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yomud
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Topic: moder turkmens of turkmenistan Posted: 23-Jul-2013 at 04:41 |
i made this topic to introduce the turkmen people it's hard to talk about the "turkmen" cuz turkic people still didn't make clear Define for turkmen well i introduce turkmen in the way i feel is right i hope i don't it's make other turkish friends upset
TURKMEN is a nation of turkic people who change the history of middle east . the first arrival of turkmens are going back to the time of arabs Caliphate when their power was in it's peak about 7th century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubayd-Allah_ibn_Ziyad http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mu%27tasim
but stronger weave came with ghaznavid and seljuk and later they make khwarazm shah ottoman safavid afsharid qajar empire qajar and ottoman collapse in same time at ww1 since than this nation didn't recover it's former power. the people of turkey azerbijan and turkmenistan are one nation with one language and one culture and tradition . this is a 24 tribes of turkmens (oghuz turks) which make the nation im talking about !
Kayı[[22] (founders of the Ottoman dynasty and Ghaznavids Dynasty and Jandarids) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghuz_Turks#Traditional_tribal_organization
ok let me now introduce modern day turkmens of turkmenistan
turkmens live in turkmenistan since the time of their arrival . they are mainly from afshar bigdili igdir eymur yemrali Çavuldur but they no longer exist anymore (Except afsahrs and Çavuldur) they main turkmens of turkmenistan are from Salgur tribe . Salgur are most important tribe turkmen which write the history of iran their main territory was fars province having shiraz as capital ruled by seljuk royal family
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fars_Province http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salghurids_(Atabegs_of_Fars) after mongols destroy the khwarazm shah salurs surrendered without fight for this mongols spare them and take Salgur force to sack the baghdad for this Salgur become most hated tribes who dishonor the islam with aiding mongols but this is not all story they was unlucky cuz the daughter of Sa'd II, Abish Khatun was given the title of Atabegate of Fars. She was the sole ruler of Fars for one year whereupon she married, Mengu Temur, eleventh son of Hulegu from this moment we see Salgur just jump to turkmenistan and disappear from fars . im guessing that marriage start the turkmen rebellion those Salgur who was able fled to turkey (turkey was turkish stronghold) and the rest crushed than mongols decade to Exile them to very far away lands
this is sub tribe of Salgur - Usta
- Yomud (Demiroğlu)
- Hızır
- Karamanlı
- Akkoyunlu (Akçakoyunlu)
- Ersarı (Aksarıklı)
- Karakoyunlu (Karacakoyunlu)
- Kul oğulları (tekeoğlu,tekeloğlu,tekelioğlu) tekke
akkoyunli karakoyunlu usta and tekke was core tribe of kizilbash army . today turkmens in iran and turkmenistan are mostly from Salgur but still none Salgur exist like goklans which we blieve the are native turkmens and still some salgur exist in iraq and they speak exactly the way we do
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yomud
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Posted: 23-Jul-2013 at 05:44 |
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yomud
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Posted: 23-Jul-2013 at 05:51 |
for more info about the turkmen jewllery u can visit this site
http://www.metmuseum.org/en/exhibitions/listings/2012/turkmen-jewelry
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yomud
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Posted: 23-Jul-2013 at 06:34 |
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Posted: 23-Jul-2013 at 06:41 |
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Ollios
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Posted: 23-Jul-2013 at 12:48 |
Originally posted by yomud
i introduce turkmen in the way i feel is right i hope i don't it's make other turkish friends upset |
How dare you? I am pissed off now?
24 tribes of Oghuz
1st one is Qayı or Kayı = Ottoman dyansty 17st one is Salur or Salgur = Turkmenistan what about Azerbaijan and Safevis?
Originally posted by yomud
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Are they releated with Kara koyunlu and Ak Koyunlu which makes them Salur too? Kayı people map in Turkey. Actually, they are not majority Salur people in Turkey for information about other Oghuz tribal maps of Turkey (Turkish) http://www.anadoluasiretleri.com/Page.php?pid=10
Originally posted by yomud
this is sub tribe of Salgur - Usta
- Yomud (Demiroğlu)
- Hızır
- Karamanlı
- Akkoyunlu (Akçakoyunlu)
- Ersarı (Aksarıklı)
- Karakoyunlu (Karacakoyunlu)
- Kul oğulları (tekeoğlu,tekeloğlu,tekelioğlu) tekke
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This also makes me Salgur too. I am Karamanlı, According to family stories.
