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BEST TANK IN THE WORLD

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xristar View Drop Down
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: BEST TANK IN THE WORLD
    Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 07:29
Yes, but what about the quality of the crews? If you have the arab-israeli conflicts in mind, or the gulf wars, there was a clear difference in training between the fighters.

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  Quote Gundamor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 13:30
Originally posted by xristar

Yes, but what about the quality of the crews? If you have the arab-israeli conflicts in mind, or the gulf wars, there was a clear difference in training between the fighters.

    
Those engagements are good testing grounds though. Not necessarily to see west vs east tank battles. Its quite known that Iraq armour was very degraded and their ammo was even worse. The T-72 that had a point blank rear shot on the abrams had it been part of the soviet army would of probably destroyed it.

A big engagement like Iraq or even the current areas that a country is involved alows tanks to test their overall abilities and adjustments to be made to actual seen flaws. I served in the american army for 11 years and after every thing we did we had an after action review. This is great help for making changes to things that dont seem to work well. The M1A2 has gone over alot of overall changes just on these type recomendations TUSK etc. American tankers are extremely well trained.
    

Edited by Gundamor - 25-Jul-2006 at 15:06
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  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 14:58
Originally posted by aghart

Originally posted by Russian


Originally posted by Gundamor

M1A2 SEP and the Leopard 2 A6 are hands down the top MBTs. You could argue for various reasons between the 2 on which is better but they are the top dogs. I'd probably lean(bias maybe) towards the Abrams because of combat experience and DU rounds.

    

and could you please eqplain why are these two tanks the best? I'd put as two best tanks Merkava M4 and T-90.
 
Russian, I applaud your loyalty to the "homeland" and i acknowledge russian experience in tank development but the fact remains that since 1945 every time russian/soviet built armour has gone into action against western built tanks they have been outfought, outclassed, and totally defeated by British/US/French built MBT's.
 [/QUOTE] 
 
Outfought, maybe.
Outclassed - huh?!
Totally defeated - yeah, right, using air superiority/supremacy. I mean is this only about tanks or do I have to take my RPG from the closet (or call for an AT action of the flying boysTongue)?
 
*NVA was still using the T34/85 and that wagon was still a major threat to modern built US ones.


Edited by Cezar - 26-Jul-2006 at 15:00
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  Quote Gundamor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 15:30
Can you give examples of when soviet tanks did well against western ones? Comparing the T34/85 to the M60 is also an interesting analysis. Are you saying it outclassed the M60? I was never a fan of the M60 anyways and very well might have fallen short of T64s-T72s. Its also a well known thing that a lucky or well placed RPG shot can disable any tank. Good luck killing the crew though on the best modern tanks.
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  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 12:42
Originally posted by Gundamor

Can you give examples of when soviet tanks did well against western ones?
I never made such a statement. I just said they were not outclassed (the SovTanks. To me "outclassed" means to throw a T34 against a M1A1.
 
Comparing the T34/85 to the M60 is also an interesting analysis. Are you saying it outclassed the M60?
 
No, but since you seem to know about the M60 would you have enjoyed a hit from the T34/85 from about 3-400 m? In terms of when those tanks appeared it's like being beaten by grandad.
 
Also soviet made equipment was very reliable.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 05:55
The best tank in the world is Leclerc and Black Eagle from France-Turkey and RussiaWink
 
 
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  Quote aghart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 17:08
Will the western world adopt a single tank to equip their armies when the current crop of tanks need replacing?
 
With it's ever diminishing tank fleet I can't see the UK spending billions on  new tank development and then ordering a mere 300 vehicles!!!
 
Firepower, protection & mobility are the 3 main criteria for tanks and in the past different tanks had these 3 factors in different levels of importance.
 
Today however you can have all 3, you really can have your cake and eat it!!!  Powerful engines and modern suspension systems mean even the  most heavy tank can still be fast and mobile. Improved armour is giving all tanks greater protection and with the UK falling into line with the rest and adopting a smoothbore gun firepower is becoming pretty much standardised across the board.
 
Leopard, M1, Challanger II are very evenly matched so what is the point of 3 new tanks being developed?  
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  Quote CR2 Cmdr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 14:23
It irks me slightly when so much credit is given to Leopard 2 and Leclerc when neither have been within a whisker of any theatre that constitutes a battle ground.  Leopard 2 looks like a fantastic tank to train in; its fast and comfortable and has a nice reversing camera.  However, i wouldn't fancy taking a hit in one..... I hear Leclerc is hampered by reliability!  I am not sure if it is true but i hear it has 7 reverse gears just 1 forward, or is that the Italian MBT?? 
 
Sure, Challenger II has its problems; some power pack issues, but it just got new track (awesome), new radios and digital battle field management system.  Combined with the Dorchester bolt on armour it is a truly magnificent beast.  I reckon my gunner and I garaunteed a first round hit on the move against movers out to 2000m at least.   In the Greek trial, some muppet in the supply chain sent very poor quality ammo, but I would say that wouldn't I, but that is what i heard from ATDU guys.
 
