so I guess easily tricked...etc...The Nazis are famous for staging propaganda stunts. They were pretty good at it


Not in this case. Hitler's policy towards Poland didnt change until Poland signed pact with Britain in april 1939.
Hitler himself said many times that if only Pilsudski didnt die in 1935, there wouldnt be any war against Poland but the anti-Soviet alliance.

Do you know that even in the occupied Poland Goering ordered (most likely on Hitler's request) to keep German honour guards at Pilsudski's tomb at Royal Castle in Kraków?

Also German propaganda did change that time from pro-Polish to very anti-Polish:

Ghost of Pilsudski put jester hat on the head of Józef Beck, Polish minister of foreign affairs after he signed pact with Britain.

The Nazis were noted occultists and strongly influenced by symbolism and imagery. They also used it in conjunction with their work carried out by the Ahnenerbe, as well as in media propaganda, including the removal of artifacts, to implement Generalplan Ost. This included from Poland. Goering himself had many things seized. Remember the photos of him and other ranked people visiting Poland? This is how they played people while searching for artifacts and other objects of interest. 
The Generalplan Ost (German pronunciation: [ɡenəˈʁaːlˌplaːn ˈɔst], Master Plan East), abbreviated GPO, was the Nazi Germangovernment's plan for the colonization of Central and Eastern Europe.[1] It was partly implemented in territories occupied by Germany during during World War II, resulting in genocide and ethnic cleansing. Had Germany won the war, many more people would have died as the plan was fully implemented.

The plan entailed the enslavement, expulsion, and/or extermination of most Slavic peoples in Europe, whom the Nazis viewed as racially inferior and non-Aryan.[2][3] The programme operational guidelines, prepared in the years 1939–1942, were based on the policy of Lebensraum designed by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi movement, as well as being a fulfillment of the Drang nach Osten (English: Drive towards the East) ideology of German expansion to the east. As such, it was intended to be a part of the New Order in Europe.[2]

http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost



Edited by TheAlaniDragonRising - 12-Apr-2016 at 15:19
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 19:48
I know well what general plan ost was.

But it wouldnt include Poland if it wanst already the enemy of Germany. And didnt include those slavic nations which were already allied with Germany eg Slovakia and Bulgaria.

You should note that Hitler didnt make any harm to his allies until they started betraying him.

Thats why Poland should have allied with Germany and "backstab" it when the right time would come.

Edited by Mosquito - 12-Apr-2016 at 19:51
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 20:03
Originally posted by Mosquito

I know well what general plan ost was.

But it wouldnt include Poland if it wanst already the enemy of Germany. And didnt include those slavic nations which were already allied with Germany eg Slovakia and Bulgaria.

You should note that Hitler didnt make any harm to his allies until they started betraying him.

Thats why Poland should have allied with Germany and "backstab" it when the right time would come.
Just say the Nazis had allied itself with Poland to do as you say, as it had in fact did with the Soviet Union and still tried to destroy. It would have certainly advanced its Generalplan Ost afterwards and cleansed Poland totally soon after leaving only those it deemed worthy which included no Slavs that they considered inferior. It is already a proven fact that they would ally themselves for short term gain and then still aim to destroy those same allies.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 20:27
Soviet Union and Poland are completelly different things. As I said, Hitler didnt have anything against Poland as long as it would become his ally. He completely didnt feel classic "prussian" hate toward Poland. It is clear that for long time Poland was in his plans his partner, thats why invited it to sign anti-comintern pact together with Japan and Italy.
The proposals and invitations were many and all were refused.
Soviet Union was from the begining his enemy. In fact he wanted to ally with Poland against Soviet Union inspite the fact that his advisros of Prussian origin advised him otherwise. There are many evidences of it.
At the time of the signing of the Anti-Comintern Pact, invitations were sent out for Britain, China, Italy and Poland to adhere; of the invited states only the Italians were to sign the pact, in November 1937.

For example:

"In May 1933, Hitler met with Herbert von Dirksen, the German Ambassador in Moscow. Dirksen advised the Führer that he was allowing relations with the Soviet Union to deteriorate to a unacceptable extent, and advised to take immediate steps to repair relations with the Soviets.Much to Dirksen's intense disappointment, Hitler informed that he wished for an anti-Soviet understanding with Poland...."


"In August 1935, Hitler told Goebbels his foreign policy vision as: "With England eternal alliance. Good relationship with Poland . . . Expansion to the East. The Baltic belongs to us . . . Conflicts Italy-Abyssinia-England, then Japan-Russia imminent.""

