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Lithuanians 13th and 14th cen.

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Kalevipoeg View Drop Down
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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lithuanians 13th and 14th cen.
    Posted: 27-Aug-2004 at 12:10
What did the army compose of? How was it drilled, commanded, used tactically? What weaponry did it use? What made it so resistant against the German knights?
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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2004 at 15:12

Look http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/matthaywood/main/Lithuania.htm

 

What I would add for this text is some specific Lithuanian weapon as sulica (kind of spear), wekiera ( mace made from oak and firestones) and paw (type of shield). Also during the defensive operations the role of infantry was not so unimportant as described on a.m website - in fact in the case of Teutonic Knight "reizes" the main role was played by Lithuanian general levy infantry ...

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  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 16:33

Pagan Lithuania was a warrior nation where every ablebodied man was a soldier, and responsible to be fit for combat with arms and armour. They also had the advantage of the terrain - when a strong force of crusaders invaded they could easily hide in the marches and woods, and when the enemy was weak they could lure him into an ambush. They were awfully skilled in those ambush tactics, just as the swedes were against the danes and the germans later on in the 15th and 16th century.

Not to forget is that the lithuanians also hired great numbers of russian and even tatar mercenaries

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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 04:52

Lithuanians were going to aid Mamai at Kulikovo in 1380 aswell, but were too late. I wonder if that had an effect of the outcome of the "battle".

Yea i can believe they used ambush as a tactic. They were of barbaric roots and had not strided away from them aswell. Estonians used ambush to win our most famous battle in 1210. but in 1217. we used a clear storm on tactic and we were slaughtered.

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  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 06:50
Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

Lithuanians were going to aid Mamai at Kulikovo in 1380 aswell, but were too late. I wonder if that had an effect of the outcome of the "battle".

Yea i can believe they used ambush as a tactic. They were of barbaric roots and had not strided away from them aswell. Estonians used ambush to win our most famous battle in 1210. but in 1217. we used a clear storm on tactic and we were slaughtered.

Which battle was that? Can you tell us more about it?

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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 12:11

You mean the 1210. or the one in 1217.

Well in 1210. took place the battle of the mera river. The Estonian leader Lembitu was the leader of our troops and heard that the Germans with their allies the Livonians and Latvians(there actually were no specific name for Latvians i think. There were the latgal and semgal tribes situated there at the time) were starting an offensive toward our lands from their base at Riga. Then the Estonians left their linnus(our name for a fort) from Vnnu (todays Cesis) and as i understand the chronicle, they were retreating to the river mera. The Germans with their allies blindly followed them to the river and out of nowhere, the Estonians ambushed them from the surrounding forests and then the battle was mostly over before it got started. The Germans didn't even get a chance and were slaughtered, a big part of them were killed during running away from battle. Estonians captured a bunch of them and ripped their clothes off, cut crosses into their backs with swords and mocked the Christian knights/troops and returned to their forests, swore to slaughter the servants of Christ who will defy them next time and sent messages to every maakonda (county) to join up.

 

In 1217. there was the battle of St. Matthew's day: Estonians had understood that alone they would not stand against the iron knights and therefore sent word and gifts to the Russians to aid them in destroying the Livonian church. At the same time though the ruler of Novgorod, Mstislav, was fighting against the Hungarian kingdom on the side of Galitia. But the regent in Novgorod and a Russian prince of Pihkva promised to send troops against the Germans. The Estonians rejoiced for another victory was yet possible. So this time the Estonians were going on an offensive, but the Germans found out and formed their troops ready for battle.  The Estonian leader Lembitu called every able man from all around the countys to spill some German blood and so they came. Estonians formed an army of 6000 strong. Everyone was waiting for the Russians to arrive to Sakala, where the Estonians were waiting for them. Estonians waited for fifteen days, but no troops arrived. At the same time, the master of the German order named Folkvin had his army (3000 men) moving towards Sakala county to stop the Russians from uniting with the Estonians. The Germans moved in from the middle, the Livonians from the right and the Latvians from the left. On their way the German army raided some villages asking about the size and readiness of the Estonian force. The Estonians were waiting under the linnus of Viljandi, ready for battle. The Germans, knowing about the Estonians location and size, were ready and moved carefully unlike seven years ago. The battle started on St. Matthew's day and the Germans started off well, smashing through the Estonian centre where the Germans had their best troops. On the left, the Latvians were fighting with the troops where Lembitu himself fought with many elders or leaders of the Estonian counties. When sighting the loss and retreat of the Estonian centre, Lembitu and his other troops fell into retreat and were mainly slaughtered. Lembitu fell aswell. Then followed a chase throughout the land where the Germans, Latvians and Livonians killed our fleeing men and so fell a thousand of them. The Russians never came to battle.

