Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Is Ashkenazi derived from Ashkanian?
 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Sharrukin View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Ashkenazi derived from Ashkanian?
    Posted: 30-Jun-2019 at 13:52
When Herodotus writes about Protothyes, the father of Madyes, king of the Scythians, the equivalent in Assyrian was Partatua, king of the Ashkuzai.   Hence the conventional scholarship equates Ashkuzai with Scythians.   Ashkenaz would be the Hebrew equivalent to Assyrian Ashkuzai and thus also comprehend the Scythians.  The Biblical references to Ashkenaz only reveal two things:  As a son of Gomer and in association with Ararat and Minni.  Gomer comprehends the Cimmerians who inhabited the land north of the Black Sea and were pushed out by the Scythians into Armenia and Anatolia which were followed by the Scythians.  Ararat comprehends the kingdom of Urartu which dominated Armenia and Minni comprehends the kingdom of Mannai which occupied the region southwest of Armenia.  We do know that the Scythians occupied a region of Armenia adjacent to Urartu (Ararat) and Mannai (Minni).  The Assyrian inscription which mentions Partatua has been dated to about 672 BC but any mention of "Ascanian" is many centuries later.    The later Jewish usage of the name Ashkenaz for "German" is simply a shift of meaning.   From the Hebrew/Jewish point of view, any people to the far north of them (in Syria-Palestine) was Ashkenaz.
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937 		  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2019 at 15:48
Not sure but Ashkenaz of Genesis 10 might possibly be China/Sinitic, though might be wrong.
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
Back to Top
Roman Sakhan View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 11-Jan-2019
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 32 		  Quote Roman Sakhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2019 at 16:14
Since history and anthropology connects the Baluch in the southeastern Caspian, so the history of the Baluchi tribe Askani is connected with the Asekan Alburz region of iran, this was the birthplace of the Arshakids, from the constant conflict with the Baluchi (Ascani) and Sassanids left the region, although today the local tribe live there Baloch Narui ...

Some of the writers in the same vein pointed out that the Parthian history also confirms the settlement of a people speaking a similar language of Ashkani (Parthian) in the Elborz Mountains.(Janmahmad, 1982).


Edited by Roman Sakhan - 07-Feb-2019 at 13:38
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937 		  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2013 at 05:02
to discover the identity of Ashkenaz one has to consider the groupings/relations of the names in the table of nations of Genesis 10 ie Gomer & 3 sons should be treated together. Considering that here is a list of just the possible matches i could think of to pick the most likely from: 

Ashkenaz/Ashkuz/'ashkanaz/ascanaz/ash'kanaz/Aschanax(ians) /[Ashpenaz?] "a man as sprinkled / fire as scattered / fire that spreads" ("horseman"):
~ Eskimo? china? / Ashina/Asena Tuwu? Tashkent? Agni? Afghan? Saka(s)/Sacae/sacaseni/sistan / Scyths? ashkanian (parthian/iran)? Ishguzai / Ishkuza/ishkuz / ashkuza/ashkuz/askuza / Ashguza/asguza?  Men Ascaenus? Oscans? aspergers? sican? Ascanius? Ascanian? Saxons? Isceio? Askr? Scandinavia? "Ochus"? Ashanti/Akan? Arkansas?

Moses list of the Japhethite nations seems to have gone from east thru  middle to west then far west, something like say Gomer (sons Eskimo? Riphath/Japan/riben/Tibet? Togarmah) Magog/Mongol/Magyar, Madai/Malays [incl Dravidian & Madagascar], Javan/Ionia (Elishah/Pelasgi/Hellas, Tarshish/Tarsus/Tros/Etruscan? Kittim/Crete/Celts? Dodanim/Dardanians/Dorian?) Tubal, Meshech/Meshwesh/Maxyces/Mexica? and Tiras [Peru]?
I'm not saying this is definitly right its just a quick rough partial scetch of my impressions in research so far.


later edit post: On reflection re the meanings of the name I think maybe i got it a little bit wrong and maybe the central Asia/kazakhstan location (between black sea and baikal) is the most likely and roughly agree with the Scythian/Saka [and Kirghiz and Ashina]?



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 21-Jun-2013 at 14:22
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2013 at 01:59
It is difficult to talk about the meanings of those ancient names, but "horseman" can be really a possible meaning especially because "Asa" means horse in the Old Persian langauge.
 
About Germanic Asgard, yes, I believe it relates to Scythian As, the suffix "-gard" has the same meaning in the Iranian languages.
Back to Top
mojobadshah View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 20-Apr-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 382 		  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2013 at 20:46
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

They were one of Scythian people who were known as the As (Asiani/Ossetian) and lived in a region in the north of the black sea named Asgard (Asagarth in Old Norse and Asagarta in Old Persian), in the seventh century BC, they invaded and occupied the lands in south of the Caucasus and the northwest of modern Iran, these invaders were called Asguza in the Assyrian sources and Ashkenaz in the Jewish texts.

Ah... I see.  So I take it Ashkanian does not mean "horseman" and is not akin to words like equine and Afghan?  Is this the same Asgard as in the homeland of the gods in Nordic?
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2013 at 16:55
They were one of Scythian people who were known as the As (Asiani/Ossetian) and lived in a region in the north of the black sea named Asgard (Asagarth in Old Norse and Asagarta in Old Persian), in the seventh century BC, they invaded and occupied the lands in south of the Caucasus and the northwest of modern Iran, these invaders were called Asguza in the Assyrian sources and Ashkenaz in the Jewish texts.
Back to Top
mojobadshah View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 20-Apr-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 382 		  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2013 at 14:22
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Of course the names of both Ashkanian dynasty in Iran and Ascanian dynasty in Germany relate to Ashkenaz.

You sound pretty confident and it makes sense to me, but the thing that threw me off was an etymology that connected Ashkenaz to Scythian.  
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2013 at 14:14
Of course the names of both Ashkanian dynasty in Iran and Ascanian dynasty in Germany relate to Ashkenaz.
Back to Top
mojobadshah View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 20-Apr-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 382 		  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2013 at 13:11
Is the eponym Ashkenazi as in Ashkenazi Jews derived from the eponym Ashkanian (Parthian)?
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.