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Iranian obsession with Nordic features

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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Iranian obsession with Nordic features
    Posted: 18-Feb-2013 at 07:28
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


 
The same thing can be said about the Indo-European people, there is a more strong relation between Iranians and Germanic people than other Indo-European people, they are the only people who worshiped just Goda/Khoda, their leader was called Kian/King and their greatest festival was Yalda/Yuletide and many many other things.

From a linguistic/cultural/anthropological point of view, Iranians are not closer to Europeans than Europeans are to each other. Even in ancient times, the Persians were considered alien to the Greeks. They had almost nothing in common..... The Romans on the other hand were much closer to the Greeks....

Regarding Germanic tribes, I fail to see any closeness to Iranians, in modern times.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2013 at 09:49
Originally posted by TITAN_

From a linguistic/cultural/anthropological point of view, Iranians are not closer to Europeans than Europeans are to each other. Even in ancient times, the Persians were considered alien to the Greeks. They had almost nothing in common..... The Romans on the other hand were much closer to the Greeks....

Regarding Germanic tribes, I fail to see any closeness to Iranians, in modern times.
 
Why should I repeat one thing several times? By Iranian, I mean Iranian-speaking people who lived alongside the Germanic people for thousands years, not the Persians. For this reason I see a large similarity between Iranian and Germanic cultures in all aspects.
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2013 at 10:15
Which Iranian speaking people left Persia and lived alongside Germanic people?
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2013 at 10:54
Originally posted by TITAN_

Which Iranian speaking people left Persia and lived alongside Germanic people?
 
Persians were a an Iranian-speaking people who migrated to Iran, just look at map to find those Iranians who lived alongside Germanic peoples.
 
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2013 at 13:18
This is a long article on Iranian people and I have found nothing in it that says that Iranians  are related to germans http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Iranian_peoples#History_and_settlement


 it is true that indo iranians shared a relation with indo europeans at one point some where in central asia/steppes, because both are related groups. However I am not sure why do you keep pointing out (Germans) specifically. There was probably relation of Indo Iranians with the Slavic/Russian people at one point, but as they migrated to south in to places like Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, they got mixed with the locals. Today an Iranian, Afghani etc... people are very far from any europeans, except maybe few examples that I posted above
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2013 at 15:27
Originally posted by balochii

This is a long article on Iranian people and I have found nothing in it that says that Iranians  are related to germans http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Iranian_peoples#History_and_settlement


 it is true that indo iranians shared a relation with indo europeans at one point some where in central asia/steppes, because both are related groups. However I am not sure why do you keep pointing out (Germans) specifically. There was probably relation of Indo Iranians with the Slavic/Russian people at one point, but as they migrated to south in to places like Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, they got mixed with the locals. Today an Iranian, Afghani etc... people are very far from any europeans, except maybe few examples that I posted above
 
One of the main reasons that I'm researching on this subject for more than 15 years is that there wasn't any good research about it by Iranians, I have written a 300 pages book in Persian titled "Sakson, son of the Saka", this is mostly about the cultural relation between Iranian and Germanic people, that is in fact a continuation of my own PhD thesis which was "Social and cultural situation of the Scythian city of Sakkez in the seventh century BC".
 
Of course some parts of my book are just translations from some good researches on this subject by the Europeans, like "History of the Anglo-Saxons" by Sharon Turner but I have also mentioned many things in this book that you can hardly find in any other sources, especially about the common origin of Iranian and Germanic mythical history.
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2013 at 12:07
Mythology is a cultural product that travels across civilizations and tribes. It doesn't show much of a connection. If you are looking for elements that prove undeniable cultural connections, you should focus on things like language! To borrow a mythical story is no big deal. To share a sufficient amount of words in particular languages, matters the most!
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2013 at 12:39
Originally posted by TITAN_

Mythology is a cultural product that travels across civilizations and tribes. It doesn't show much of a connection. If you are looking for elements that prove undeniable cultural connections, you should focus on things like language! To borrow a mythical story is no big deal. To share a sufficient amount of words in particular languages, matters the most!
 
