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Iranian obsession with Nordic features

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  Quote Shamshir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Iranian obsession with Nordic features
    Posted: 14-Feb-2013 at 18:28
Originally posted by Yekta

I do not see them as enemies, I see them as opportunists who see a unjust and unstable government and want to benefit the most from it. They are the ones keeping the IRI alive.


That is an unnecessary distinction. You said it yourself Yekta: They are the ones keeping the IR alive. That is the same IR which is destroying Iran and that justifies me labelling them as "enemies" of my people.


Edited by Shamshir - 14-Feb-2013 at 18:31
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  Quote Yekta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2013 at 18:40
Originally posted by Shamshir

Originally posted by Yekta

I do not see them as enemies, I see them as opportunists who see a unjust and unstable government and want to benefit the most from it. They are the ones keeping the IRI alive.


That is an unnecessary distinction. You said it yourself Yekta: They are the ones keeping the IR alive. That is the same IR which is destroying Iran and that justifies me labelling them as "enemies" of my people.


Not necessarily, they are doing what they think is best for them which is what we should have been doing although, time may show the opposite. I think we're a bit off topic here!
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2013 at 01:54
Originally posted by Yekta

Cyrus,

I like reading your posts and although my health does not permit me to participate more actively I've always learned a lot from you and enjoy reading the topics you pick. Yes, Iranic people are diverse with rich/proud history. Surely we can talk about our past relatives and common cultural/historical heritage. Unfortunately you can not do that without getting the ethnic or self centric view and counter-reaction of the Northern Europeans. You're bound to be marked as a not "wanna be" HOT, as if our world circles around their acceptance. That is what I want to avoid Cyrus and I find it very degenerating and insulting toward Iranians. Strange enough some Africans see middle easterners as some watered-down blacks. What are we to conclude from such color-oriented views?

You can also see this mentioned in different post under this very topic. They even see Eastern Europeans as lightly mixed population. They are IT and the rest of the world is a mixture of this and that + some few IT if you get lucky. So, I don't see why you even want to make that connection. I personally find Turks and Germans more related than any Iranians, have you ever been in Turkish neighborhoods in some parts of Germany? My son and my grandfather are related but my son can't even pronounce my grandfather's name.
 
It really doesn't matter for me what the people of Iran and Germany think about the relation between Iranian and Germanic people because I don't talk about the people of these two countries, an important point is that none of them were the original land of Iranian and Germanic people.
 
Some people even don't know that Turkey was also not the original land of Turks, so they probably won't believe if they hear that Turks are related to the Mongols.
 
 
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  Quote Yekta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2013 at 13:37
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Yekta

Cyrus,

I like reading your posts and although my health does not permit me to participate more actively I've always learned a lot from you and enjoy reading the topics you pick. Yes, Iranic people are diverse with rich/proud history. Surely we can talk about our past relatives and common cultural/historical heritage. Unfortunately you can not do that without getting the ethnic or self centric view and counter-reaction of the Northern Europeans. You're bound to be marked as a not "wanna be" HOT, as if our world circles around their acceptance. That is what I want to avoid Cyrus and I find it very degenerating and insulting toward Iranians. Strange enough some Africans see middle easterners as some watered-down blacks. What are we to conclude from such color-oriented views?

You can also see this mentioned in different post under this very topic. They even see Eastern Europeans as lightly mixed population. They are IT and the rest of the world is a mixture of this and that + some few IT if you get lucky. So, I don't see why you even want to make that connection. I personally find Turks and Germans more related than any Iranians, have you ever been in Turkish neighborhoods in some parts of Germany? My son and my grandfather are related but my son can't even pronounce my grandfather's name.
 
It really doesn't matter for me what the people of Iran and Germany think about the relation between Iranian and Germanic people because I don't talk about the people of these two countries, an important point is that none of them were the original land of Iranian and Germanic people.
 
Some people even don't know that Turkey was also not the original land of Turks, so they probably won't believe if they hear that Turks are related to the Mongols.
 
 


You are talking about a time when Germany and Iran were not formed yet and those people did not call themselves such. Who knows what they did and how they looked or where they came from. In that timeline people had to move a lot so even the word original land would be another absurd concept, where were they before that?

Also comparing some modern images of today's people as a reference to an ancient people we know very little about would be another illusion. Turk's movement in the region compared to other ancient nations is very recent and well known/documented, so, there is nothing new that interest me much.


Edited by Yekta - 16-Feb-2013 at 04:44
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2013 at 15:21
Originally posted by Yekta

 You are talking about a time when Germany and Iran were not formed yet and those people did not call themselves such. Who knows what they did and how they looked or where they came from. In that timeline people had to move a lot so even the world original land would be another absurd concept, where were they before that?

Also comparing some modern images of today's people as a reference to an ancient people we know very little about would be another illusion. Turk's movement in the region compared to other ancient nations is very recent and well known/documented, so, there is nothing new that interest me much.
 
You should be able to distinguish between Nationality and Culture, Kurds in Syria, Tats in Dagestan or Wakhis in China, ... don't call themselves Iranian but we know they are culturally Iranian.
 
As you probably know Ossetians in Russia and Georgia also call themselves Iranian/Ironian, you can assume that by Iranian I mean these people, anyway a name can't change anything!
 
