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Darts, used in battle ! What were they?

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Darts, used in battle ! What were they?
    Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 19:57
And that makes sense yomud! It is a "quick: movement, and if one was to avoid such a slap one would be quicker! Smile!

But, my friend, just what were "darts" before they became the ammo for a "Cross-bow?" References are made that indicated armored warriors were covered in them!

I propose that they only existed and called "darts" with the development of the "cross-bow!"

That is of course only my opinion! I could, of course, be wrong?

Ron

Edited by opuslola - 28-Jan-2014 at 20:02
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  Quote yomud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 14:33
Originally posted by opuslola

The use of the word translated in many languages as "Dart" or "Darts" comes from where? In my remembrance it exists in the Bible, and as well into the heart of the Early Middle Ages!

So, just what can we consider "darts" to be?

I await your ideas with bated breath!

Smile, Ron
in turkmen it means slap in the face
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2013 at 22:44
Unless my mind and memory have made me mistaken, it seems that Biblical history from about 400 BCE mentions "darts" used in battles, then there seems to be a large gap in time until the word was used or translated as "dart" into the 14th century CE.

Thus there seems to exist a gap of about 1,800 years between mentions. And, I further seem to remember when the word "bolt" became a usable substitute for the word "dart!", and as I remember this became a reality when solid steel darts became the common short arrow, and followed the desire to overcome the more modern steel plate armour and it also was shot from a crossbow!

Ron



Edited by opuslola - 09-Jan-2014 at 09:16
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2013 at 19:59
Originally posted by Sidney

Originally posted by opuslola


What this solution creates is something of a problem for chronology however, since the term "dart" seems to have been used to describe a weapon that proceeds the invention of the cross-bow.

Ron


Firstly, a 'dart' was not invented to fit the crossbow, but the crossbow was developed to more effectively throw a 'dart'. The darts used were modified to enhance their compatibility with the crossbow, but the object/term pre-existed the crossbow.

Secondly, the use of terms to describe objects changes over time. Present day archaeologists can use the term 'dart' when referring to an object without it being a chronological problem. The term 'dart' can cover a number of objects, not just crossbow missiles.

The missile used in conjunction with cross bows was called a "bolt". Darts were used a thousand (or so) years before the cross bow was invented.
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2013 at 07:50
Originally posted by opuslola


What this solution creates is something of a problem for chronology however, since the term "dart" seems to have been used to describe a weapon that proceeds the invention of the cross-bow.

Ron


Firstly, a 'dart' was not invented to fit the crossbow, but the crossbow was developed to more effectively throw a 'dart'. The darts used were modified to enhance their compatibility with the crossbow, but the object/term pre-existed the crossbow.

Secondly, the use of terms to describe objects changes over time. Present day archaeologists can use the term 'dart' when referring to an object without it being a chronological problem. The term 'dart' can cover a number of objects, not just crossbow missiles.

Edited by Sidney - 28-Dec-2013 at 07:51
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2013 at 22:39
From what I've read over the years, I believe that the word "Dart" was used for a short throwing spear, as opposed to the longer, heavier spear which was used to jab opponents.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2013 at 21:51
No response to the above? Funny!

Have any of you any idea that Biblical stories seem to mention the use of either "missiles or darts!"

As it seems ancient Greek accounts!~

Then it seems we next see these terms used in the Middle Ages!

HUH?

Ron

Edited by opuslola - 19-Dec-2013 at 22:10
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2013 at 21:57
OK! I guess I've got a few of you awaiting one of my very great responses to questions never asked.

Well here it is;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow

Just what is the main difference between a "bolt" and a "Dart?" I have already disproved the the contention of Red Clay. "Dart", is just as good of a descriptive word to describe the projectile from a cross-bow as any other!

Perhaps some of you will unwillingly have to agree? After all they look like "darts!" Duh!

So, just why do so many "experts" reject the notion?

Of course there is an answer to my question, but I sure would like for someone, other than myself to answer this question. I am but a dolt on this site with a number of well educated persons well versed in History.

Some even have "diplomas!"

Ron

Edited by opuslola - 19-Dec-2013 at 21:54
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2013 at 18:31
Why don't some of you understand reality? It is most obvious that in Ancient battles, any arrow you shot and missed or any arrow that your enemy shot and stood nearby, or stuck into your friend, would immediately become another reload for you or for the enemy!