Edited by Ollios - 23-Jul-2013 at 12:49
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Qaradag
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Posted: 23-Jul-2013 at 14:38 |
Originally posted by Ollios
what about Azerbaijan and Safevis? |
In Azerbaijan there are all 24 Oghuz tribes aswell (most of these tribes of course became dissolved by time, joined others, pretty much the only tribe out of these original 24 tribes that seems to have lived to this day with their name is the Afshars). In historical sense we kinda do know which tribes dominated what area (for instance 17-18th century). Afshars populated Mughan steppe and Qarabagh (other tribes such as Baharlu and Qaramanlu also had a strong presence in Qarabagh), Qajars populated Ganja area, and above them were tribes such as Shamsaddinlu, Qazakhlu, Borchalu. Now of course these are just fraction of dozens of different tribes. I don't really know the tribes in eastern parts of Azerbaijan in detail, but we do know that Terekemes (Turkmens) populated these areas aswell. This is accounts of the 18th century Russian traveller (originally of German origin) Johann Anton Güldenstädt about Azerbaijani Turks, the geographical spread in this quote are the present north-east and central-north areas. http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/Dokumenty/Kavkaz/XVIII/1760-1780/Gildenstedt/text6.htm TEREKEMENSKIE OR TRUHMENSKIE
They occupy the eastern foot of the Caucasus Mountains, the western
shore of the Caspian Sea near Boynaka, Derbent and Utamisha and also own
all the southern foothills of the Caucasus Alazan or Kakheti to the
Caspian Sea. Their districts there are Cuba, Altipara, Tokuspara,
Miskindzhal, Hinakut, Krishbudah Chamakh and all of Shirvan, they all
have a common master in the person of Fath Ali Khan, whose tenure
extends to Salliana. With the given border following truhmenskie
district in the west: Shaka, Caballo, Agdash and Arash, who also have a
ruler, now it is Hussain Khan, son of Haji Dzhalabi having a residence
in the town of Nukha.Perhaps we need to look at defters of Safavid and Ottoman period for better results about tribes in Azerbaijan (their names, location, areas), now of course I don't have acces to such type of information. Halaçoğlu has used these kind of sources to shed light on Turkmen tribes in Anatolia in deep detail, perhaps we need a similar work in Azerbaijan. Southern Azerbaijan is a different case, but there are still Turkmen tribes there that have preserved their identity and even nomadic lifestyle, such as Shahsevens. Qara-Qoyunlu and Agh-Qoyunlu are very important in history of Azerbaijani Turks, but these were not actual tribes, rather names of two confederations that had united several different tribes. I would say that they have a important place among the ancestry of Azerbaijani Turks, and we do certainly know that they spoke the Oghuz tongue we call Azerbaijani Turkish today (or rather by its actual and real name, Turki).
Edited by Qaradag - 23-Jul-2013 at 14:55
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Ollios
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Posted: 24-Jul-2013 at 16:40 |
Originally posted by Qaradag
In Azerbaijan there are all 24 Oghuz tribes aswell |
It is similar with Turkey, there is no common tribe but we know that first sultans came from Kayı tribe. What about ruler of coutry?
Yomud, you went too fast
*Which is the first Turkic place in Turkmenistan? Tell us turkification of Turkmenistan
*Your jewelleries, which century were they made and by who?
*Was that horse Akhal Teke? If we talk about Turkmenistan and Turkmens, we need to tell city Merv. Silk road wasn't single route, but there was one main route and Merv which is in Turkemistan, was a city on it.
and some question about Oghuz&Turkmen
*Did all Oghuz turn to Turkmen people? (I am talking about old general Turkmen)
*Is there any different tribe in Turkmens like Uyghurs, Tatars or Karluks...?
