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mojobadshah
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Topic: Why is the word savah cf. Saoshyant important? Posted: 25-Mar-2013 at 19:34 |
A book I read says that the Avestan sava which is related to the Avestan. Saoyshant "Christ, Messiah." Why is the Avestan form itself important? Is the Avestan sava akin to the English savior?
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 26-Mar-2013 at 01:27 |
What do you mean by Savah? The first part of the name of Saoshyant or Vouru-Savah, one of the six helpers of Saoshyant? Anyway the word seems to be related to the Persian word "saod" which means "benefit, advantage".
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Baal Melqart
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Posted: 26-Mar-2013 at 12:36 |
So tell me Cyrus, what is the most literal translation of the word 'Saoshyant'?
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mojobadshah
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Posted: 26-Mar-2013 at 13:32 |
I think I can answer that question. The most literal translation of the word 'Saoshyant' is "future deliverer or world-savior," but it is from this expression that the Hebrew and Greek Messiah and Christ, respectively, came to mean "future deliverer" as well. Originally the word Messiah or Christ only signified one who had been through the anointed with oil.
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mojobadshah
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Posted: 26-Mar-2013 at 13:34 |
It has come to my knowledge that Avestan Saoyshant has some bearing on the Greek soter "savior." Was it that the Greek soter developed from the Avestan Saoyshant or just that its usage came into prominance on account of the Persian usage of Saoyshant?
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 26-Mar-2013 at 15:13 |
Originally posted by Baal Melqart
So tell me Cyrus, what is the most literal translation of the word 'Saoshyant'?
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According to my Persian dictionary, "Saoshyant" (saoshiianet) is an active future adjectival participle from the verb "sui" which means "to swell, to succeed, to be strengthened". The second part of the word is said to be a combination of two suffixes "-shiia" and "-anet/net", the first one indicates the future tense and the second one is used forming the adjectival participle. The whole word actually means "desirous of success and strength".
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mojobadshah
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Posted: 26-Mar-2013 at 16:21 |
So the Avestan Saoyshant is related to the Persian saod. The Persian sounds like it could be cognate with Greek soter. So was soter a loan from Persian?
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 29-Mar-2013 at 12:08 |
savior (n.)
c.1300, "one who delivers or rescues from peril," also a title of Jesus Christ, from Old French sauveour, from Late Latin salvatorem (nominative salvator) "a saver, preserver" (cf. Spanish salvador, Italian salvatore), from salvatus, past participle of salvare "to save" (see save (v.)). In Christian sense, translation of Greek soter "savior." Replaced Old English hælend, literally "healing," noun use of present participle of hælan (see heal).
As you read the word has a Latin origin, not Germanic, so it can be related to an Iranian word, similar to Germanic, "s" sound should be changed to "h", it is easy to find the Germanic/Iranian word, sal.. to hal.. (heal), Latin salvator -> Germanic/Iranian halvator (healer)?
Ahura Mazdah was assisted by six deities, the Amesha Spentas, who were as follows:
Vohu Manah (good thought); Asha Vahista (highest righteousness); Khshathra Vairya (divine kingdom); Spenta Amaiti (pious devotion); Haurvatat (salvation); Ameretat (immortality).
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mojobadshah
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Posted: 30-Mar-2013 at 09:22 |
I understand that Haurvatat is akin to the English savior. But soter is not related to the same root as savior, and someone once told me that its very likely that Saoyshant either gave rise to the root soter or influenced Greek usage of the word soter. Now that you've mentioned the Persian saod it looks to me like soter could have been a loan, but I'm not sure. What is the PIE root of both saod and soter?
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 31-Mar-2013 at 08:35 |
About the Persian word saod, as I mentioned above, according to my Persian dictionary, it comes from the verb "sui" (to swell, to succeed, to be strengthened), so the word actually means "increasing in size or number" or "gaining something more", I think it can be related to Old English "swith" which means "strong, very much, exceedingly": http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/swith
But soter seems to be from Greek “sozo” which means to save, to rescue, to deliver.
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TITAN_
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Posted: 31-Mar-2013 at 09:41 |
Originally posted by mojobadshah
So the Avestan Saoyshant is related to the Persian saod. The Persian sounds like it could be cognate with Greek soter. So was soter a loan from Persian?