Not so sure about M1, had a look round and there is room for a party inside (or a hammock)....where is the armour? a 432 has as much roof armour!  Its fast, but thats a hell of heat signature from that turbine!  I also saw some trashed by RPGs.  I saw RPG hits on CR2 and they took off some paint, bastards.
 
I hear latest Merkava's are very good indeed, but a little specialist and not so sure they would be so good in the open; the desert for example.
 
Now the Russians know a thing or 2 about tank building.  But do they know a good thing??? They can't elevate or depress barrels much - not much use in the outskirts of Al Zubyr. I hear If they take a hit, the first thing to go is the auto loader mechanism; what use is a tank without a gun.... I bet their infantry love that Shatora defensive aid sweet to....
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  Quote Hornet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 07:51

As it was previously said by one of the Forum members Tank is only one part of the battle system. And EACH tank is best suited to Certain conditions. For example what sense in comparing Ford Mustang VW Beetle and Honda Civic? No sense at all. The same about tanks.

Merkava best suits Golans where there are specially prepared positions for these tanks to meet Syrian forces. It is no way a tank for maneuverable war on open locations, where (as Guderian said) tanks motor is the same weapon as its gun. But, as far as I know, Israel is not going to conquer the whole Africa

Abrams good piece of Chobham amour, one of the best in modern world, but not good for deserts and dusty conditions (even with the improved filters). Unfortunately this machine has to fight not in Europe, for which it was designedSo the overall mark is 9,5 of 10 (it really can kill any tank which are supposed to be their counterparts during next 10 years)

T80 good one, but not the best fire control and survivability troubles, as it was shown in Grozny 1994

Black Eagle (which is NOT T90) may be good (if produced in numbers more than 10 pce.), but again Russian weapon producers have no less skills and experience in  hiding weak sides of their construction than Western ones. And anyway it can not be class up over Western tanks Russians simply dont have that prominent fire controls. And another question where do they want to use the stuff? In France? On sell it to some Arabia, where their engines will suffer reliability trouble due to the dust?

T84 has better defense than most of Russian MBTs, but its diesel is not very reliable. Yet, with the deployment of Bahira 140 mm gun it can be able of destroying any tank. For Ukrainian Army the task of meeting big crowds of T80/90 may be as real as for NATO two decades ago, so any number of these in Ukrainian army will be accepted with great enthusiasm and will really meet theatre requirements.

Leclerk a nice toy, but they had to switch off all the electronics to cross a Paris square Not sure these are ready to fight elsewhere but on Place de la Defance

Leopard simply the best. It fits requirements of all the armies purchasing the vehicle, and it is really the example of good analysis of expected operational conditions. But will this cat be good in Rwanda of Somaly? With lack of  parts and German Mercedes class service ?

 

And let us remember Guderian and Rommel were equipped with small numbers of  bad tanks. It was only a matter of tactics and qualification , and it is still a matter of tactics and qualification

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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 11:21
The T-84 probably won't be fielded with a 140mm gun.  AFAIK, NATO decided that the 140mm gun was simply too large and would require too many changes to the turret, for an increase in muzzle velocity [or projectile mass, which seems to be more important] that really isn't that dramatic.  I'm particularly saddened by the fact that the United States, and most other NATO countries, have decided to not put more effort into liquid propellant technology, and they instead waste time on technologies that won't be ready until the 20s [electrothermal-chemical and railguns, for example]. 

Originally posted by Hornet


And let us remember Guderian and Rommel were equipped with small numbers of  bad tanks. It was only a matter of tactics and qualification , and it is still a matter of tactics and qualification


Yes, and their enemies were equipped with worse.  Well, perhaps not France, but they lost for other reasons than lack of tanks or tactics.


Black Eagle (which is NOT T90)


To aid in distinguishing the two differences, pictures!  The T-90:



and the Black Eagle:



To be honest, the Black Eagle could be a T-90.  This particular example is the Black Eagle turret on a T-80 - the Object 640 [Black Eagle] was originally a turret upgrade for the T-72, T-80 and T-90 by defaul [the T-90 being a T-72 in most respects], AFAIK.  I think they've gone ahead and designed a chassis for it, but according to an article published by ARMOR Magazine the Black Eagle is a waste of time and money.

Russia still seels a lot of of technology to countries like North Korea, Algeria [who just bought 300 T-90s], Libya and India [who also has purchased a good number of T-90s, in lieu of faults in their own Arjun].  Nevertheless, IIRC, Russia only has a single factory plant open at this time, as the one in Omsk is alsmost [or is] bankrupt.
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  Quote Hornet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 13:53

Excuse me, I wouldn't like to look rude or offend you, but who of Germany enemies had worse tanks? Matilda proved to be more that capable of meeting German 50mm shells (I mean 42cal gun, we are not talking about the heavy stuff they installed later). Grant it was not a masterpiece, and its main armament was its look (they say few German crews died laughing). But in fact the box was thick And T34+Kv1/2 nice couple, exactly what Wermacht needed to start working on PzKW5.

Regarding 140mm on T84 I think even with 125 it is still a good tank for Eastern Europe. What is your idea?

One more thing - how is All Electric Tank project is doing. 