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yomud
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Posted: 25-Jul-2013 at 15:06 |
Originally posted by ollios
This also makes me Salgur too. I am Karamanlı, According to family stories. |
well meet my salgur brother ! u know what salgurs sub tribes are more famous than salgur itself
Originally posted by ollios
Which is the first Turkic place in Turkmenistan? |
well im not from turkmenistan it's better ask it from some one from turkmenistan but i think it was dashoguz
Originally posted by ollios
Tell us turkification of Turkmenistan |
lol your ask hard questions :D . the first turks who came to turkmenistan was hun turks (ofc if u consider them as turk ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephthalite_Empire they almost make sassanids as their vessel but they disappear by time the next groups was oghuz ofc . we didn't move from east to west but north to south !! the orginal lands of oghuz was north of caspian and aral sea btw in that era turks were largely use in arabs and tajiks army http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seb%C3%BCk_Tigin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alp_Tigin until turks start to gain their indepence and and they make their own empire the ghaznavid empire tarikh i yamini and tarikhe beyhaghi are 2 book remain from that era and with seljuk the strongest weave of turks came ( from this time turkmenistan become fully turkified ) when seljuks fighting each other begdili revolt against seljuk they allied them self with kazakhs . the kazakh princess married with Khwarezm Shah for this queen gets it's kazakh queen's guard which give her more power in politics shes power was so great that she could stand against the king himself !as the turkmen-kazakh pushing rest of turkmen tribes to west kazakh slowly come to khorasan but this movement ended with mongol's storm from east ! turkmens came to turkmenistan with 4 weave the native one (such as igdir eymur yemrali Çavuldur begdili their sub tribe exist like goklan ) the one who Exile like salgur (at least half of tekke and some part of ersari and yomud)
the ones who timurlane bring them from turkey after he defeat the yildrim bayazyd (rest of yomud and large number of tatars) after timur defeat ottomans he took a lot of turkmen and tatar as slave in his return to samarkand timur cross the tabriz there he meet with hight ranked imam for his favor timur free half of his slave and make them to serve that imam the other half freed in merv
the last weave was rest of tekke who come with shah ismail from turkey to turkmenistan this is list of tekke sub tribes
- Burgaz
- Akseki
- Bahşı (Bahşiş)
- Karaca
- Karatekeli
- Alseki
- Aziz (Aziziye Kınalı Yörükleri)
- Daş (Taş)
- Dongüç (Tongüç)
- Ayak (Kızılayak)
- Ötemiş (Ödemiş)
- Mırış
- Tutamış
- Karaahmet
- Toktamış
- Tufaz
- Gökçe
- Saçmaz
each of these sub tribe have several sub tribe this show what a great number the tekke was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Marv
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yomud
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Posted: 25-Jul-2013 at 16:07 |
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Posted: 25-Jul-2013 at 16:18 |
Originally posted by ollios
Is there any different tribe in Turkmens like Uyghurs, Tatars or Karluks |
not tribe but nation ! this is Demographics of Turkmenistan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Turkmenistan#Ethnic_groups http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%A2%D1%83%D1%80%D0%BA%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B8
as u can see in turkmenistan so many nations live like Koryo-saram Kazakhs Tatars Bashkirs Karakalpaks Tajik Koreans Uyghur Chuvash Mari Kyrgyz just some of the nation in turkmenistan
Originally posted by ollios
Did all Oghuz turn to Turkmen people? (I am talking about old general Turkmen) | well shia ones tells we are turks and sunni ones says we are turkmen
Edited by yomud - 25-Jul-2013 at 16:22
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Qaradag
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Posted: 25-Jul-2013 at 22:20 |
In Azerbaijan, as one can see in historical sources, the distinction between Turk and Tarakama (Turkmen) was made on sedentary vs nomadic lifestyle, people in cities would call themselves Turks, those in rural areas Tarakama. Tarakama was later synonymous with "nomad".
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Ollios
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Posted: 26-Jul-2013 at 03:32 |
Originally posted by yomud
Originally posted by ollios
Is there any different tribe in Turkmens like Uyghurs, Tatars or Karluks | not tribe but nation ! this is Demographics of Turkmenistan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Turkmenistan#Ethnic_groups http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%A2%D1%83%D1%80%D0%BA%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B8
as u can see in turkmenistan so many nations live like Koryo-saram Kazakhs Tatars Bashkirs Karakalpaks Tajik Koreans Uyghur Chuvash Mari Kyrgyz just some of the nation in turkmenistan
| I am not talking about today's nations. I am just thinking about change from Oghuz to Turkmen(before modern Turkmens)
Karluks, Kipchaks were old tribe/nations as Oghuz. Did some of them turn into Turkmen? or just Oghuz.
British people=English+Scotish+Walshman English people=Angles+Saxons
use this method
Turkmens = Turkmens Azeris Turks
Turkmen = Oghuz + ? and Oghuz = ?
Can you fill the blanks?
What about the name of Tatar? Especial for Russian, name Tatar was coming first instead of Turkmen and Turk. They firstly meet with tatar people and use this name for all Turkic people. Did it change anything in Turkmenistan? Now modern Turkmen
What about Turkmen(modern) in Iran, are they shia or sunni?
Some people in East Europe are missing Communist system, is there anybody like them in Turkmenistan?
Foreign policy and problems in Turkmenistan I know Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan have conflict in Caspian Sea, What about other neigbours? for example; do they have conflict like Kyrgyz-Uzbek? or maybe problem with Iran because of Turkmens' rights in Iran. What can you add for this topic?
What's change after Türkmenbaşy? How do people remember him?
Originally posted by Qaradag
In Azerbaijan, as one can see in historical sources, the distinction between Turk and Tarakama (Turkmen) was made on sedentary vs nomadic lifestyle, people in cities would call themselves Turks, those in rural areas Tarakama. Tarakama was later synonymous with "nomad".
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Similar with Turkey. Especially in late Ottoman period, Turkmens were trouble for goverment. Goverment push them to give up nomadic lifestyle. Yörük is also synonymous word.