 

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  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 13:53

Interesting indeed, so the estonians held off the germans for 7 years between 1210 and 1217?

Btw that Folkvin, was he the same Folkvin who became master of the Sword bretheren and fell at the battle of Siauliai 1236?

 

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 13:59
who exactly are "Germans" in the 13th century?
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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 16:29

Well the war lasted from 1208-1227 when the last of us surrendered in Saaremaa and they were our fiercest warriors. We also arose in 1236 and 1260 when the battles of Saule and Durbe took place. We were finally subdued in 1343. though when our final uprising was subdued. We started killing monks, nobles and burning churches all across the land and even tried to overrun Tallinn which failed and we were taken down. The main reason why we fell under complete rule of the Danes, Swedes and Germans after the uprising, is brought out to be that our leaders/elders and kuningad(kings) were killed during the uprising and the following raids of punishment from the overlords against our people in the following years. I remember a story about our kings or leaders of certain countys were called to some sort of agreement with the German overlords and it took place at their castle. Well our kings were tricked, killed and that is the end of that.

And the Order that conquered us was the Order of the Sword bretheren (formed in 1201.) MAY THEY BURN IN HELL.

Saksad surevad, misad plevad!!!!!!

And Temujin, by what we mean under Germans. In all of the books i have read i don't really know of what certain Germanic branch they are but we sure call them Germans or then sakslased. Maybe you can find out somewhere who composed the Order of the Sword bretheren.



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  Quote Hyarmendacil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 06:13
The Order of the Swordbrethren, like their cousin the Teutonics, was composed of knights from all over the Holy Roman Empire plus a small number from the rest of Europe. I guess most of them were from Saxony and Mecklenburg, but I can't be sure of that because I don't have my references close at hand.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 13:18
why are you calling those Orders Germans then?  they were totally independ from the HRE and not to mention Fundamentalistic Terrorists...

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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 16:29
Lithuania was one of the most interesting countries in Medieval Europe.
[IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 03:08

hmmm

Lithuanians have no superior equip compared to german crusaders...men were strong but most of them was only peasants....key to victory was tactic....

1000lithuanias+1000crusaders in the plain=no chances for lit

you must have superior tactic to beat 1000tanks(knights), lithuanians couldnt fight direct battle.

Greatest battle near Zalgiris was nearly lost....crusaders smashed our armies in direct battle but....shortly german crusaders were "ambushed"(crusaders scattered arround trying to hunt down lithuanians...but soon lithuanians stoped they withdraw formed the line and attacked, it wasn't hard to kill knights one by one, they had no time to make battle formation) and day was saved, battle was finally won

 

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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 11:21
Yea Mulder, the German knights weren't that keen on surprises huh!!!
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  Quote Hyarmendacil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 07:56
Poor Fritz...
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 08:04
huh they were knights...they didnt think that some one can cut you from behind...no honor u see....problem was that lithuanians understood honor otherwise
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 10:32

Those bastard Liths turning a perfectly honorable massacre into a bloodbath...............

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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 11:23

I just wish we could have allied ourselves with the Lithuanians and cut some more crosses into some knight's backs and kept them in their "pure Christian lands". Stupid knights, couldn't face us without iron armor huh........ wussies!!!

Damn the Livonians too, joining the enemy and now they don't practically exist anymore, maybe our heathen gods punished them. A bad thing to say actually

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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 14:08

Hi Mulder welcome to AE !

Is there some description about battle of Sinivody (1362/63) avaliable in Lithuanian sources ?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 14:26

Hi TJK ..thx..nice forum

There is very little info about battle of Sinivody i will try to do some research.

I found only this

"1362 also saw the high point of Lithuanian expansion into the Russian lands. Exploiting internal conflicts of the Golden Horde Grand Duke Algirdas invaded and defeated a large Tatar army near the Blue Waters (Sinivody). This campaign saw the capture of Kiev and the Podolia."



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