Edited by Hornet - 11-Sep-2006 at 13:55
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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 14:38
Originally posted by Hornet


Excuse me, I wouldn't like to look rude or offend you, but who of Germany enemies had worse tanks?


Well, although French and English tanks were partially superior to German armour during the invasion of France both of them lacked radio communication.  Since I consider radios as an integral part of a tank, I then rate the tank not based solely on armoured protection and armament, but on its ability to cooperate with other tanks and the situation of the crew.  But, France aside, the Germans found their armour considerably superior to Polish machine gun armoured fighting vehicles, and the majority of Soviet armour during Barbarossa.  When the Germans did encounter T-34s and KV-1s/2s they were often times literally stopped in their tracks - at least temporarily.


Regarding 140mm on T84 I think even with 125 it is still a good tank for Eastern Europe. What is your idea?


IMO, they should start switching over to the more universal 120mm.  AFAIK, the 125mm doesn't offer any advantages in velocity, and IIRC the current 125mm guns have low calibre lengths.  The 125mm gun that may be fitted into the North Korean Ch'onma-ho IV is 48 calibres, IIRC, while the latest German design is 55.  Of course, AFAIK there is nothing stopping the Russians, or Ukrainians, from developing a longer 125mm gun, but I see no reason to continue its use given that Russia is not expecting a war with NATO any longer and it would be logistically sound to exchage 125mm with 120mm given that potential buyers can now buy their tanks with the ability to buy their ammunition from a Western country if necessary. 

Otherwise, I'd agree; 125mm is enough.  I've read some articles that even suggest downgrading to 105mm, since there have been 105mm guns that have had equal muzzle energy to 120mm guns. 

In any case, for the pleasure of anybody that cares, pictures of some 140mm guns:



British 140mm on a Centurion chassis.  Next picture, same thing unmounted:



Pz87 with 140mm gun mounted:






how is All Electric Tank project is doing. 


All I have read is that this isn't even on the drawing board yet. 
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  Quote Kerimoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 05:58
Well, Lecler is totally not a toy, it is a. awesome tank cose Turks are going to build it together with France. Smile
 
Black Eagle-the only thing that I can is that that monster has 3 types of missle defence system and the forth is its appearence itself, so it would be really hard to bring it down. Bu, Today, i believe it was Leopard 2 M2 taht won the compeptition in Arabia.
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  Quote Desimir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2006 at 17:58
You said that russians dont have a prominent fire control.
When i watch a movie about upgraded version of T-90,T-90S i was very surprised by its capabillities.T-90S is a holder of the unofficial record for most hit targets in 1 minute.The russian tank hit 7 targets for 1 minute in a range of 5km.All targets were precise hit by T-90.
The previous record was 6 hits by german Leopard 2.

T-90 also managed to fire while jumping and hit all of the targets.This is a solid proof for the potential of russian tanks.
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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2006 at 21:10
And the Challenger 2E remains the fastest firing tank, but it doesn't mean anything.  During tests the Challenger tank was able to engage and destroy 6 targets in ~26 seconds.  They were loading three-piece ammunition.  Faster than any autoloder.  Unfortunately, it doesn't state the fact that one round was ready-to-go and the entire tank wasn't moving.  The T-90S is an interim upgrade for the T-72 and T-80 to provide it with up to date armour before the actual next generation tank is completed [T-95?].
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  Quote Desimir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 16:13
I am wondering which tank is the best in Urban or Forest envirоnment.I think that a smaller tanks like T-90 are more suitable.
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  Quote bleda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 18:39
what about korean k2 ,used new  tecnology
but i think best tank leo2
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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 13:40
Originally posted by Desimir

I am wondering which tank is the best in Urban or Forest envirоnment.I think that a smaller tanks like T-90 are more suitable.


Most likely, although the short [but stubby] Merkava, or the French LeClerc.  The Leopard 2E really is a disadvantage considering the longer L/55 gun on the A6 and 2E [Spanish uparmoured version].
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  Quote tsar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 09:49
Originally posted by Desimir

I am wondering which tank is the best in Urban or Forest envirоnment.I think that a smaller tanks like T-90 are more suitable.

    

For tight spaces and urban combat i would say the israeli Merkava.
    

Edited by tsar - 11-Oct-2006 at 09:50
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 14:07
Originally posted by Desimir

I am wondering which tank is the best in Urban or Forest envirоnment.I think that a smaller tanks like T-90 are more suitable.


No tank is suitable for urban or forest combat.Have in mind that no tank has been designed for urban environment. I doubt that any modern tank would last long in urban surrounding if faced with modern anti-armor weapons. Luckily for the US and GB forces their tanks are usualy atacked by obsolete  RPGs  or  IED's (with more succes than suspected).

Abrams would be easy target for infantry armed with RPG-29 ambushing on rooftops. Neither would T90 survie the same attack by javelin missile.

In urban surroundings tanks rely on infantry support. If infantry is under suppresive fire or is unable to find ambush-tank is tosted. Sending tanks in urban combat against well armed and prepared defenders is not the thing you want to do. Re. Stalingrad, Berlin...etc.

In battle for Vukovar jugoslavian army lost some 400 tanks and apc-s just becouse of the poor infantry support.
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