Of course Language is more important than Mythology, about two third of my book is about the language, but for proving a strong relation, all cultural elements should be considered.
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2013 at 17:26
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by TITAN_

Mythology is a cultural product that travels across civilizations and tribes. It doesn't show much of a connection. If you are looking for elements that prove undeniable cultural connections, you should focus on things like language! To borrow a mythical story is no big deal. To share a sufficient amount of words in particular languages, matters the most!
 
Of course Language is more important than Mythology, about two third of my book is about the language, but for proving a strong relation, all cultural elements should be considered.

Although Farsi is an Indo-European language, this connection is a bit weak in my opinion. European languages are (almost all of them) close to each other, not that close to Farsi or Sanskrit (let alone Hindi that is influenced by Sanskrit).... 
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2013 at 01:02
Originally posted by TITAN_

Although Farsi is an Indo-European language, this connection is a bit weak in my opinion. European languages are (almost all of them) close to each other, not that close to Farsi or Sanskrit (let alone Hindi that is influenced by Sanskrit).... 
 
Your opinion is wrong, however Persian is just one of Iranian languages, but there is a very strong connection between this language and the original Germanic languages, I have discussed about this thing in several threads in this forrum, you can hardly find any Germanic word with no connection to words in the Iranian languages, this is mostly about sound changes in the Indo-European languages, for example look at this thread with more than 70 pages: Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2013 at 03:57
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by TITAN_

Although Farsi is an Indo-European language, this connection is a bit weak in my opinion. European languages are (almost all of them) close to each other, not that close to Farsi or Sanskrit (let alone Hindi that is influenced by Sanskrit).... 
 
Your opinion is wrong, however Persian is just one of Iranian languages, but there is a very strong connection between this language and the original Germanic languages, I have discussed about this thing in several threads in this forrum, you can hardly find any Germanic word with no connection to words in the Iranian languages, this is mostly about sound changes in the Indo-European languages, for example look at this thread with more than 70 pages: Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?

My opinion is wrong? On the contrary, you seem to be unaware of the academic consensus. 

All European languages are heavily influenced by Latin and Greek. Iranian languages are distant...

From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Indo-European_branches_map.png






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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2013 at 03:59




Source:  http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/language.html
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2013 at 04:04
The truth is that Iranian languages also derive from Proto-Indo-European and they never gave birth to any European language. German is closer to ancient Greek, regarding its grammar, while its vocabulary derives from old Germanic, Latin and Greek. Iranian languages are closer to Indian languages, actually.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2013 at 09:34
Originally posted by TITAN_

The truth is that Iranian languages also derive from Proto-Indo-European and they never gave birth to any European language. German is closer to ancient Greek, regarding its grammar, while its vocabulary derives from old Germanic, Latin and Greek. Iranian languages are closer to Indian languages, actually.
 
No, that is not the truth, I know most of Europeans are proud of the ancient Greek culture, but it is certainly wrong to believe all European cultures were originated from Greece, in fact it can be even said that the influence of the Greek culture on the Iranian culture was more than its influence on the Germanic culture, we see about 600 years after the Greek conquest, the Sassanid kings still wrote their inscriptions in Greek, it shows the people of Persia knew the Greek language, at least as the second language.
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2013 at 14:50
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by TITAN_

The truth is that Iranian languages also derive from Proto-Indo-European and they never gave birth to any European language. German is closer to ancient Greek, regarding its grammar, while its vocabulary derives from old Germanic, Latin and Greek. Iranian languages are closer to Indian languages, actually.
 
No, that is not the truth, I know most of Europeans are proud of the ancient Greek culture, but it is certainly wrong to believe all European cultures were originated from Greece, in fact it can be even said that the influence of the Greek culture on the Iranian culture was more than its influence on the Germanic culture, we see about 600 years after the Greek conquest, the Sassanid kings still wrote their inscriptions in Greek, it shows the people of Persia knew the Greek language, at least as the second language.

I never wrote that European cultures originated from GreeceShocked
There was only an influence that Rome and Greece had on the rest of Europe, mostly linguistic, artistic and scientific. The interaction between Persia and Greece is well known. Zarathustra was known in Greek as Zoroaster, while the word paradise originates from Old Persian, although the prefix para- was probably attested in Greek earlier. 