As for the central Europe, Germany under Hitler wanted to do the same thing as nowadays Germany under Merkel, to create "Mitteleuropa", the political and economic bloc consisting of all Central and Eastern European states headed by Germany.

The historical record shows that Hitler, unlike Stalin, was very loyal to those who were loyal to him.

If however a friend or ally turned against him, he was utterly ruthless in taking revenge.

However, Poland wanted to have good relations with Germany but didnt want to go for war together with Germany against Soviet Union. The alliance with UK and France was the last attempt of Polish diplomacy to not engage into war on any side. Hitler understood it as the betrayal after so many years of negotiations.

You are also forgetting that Hitler was an Austrian. It was one of the reasons why till Polish-British pact he didnt feel any hate towards Poland, unlike towards Czechoslovakia and the Czechs.


Edited by Mosquito - 12-Apr-2016 at 20:41
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2016 at 21:37
Originally posted by Mosquito

Soviet Union and Poland are completelly different things. As I said, Hitler didnt have anything against Poland as long as it would become his ally. He completely didnt feel classic "prussian" hate toward Poland. It is clear that for long time Poland was in his plans his partner, thats why invited it to sign anti-comintern pact together with Japan and Italy.
The proposals and invitations were many and all were refused.
Soviet Union was from the begining his enemy. In fact he wanted to ally with Poland against Soviet Union inspite the fact that his advisros of Prussian origin advised him otherwise. There are many evidences of it.
At the time of the signing of the Anti-Comintern Pact, invitations were sent out for Britain, China, Italy and Poland to adhere; of the invited states only the Italians were to sign the pact, in November 1937.

For example:

"In May 1933, Hitler met with Herbert von Dirksen, the German Ambassador in Moscow. Dirksen advised the Führer that he was allowing relations with the Soviet Union to deteriorate to a unacceptable extent, and advised to take immediate steps to repair relations with the Soviets.Much to Dirksen's intense disappointment, Hitler informed that he wished for an anti-Soviet understanding with Poland...."


"In August 1935, Hitler told Goebbels his foreign policy vision as: "With England eternal alliance. Good relationship with Poland . . . Expansion to the East. The Baltic belongs to us . . . Conflicts Italy-Abyssinia-England, then Japan-Russia imminent.""

As for the central Europe, Germany under Hitler wanted to do the same thing as nowadays Germany under Merkel, to create "Mitteleuropa", the political and economic bloc consisting of all Central and Eastern European states headed by Germany.

The historical record shows that Hitler, unlike Stalin, was very loyal to those who were loyal to him.

If however a friend or ally turned against him, he was utterly ruthless in taking revenge.

You're fooling yourself, Mosquito. It is a fact the Nazis considered you Slavs as inferior and on the land they wanted. Do you expect that they would suddenly have an epiphany and consider you to be better than the soil under their jack boots? It was their dream to cleanse all of the land they had planned on taking and murder or evict its people. My guess the former would have been the case, but hey you might have been lucky and pushed into Siberia or the Gobi desert.
Again as I've already told you, Mosquito, the Anti-Comintern Pact wasn't an anti-Soviet Union pact. Educate yourself, Mosquito. >>> http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_International

History shows, Mosquito, that Hitler had fits of paranoia and may have shown signs of a degenerative brain disorder which manifested itself in his fits of anger. History also shows the Nazis using a great many people and the discarding them like an old worn out shoe.
A time back, and maybe you know this Nazi propaganda poster too, I saw a poster with Pilsudski laid to rest with an angel laying lilies, or some other flowers on him. The works, which had a double meaning was something along the line of Peace, the knight, you allowed us to enter. That is one twisted sense of humour and a sure indication of their intent already on taking the country. It wasn't a new trick by any means, Mosquito, hiding a second meaning in the words you show. Shakespear did this in his plays too. One lot for the audience and the hidden for those in the know. Like with the title of one of his plays, "much ado about nothing", even the term "nothing" has about three or four meanings. Hitler's way in with the suggested peace is also a way in to taking the country eventually.
As for Hitler being loyal to those who were loyal to him, yes his secretary, Traudl Junge, describes Hitler's loyalty right to the end, the end that is when he forced them to kill themselves even when they didn't want to. Some loyalty that was. That shows him to be a backstabber right to the very end, Mosquito, and that is the creature you would have handed the lives of your people, and my guess with the same outcome.
Btw, Mosquito, it is also well know that Hitler disregarde any division between Germany and Austria and considered himself to be German.


Edited by TheAlaniDragonRising - 12-Apr-2016 at 21:42
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