In my mom village, there are Turkmen Alevis
They still show traditional tent in small village museum
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yomud
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Posted: 07-Aug-2013 at 20:48 |
it's great mistake to think turkmens are all nomadic but ofc turkmens have nomadic groups among the turkmens yomuds well known for their ship building navigation skill and sea industry we build some stretcher on sea we call it as basagha it's something like tower(similar to Oil rig) on sea and help you for fishing and ofc it must build on not a deep area of sea (near cost ) well as i said b4 i introduce turkmen in the way i feel is right if there is mistake your welcome to tell it to me
Edited by yomud - 07-Aug-2013 at 20:52
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Posted: 07-Aug-2013 at 21:18 |
Originally posted by ollios
Turkmens = Turkmens Azeris Turks Turkmen = Oghuz + ? and Oghuz = ? Can you fill the blanks? |
well it's very hard to say something i have very little info about it but i dont think turkmens could have any connection to Karluks cuz between turkmens area and Karluks there was 2 other nations live http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naimans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara-Khitan_Khanate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_conquest_of_the_Kara-Khitai but Kipchaks is different story
Originally posted by ollios
What about the name of Tatar? |
well since im not from turkmenistan i dont know anything about it but tatars come here years b4 the russians and they still live in iran and turkmenistan so they have their own village and palaces
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Posted: 07-Aug-2013 at 23:02 |
Originally posted by ollios
What about Turkmen(modern) in Iran, are they shia or sunni? |
turkmens in iran are sunni hanafi muslem but recently they changing their belief from sunni to shia and that cuz it's have good benefits for them and they easier can have job
Originally posted by ollios
Some people in East Europe are missing Communist system, is there anybody like them in Turkmenistan? |
i dont know but since they dont pay bills i think turkmenistan still have communist system they but among the iranian turkmens communism and nationalism are heavily defeated 30 years ago and don't have supporter
Originally posted by ollios
Foreign policy and problems in Turkmenistan I know
Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan have conflict in Caspian Sea, What about
other neigbours? for example; do they have conflict like Kyrgyz-Uzbek?
or maybe problem with Iran because of Turkmens' rights in Iran. What can
you add for this topic?
| turkmenistan and azeraijan conflict actually is war between azerbijan and iran-russia have u ever ask yourself why azerbijan or turkmenistan dont have any problem with kazakhistan ? azerbijan is geting away from russia and strong azerbijan is danger to iran cuz large number azerbijani turks live in iran . iranian wants weak undeveloped but secure azerbijan (same for turkmenistan) if azerbaijan get to chaos it easily can spread to iran and russia want to stop azerbijan to get close to the west . they want to stop turkmen-azeri gas export to europe and prevent the alliance between turkmenistan and azerbaijan or turkmenistan and turkey. in the meantime iran hardly works in iran-afghanistan-tajikestan chain to stop central asian countries to get away from russian in exchange russia will help iran in other needs
Originally posted by ollios
What about
other neigbours? for example; do they have conflict like Kyrgyz-Uzbek? | in the time of turkmenbsy turkmenistan relations damage with azerbaijan and uzbekistan cuz of unsuccessful attempt of turkmenbashi life he blame both countries when he die both countries didn't send any one to his funeral but today relations gets better . uzbekistan is closest ally of turkmenistan islam karimov several time travel to ashgabat both countriesare angry about iranian involved in central asia water problem in favor of tajikistan . azerbaijan and turkmenistan problem is quite different case . iran have great influence over turkmenistan . iran is seaport for turkmenistan and every year turkmenistan buy water from iran as asghgabat is jut 35 km away from iranian border it's easy target for iranian agent to sabotage the capital for expl there was Ammunition depot Exploded out side of ashgabad and Thousands goverment say i was firework and it's explod cuz of hot weather but we could see remains of rockets and bullets every where on streets and it was clear who's work it was
iranians recently increasing their armies on turkmenistan border they made Military exercises near border their strategyis to delay turkmen azeri friendship until they got their strong navy in caspian than try to take oil fields by force . i dont think turkmen-azeri problems are so big both are still friend and they have both turkey and israel at their side
Originally posted by ollios
What's change after Türkmenbaşy? How do people remember him? | nothing in turkmenistan change people remember him as tyrant he choose to stay at iran and russian side iran president rafsanjani was close ally to him and he made pact with iran both countries must hand over the opposite politically activer to each other (this means if any turkmens run to turkmenistan will hand over to iran) this is one of turkmenbashi famous quote " iranian turkmens are not turkmen" im was happey when he dies
Originally posted by ollios
or maybe problem with Iran because of Turkmens' rights in Iran. | turkmenbasy didn't care about iranian turkmens this new president didn't show anything yet and people here watch turkey's tv rather than turkmenistan's
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Posted: 25-Aug-2013 at 12:21 |
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