Support the Return of the Parthenon Marbles

My effort is to keep this part of the forum free from trolling and flame wars. If some forumers care to debate the Parthenon marbles issue calmly and with respect to one another this is fine, otherwise they will face the consequences according to our code of conduct. I've been around long enough to distinguish ones motives.

And for the record, the demand for re-patriation of the marbles is not tied to nationalism. No one in their right mind would claim ancient and modern Greeks are the same. Yet the LAND is the same, the ALPHABET is the same, and there has been CULTURAL CONTINUITY through continuous occupation of roughly the same geographical area. It is the same with Egypt, Italy, Mexico, Peru, China. None of these populations is genetically identical to their ancestors of 2,000 years ago. Yet, artifacts are found and returned to them based on the principles that i mentioned. Why should it be different with Greece?

Say that they requested the marbles on the grounds that they were mishandled. There is no guarantee that they won't be mishandled in Athens either. Mistakes happen.

Second, they can be studied just as well in London, as they can anywhere else. I mean, really!

So finally, I am arguing that they want them on nationalist grounds - based on ideas of ''continuity'', when every normative historical process to date cries out otherwise. I can see how this could 'inflame' certain Greek nationalists - but that is the whole point - if they weren't nationalists this kind of stuff wouldn't bother them - before I get ''banned'' for stating the obvious what is plain to me and probably obvious to others is how damn sensitive these Greeks are to anything that challenges their ''continuity'' - so I guess its everyone elses problem too.

cheers.
bylazora (Shannon)
this could be goodbye!

Originally posted by bylazora   how damn sensitive these Greeks are to anything that challenges their ''continuity'' - so I guess its everyone elses problem too.

Originally posted by konstantinius Originally posted by bylazora Say that they requested the marbles on the grounds that they were mishandled. There is no guarantee that they won't be mishandled in Athens either. Mistakes happen. Second, they can be studied just as well in London, as they can anywhere else. I mean, really! So finally, I am arguing that they want them on nationalist grounds - based on ideas of ''continuity'', when every normative historical process to date cries out otherwise. I can see how this could 'inflame' certain Greek nationalists - but that is the whole point - if they weren't nationalists this kind of stuff wouldn't bother them - before I get ''banned'' for stating the obvious what is plain to me and probably obvious to others is how damn sensitive these Greeks are to anything that challenges their ''continuity'' - so I guess its everyone elses problem too. cheers. bylazora (Shannon) this could be goodbye! What is a "normative" historian? And could you post some names of historians who argue against cultural continuity since ancient times on the Greek mainland? This of course does not mean genetic continuity. It would be silly to engage in such a discussion. The Parthenon is in Athens, what other proof of "continuity" do we need? Your tone "how damn sensitive these greeks are" is anti-Hellenic. So, in my oppinion, the issue here is not the marbles, or any cultural continuity but your own latent feelings of anti-Hellenism. And that's� not� "everyone else's problem too", just your own

I used normative, in the context of 'normative historical processes'...in the sense that down the ages, there were changes to the landscape...let me give you an example...mmm Albanian migrations into Greece in the 17th and 18th centuries, you know, changes in demographics and all of that - perhaps another was that Macedonia (the place) was the birthplace of Slavic liturgy and alphabet...you know...Turkish rule for hundreds of years...etc

I havn't read alot of material on this subject - to be honest, I havn't found any book that specifically argues against cultural continuity - except maybe in terms of language...??

The Parthenon is an example of something from the past that has survived.

I wasn't trying to be ''anti-Hellenic'' - but don't you think that that kind of response sought of proves my point in a way - that in fact, you are 'sensitive' to issues of race and continuity ??

Anyway, in hindsight I reckon I overstepped the mark a bit. I could have chosen my words more carefully, so I apologise if I've offended you in any way.