I do not downplay Persian influence on European cultures at all, as you see. Since Persian, Sanskrit, Latin and Greek are the oldest attested languages in Iran, India, Rome and Greece, respectively, they all share some Proto-Indo-European roots, prefixes etc. But if you actually look into German, you will find much of its grammar seeming like ancient Greek and when it comes to vocabulary, Persian influences are not as many as Greek & Latin. I don't know where to begin, really: Scientific jargon? 
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2013 at 11:41
TITAN, I have nerver talked about a direct relation between Persian and German languages but about the groups of languages that these two languages also belong to, about the Indo-European languages, it is certainly wrong to distinguish them by their geographic locations, for example we know the Tocharian language which was spoken in the north of china was closely related to the Greek and Latin languages, and the same thing can be said about Baltic languages, such as Latvian and Lithuanian, and the Sanskrit language.
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2013 at 13:11
Originally posted by Menumorut




But this is not a racial thing, is rather a form of self-protecting from groups of general lower education and worse behaviour and habits.





It's still bigotry, no matter what the rationalization.
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2013 at 05:07
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

for example we know the Tocharian language which was spoken in the north of china was closely related to the Greek and Latin languages, and the same thing can be said about Baltic languages, such as Latvian and Lithuanian, and the Sanskrit language.

Tocharian, as an Indo-European language had to have some similarities with old European languages such as Greek and Latin. That doesn't prove anything though. When it comes to vocabulary, Latvian or Lithuanian have much more in common with Greek, than with Sanskrit. In fact, I have spent some time comparing Sanskrit and Latin, and I found some similarities.... which are fewer than those found when you compare Latin to Latvian. 



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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2013 at 13:05
Originally posted by TITAN_

Tocharian, as an Indo-European language had to have some similarities with old European languages such as Greek and Latin. That doesn't prove anything though. When it comes to vocabulary, Latvian or Lithuanian have much more in common with Greek, than with Sanskrit. In fact, I have spent some time comparing Sanskrit and Latin, and I found some similarities.... which are fewer than those found when you compare Latin to Latvian. 
 
If you consider sound changes then it can said all Indo-European languages are similar to each other, but Latvian, Lithuanian and Sanskrit are Satem languages and Greek and Latin are Centum languages, it is really not difficult to understand this thing, for example just compare some numerals:
 
Latvian: chetri (4), piechi (5), seshi (6), astoni (8)
Sanskrit: chatur (4), pancha (5), sash (6), asta (8)
Latin: quattuor (4), quinque (5), sex (6), octo (8)
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  Quote Asawar Hazaraspa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2013 at 20:33


I think with all due respect some ideas here about cultural relations are oxymoron and not necessarily based on facts.

This is a history forum so it would be very normal to expect people to talk about history here not talking about hearsays and assumptions. I agree with Cyrus, of course Iranians are more related to other Indo-european cultures in terms of their cultural infrastructures than to some of their present geographical neighbors. Let's ask ourselves why a fact like this is somehow irritating to some, why mainstream readers uncommon with linguistics and history feel uncomfortable about that? I think that would be a better question to ask. Iranians historically have been connected to other IE until the main geographical, obstacles, which changed over millenia for Iranians in particular, and following demographic changes due to migrations and most importantly settlements; set them dramatically apart from mainstream IE cultures in extent that again for an unfamiliar person any connection would the furthest thing. Of course relying on our sense of vision hardly can you find a difference and as you put, automatically you feel closer to Turks and Arabs, cause you feel more at home with them (It's natural thousand year of co-existence) and laugh about any connection to other IE people who are mainly to be found in Europe. But do not forget that:

- In antiquity having fair complexion was not only limited to Germanics or Celts, this is well attested by various Greek and Roman historians. We can conclude that the extent of the lands inhabited by majority of IE people was farther into Central Asia even north of Great wall. 

- That IE languages and people are not only Germans.


I myself always prefer to seek and read for myself rather than basing my reason on what I see ( or more precisely what I can't) I have had many encounters with Iranians unaware of historical facts denying everything just saying "Come on dude! I see more similarities between me and for example Arabs than any other" I'd say Ok that's good but by saying that you can not deny that Persian language is hell of closer to other IE languages like Germanic languages than Arabic to which you feel, think and imagine  more proximity.


Edited by Asawar Hazaraspa - 21-May-2013 at 20:41
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