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Negative. My etymological dictionary indicates that the word soter comes from ΣΩΤΗΡ and it means saviour. Saod and soter don't sound similar in any case.
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αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν
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“Ever to Excel“
From Homer's Iliad (8th century BC).
Motto of the University of St Andrews (founded 1410), the Edinburgh Academy (founded 1824) and others.
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mojobadshah
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Posted: 31-Mar-2013 at 14:53 |
I'm not sure where this former got his information but he did appear to be an established linguist and this is what he had to say about the saoyshant - soter connection. I'm pretty sure I've read about the same point in "Zoroaster's influence on Greek philosophy," but I can't find where I read it:
Greek sozein "to save" and its actor-noun soter "savior", both ubiquitous in gospel of John and other New Testament books. (English, like Greek, generally uses -er for the actor-noun affix "one who does [such-and-such verb]" but the -ant on Saoshyant is also an old Indo-European affix for that role, seen in some Latinate words in English like claimant, one who makes a legal claim, or Protestant,
originally meaning one who protests.) The root is not the same
*SALWE/SARWE discussed last time, but something like *SOTYE with a
"palatalized" T that turns into a sibilant in some of the Greek (soZEin)
and all of the Persian (saoSHYant) forms. What is particularly
interesting linguistically here is that the initial S- in Saoshyant
is from an original S in the Indo-European: I told you that "all" the
original S turned into H, but there are a handful of exceptions (the
word Avesta is another), and this suggests that these words were
used religiously for centuries before Zoroaster (words used in
repetitive chants, etc., are resistant to the pronunciation shifts that
words used day-to-day undergo). The Greek word did not originally have a
religious usage, and probably came to acquire one under the influence
of the Persian cognate.
So is this forumer essentially saying that the Greeks adopted the Persian cognate or just that their usage of soter was influenced by the usage of its Iranian cognate?
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 31-Mar-2013 at 15:12 |
I have researched about the similarities between Saoshianet/Saoshyant and Seaxneat/Sahsnot/Saxnot in the Germanic paganism, however the virgin-born Saoshianet seems to be more similar to Balder, another Odin's son by a human mother, but I believe the name of Saoshianet was replaced to Balder and then was changed to Saxnet, as the ancestor of the Saxon people.
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TITAN_
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Posted: 01-Apr-2013 at 02:04 |
Originally posted by mojobadshah
I'm not sure where this former got his information but he did appear to be an established linguist and this is what he had to say about the saoyshant - soter connection. I'm pretty sure I've read about the same point in "Zoroaster's influence on Greek philosophy," but I can't find where I read it:
Greek sozein "to save" and its actor-noun soter "savior", both ubiquitous in gospel of John and other New Testament books. (English, like Greek, generally uses -er for the actor-noun affix "one who does [such-and-such verb]" but the -ant on Saoshyant is also an old Indo-European affix for that role, seen in some Latinate words in English like claimant, one who makes a legal claim, or Protestant,
originally meaning one who protests.) The root is not the same
*SALWE/SARWE discussed last time, but something like *SOTYE with a
"palatalized" T that turns into a sibilant in some of the Greek (soZEin)
and all of the Persian (saoSHYant) forms. What is particularly
interesting linguistically here is that the initial S- in Saoshyant
is from an original S in the Indo-European: I told you that "all" the
original S turned into H, but there are a handful of exceptions (the
word Avesta is another), and this suggests that these words were
used religiously for centuries before Zoroaster (words used in
repetitive chants, etc., are resistant to the pronunciation shifts that
words used day-to-day undergo). The Greek word did not originally have a
religious usage, and probably came to acquire one under the influence
of the Persian cognate.
So is this forumer essentially saying that the Greeks adopted the Persian cognate or just that their usage of soter was influenced by the usage of its Iranian cognate?
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Those "educated" guesses are mere speculations. It looks like someone tries to connect Greek to Persian, even when there is no apparent connection. Perhaps someone has an agenda? I don't know. What I do know is this: When we are talking about ancient words of that period, saying that a particular Greek word was influenced by Persian has no basis, because it could have been the other way around. How do we know which word was coined earlier?
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αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν
Een aristevin
“Ever to Excel“
From Homer's Iliad (8th century BC).
Motto of the University of St Andrews (founded 1410), the Edinburgh Academy (founded 1824) and others.
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