The same goes for throwing spears, or javelins into the enemy ranks! The enemy then picks these items up and throws them back! This is, in my opinion, merely common sense! The weapons of the enemy in those days became ammunition for you and your comrades in arms.

Modern war movies, often show soldiers summarily discard the weapons of their opponents, which is a most stupid move! You just have to agree that is so!

In other words, you are in armed combat, and you are armed with 12 to 20 arrows, and 3-6 javelins or spears, and you run out of them!!! What do you do now? Well looking around the same battlefield it might well be that hundreds of your enemies arrows and spears, or javelins might well be right next to you, so what do you do? LOL

So?

Regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 17-Dec-2013 at 19:34
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2013 at 16:52
Dear Red, I have seen video representation of spears being launched via the use of the Atlatl, and the length of the shaft of the spear is much longer than three feet. These can be found on U-Tube!

Here is but one example! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGiuKyHkwmw

And another one; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpjpY1kWfjw

From what source did you come by with the three foot length? With a shaft length of but three feet, you might well throw it into your own head. smile.

Note Red, that your arm from your neck to your hand is about three feet, and then add the length of the wooden advantage leverage, and the butt of the shaft might well be five or more feet behind your head. As I said, you might well launch the "dart" into your own head! But a shaft five to seven feet long would offer some protection to your self, and as well add a lot of mass into the enemy!

And, here Red Clay is what another site has to say;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dart_(missile) And, as sometimes the case this Wiki article is written and edited, by idiots!

But the use of the word "missile" is good!

I believe that even some Biblical verses mention an attack of "darts!", but of course translations are in the hands of the translator! Smile

One might even realize that even without a vowel, the word "drt" is still dart! or maybe "dirt"? Smile!

So can any of you figure out where I am going next?

Regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 19-Dec-2013 at 22:06
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2013 at 10:50
The term Dart is used to describe a weapon that preceeds even the bow itself, The Atlatl.  I don't know if that's a modern usage applied to an ancient weapon, but the term is used in archaeology to describe the projectile thrown by the Atlatl.  The word Atlatl is used in the Americas to describe a "spear thrower".  The dart itself was usually less than 3 ft. in length, and used a point much smaller than an "arrowhead".  I don't know what the atlatl would have been called in Europe, as the only known use of "atl" outside of the Americas is Atlantic and Atlas.
 
The Archaic peoples here in the US used the Atlatl.  The bow and arrow doesn't appear until well into the Woodland period.  I've found quite a few "dart points" and several "broad spear" heads, but to date, none I can positively call an "arrowhead".  Actually, most of the arrowheads folks find here are, in fact dart points. 
 
 
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2013 at 06:43
Dear Cyrus! Thanks for your response.

Yes, I agree that the usage of a descriptive word like "dart", today at least, seems to indicate they were small arrows and today they are only used in crossbows or hand thrown.

Of course some historians and other experts somewhere, sometime also used the term "bolts" to describe this weapons projectile.

What this solution creates is something of a problem for chronology however, since the term "dart" seems to have been used to describe a weapon that proceeds the invention of the cross-bow.

Ron

Edited by opuslola - 18-Dec-2013 at 18:04
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2013 at 04:45
That is a good question opuslola, the word "dart" seems to have a Germanic origin, Old High German tart, so it could be related to an Iranian word, I talked about a similar thing here: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24637&PID=496563#496563

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Persian/Avestan draxt actually means "small tree" (dar/dra + diminutive suffix "-xt"), you remember our discussion about Middle Persian Knixt and Old English Cniht (boy/girl, servant, knight). Modern Persian "dar" and "tir" are synonym, so "taxt" could be in fact "traxt" (small timber).
Avestan tighri relates to Modern Persian "tigh" (thorn) or "tiz" (sharp), of course Persian "tir/tyr" also means "arrow" (the rune of Tyr, god of war).


For this reason "tirxt" (tirt) could mean "small arrow", dart/tart could be different forms of it.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2013 at 20:15
The use of the word translated in many languages as "Dart" or "Darts" comes from where? In my remembrance it exists in the Bible, and as well into the heart of the Early Middle Ages!

So, just what can we consider "darts" to be?

I await your ideas with bated breath!

Smile, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 19-Dec-2013 at 21:55
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