Originally posted by bylazora Originally posted by konstantinius Originally posted by bylazora Say that they requested the marbles on the grounds that they were mishandled. There is no guarantee that they won't be mishandled in Athens either. Mistakes happen. Second, they can be studied just as well in London, as they can anywhere else. I mean, really! So finally, I am arguing that they want them on nationalist grounds - based on ideas of ''continuity'', when every normative historical process to date cries out otherwise. I can see how this could 'inflame' certain Greek nationalists - but that is the whole point - if they weren't nationalists this kind of stuff wouldn't bother them - before I get ''banned'' for stating the obvious what is plain to me and probably obvious to others is how damn sensitive these Greeks are to anything that challenges their ''continuity'' - so I guess its everyone elses problem too. cheers. bylazora (Shannon) this could be goodbye! What is a "normative" historian? And could you post some names of historians who argue against cultural continuity since ancient times on the Greek mainland? This of course does not mean genetic continuity. It would be silly to engage in such a discussion. The Parthenon is in Athens, what other proof of "continuity" do we need? Your tone "how damn sensitive these greeks are" is anti-Hellenic. So, in my oppinion, the issue here is not the marbles, or any cultural continuity but your own latent feelings of anti-Hellenism. And that's  not  "everyone else's problem too", just your own I used normative, in the context of 'normative historical processes'...in the sense that down the ages, there were changes to the landscape...let me give you an example...mmm Albanian migrations into Greece in the 17th and 18th centuries, you know, changes in demographics and all of that - perhaps another was that Macedonia (the place) was the birthplace of Slavic liturgy and alphabet...you know...Turkish rule for hundreds of years...etc Albanian migrations in the 17th and 18th centuries? Hah! What about the massive 300-year long Slavic incursions at the beginning of the "Dark ages" or the 400-year long Ottoman overuleship? The point i'm trying to make is that there have been much more serious earlier incursions that lasted much longer and were perpetrated by much larger groups that operated on state level (perhaps an exaggeration for slavs). Yet, the culture (if religion and language are any indicators) survived and bounced back in every case. This doesn't mean that elements were not borrowed and incorporated into the culture thus changing and shaping it in the process (please lets not start arguing again about the origin of the word "yogurt"). But there hasn't been a lapse in the changing (according to the ages) idea of what it is to be "Hellenic" since those ancient days. I havn't read alot of material on this subject - to be honest, I havn't found any book that specifically argues against cultural continuity - except maybe in terms of language...?? Perhaps you haven't looked hard enough The Parthenon is an example of something from the past that has survived. So has the mosaic  Greek culture, changing and adapting over the centuries. I wasn't trying to be ''anti-Hellenic'' - but don't you think that that kind of response sought of proves my point in a way - that in fact, you are 'sensitive' to issues of race and continuity ?? Damn right I am (not so much on race, though)! So is everyone else in the Balkans. Are you N. European or American by any chance? Anyway, in hindsight I reckon I overstepped the mark a bit. I could have chosen my words more carefully, so I apologise if I've offended you in any way. Thank you for having the magnanimity to apologise, though I personally wasn't offended nor do I think you actually wrote anything outright offensive. In the beginning I was ticked off by your forum name and thought that you were intentionally assuming an inflamatory stance on the issue. I posted a nasty reply to one of your posts that (thankfully in retrospect) was erased by Yiannis. Though you haven't read it, i feel that it's my turn to apologize since you don't seem to deserve the vehemence expressed in it.

Originally posted by Leonidas so i take it, bylazora, that you don't want to make a proper case in another thread? (for the sake of this one)�stating your opinion doesn't make it fact.

Sure. How should I word it? Some suggestions.

A historically multi-cultural/ethnic Greece?

I'm looking for accounts/events/observations...etc that demonstrate Modern Greece's "Otherness" - its diversity, its multi-ethnic, multi-cultural origins...etc

How does that sound?



Edited by bylazora - 19-Jun-2007 at 01:13

Once again: This thread is about the parthenon Marbles and we intend to keep is as such. Please do not post irrelevant issues or they will be deleted without notice and you may face consequences according to the Code of Conduct.

Originally posted by Seko Bylazora, � One of the tangents that members tend to go off on usually�involves ethnicity. With this in mind I see that you have also made it a point to discuss the history of ancient and modern Greeks. However, that is not the topic of this thread. As Yiannis has previously stated, the focus of this discussion is on the Parthenon marbles and the debate�whether or not to�return them to Greece

I gave reasons why the marble should not be returned. Go back and read my posts before you comment, or kiss my white Irish but.

I'm having trouble controlling my emotions so forgive me if I come across too harsh.  Basically it is a matter of right and wrong.  The British are WRONG.  I don't care about their pathetic excuses, they are been in britain for 200 years?  Thats the most pathetic thing I have ever heard in my life.  The British economy won't collapse if the marbles are returned.  All art treasures that were looted or stolen should be returned, no matter what.  Some have said the British Museum will be barren if that happens...irrelevant.  Same thing happens to the Louvre...also irrelevant.  The money excuse shows nothing but greed.