It is really possible to research on different cultures and compare them to each other, some things are preserved in a culture from generation to generation, for example we read in Avesta, the oldest Iranian text, about the original land of Iranians as a cold land in the north, the reason of migration from this land is said to be a sudden climate change, Avesta talks about three successive winters and we read about the same event in the Germanic culture as Fimbulvetr.
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2013 at 01:21
I am not sure about nordic, but some euro features are indeed found in the region, esepically on the border areas of Tajikistan, Pakistan and Afghanistan:

Chitral, Pakistan







Pamir, tajikistan:








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  Quote Yekta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2013 at 03:51
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You should be able to distinguish between Nationality and Culture, Kurds in Syria, Tats in Dagestan or Wakhis in China, ... don't call themselves Iranian but we know they are culturally Iranian.
 
As you probably know Ossetians in Russia and Georgia also call themselves Iranian/Ironian, you can assume that by Iranian I mean these people, anyway a name can't change anything!
 
It is really possible to research on different cultures and compare them to each other, some things are preserved in a culture from generation to generation, for example we read in Avesta, the oldest Iranian text, about the original land of Iranians as a cold land in the north, the reason of migration from this land is said to be a sudden climate change, Avesta talks about three successive winters and we read about the same event in the Germanic culture as Fimbulvetr.


Yes, theoretically we should be able to distinguish between culture and nationality, although we have to see what you mean by culture, religion is a very big part of that so, what was in the past can be very different now or in future.

Practically it is impossible not to mix those two because the people you've mentioned here can be (at least) divided into two different groups. Those who already consider themselves as Iranic/Iranian and those who don't. To get the attention of those who don't, you need strong physical evidence and very hard and solid facts, I'm afraid a few ancient scripts won't do. Also, if the aim is to underline a connection/relation between some people in the past, then, you can not just say, it does not matter what the people of this or that country think. Their reaction matters, their opinion matters and so does their nationality.

Iranians are already linguistically described and defined as Indo-European, more and friendlier relations would be necessary. That is enough for me Cyrus and no offense to any nationality or people here, I like Germans where they are now, you know, making cars, not killing Jews, eating kebob in weekends, traveling to Turkey once or twice a year and I personally, don't want them to be kissing me on the cheek any time soon.

By the way, what do you think about Chechen people?
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  Quote Yekta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2013 at 03:55
Originally posted by balochii

I am not sure about nordic, but some euro features are indeed found in the region, esepically on the border areas of Tajikistan, Pakistan and Afghanistan:


If someone gave me a penny every time they showed me those pictures. LOL
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2013 at 05:27

Originally posted by Yekta

Yes, theoretically we should be able to distinguish between culture and nationality, although we have to see what you mean by culture, religion is a very big part of that so, what was in the past can be very different now or in future.

Practically it is impossible not to mix those two because the people you've mentioned here can be (at least) divided into two different groups. Those who already consider themselves as Iranic/Iranian and those who don't. To get the attention of those who don't, you need strong physical evidence and very hard and solid facts, I'm afraid a few ancient scripts won't do. Also, if the aim is to underline a connection/relation between some people in the past, then, you can not just say, it does not matter what the people of this or that country think. Their reaction matters, their opinion matters and so does their nationality.

Iranians are already linguistically described and defined as Indo-European, more and friendlier relations would be necessary. That is enough for me Cyrus and no offense to any nationality or people here, I like Germans where they are now, you know, making cars, not killing Jews, eating kebob in weekends, traveling to Turkey once or twice a year and I personally, don't want them to be kissing me on the cheek any time soon.

By the way, what do you think about Chechen people?

It is meaningless to say a cultural relation doesn't exist because some people don't know, I have talked in several threads about a strong cultural relation between Persians and Afro-Shirazi people in the east Africa (Tanzania, Kenya, Comoros Islands, ...), of course most of Iranians know almost nothing about it but does it mean this relation should be denied?!

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  Quote Yekta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2013 at 05:51
Are you referring to Zanzibar?
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2013 at 12:44
Originally posted by Yekta

Are you referring to Zanzibar?
 
Not only Zanzibar but from Kismayo in Somalia to Kilimani in Mozambique, there is an important point about the history of this region, for example as you read about the history of Madagascar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Madagascar The written history of Madagascar begins in the 7th century when Shirazi Persians arrived, the same thing can be said about other lands in this region too.
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2013 at 13:09
Originally posted by Yekta

Originally posted by balochii

I am not sure about nordic, but some euro features are indeed found in the region, esepically on the border areas of Tajikistan, Pakistan and Afghanistan:


If someone gave me a penny every time they showed me those pictures. LOL


true, those pics are circulated around a lot, the second blonde girl is very rare in the region, I would say only perhaps 1-2% of the people in the region are that blonde and have pure blue eyes, however the features that the first girl has are much more common, slight reddish/brown hair and some colored eyes with very fair skin (pinkish cheeks) are a very common sight. I have been to Chitral only once and I remember seeing that phenotype a lot in the villages and cities. In fact all areas of northern pakistan, north east afghanistan and southern tajikistan have those features


Edited by balochii - 16-Feb-2013 at 13:20
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  Quote Yekta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2013 at 00:38
I hate repeating my self, who am I to deny anything. You know better than me that Iranic/Iranians have defined themselves as such for who knows how long. They have been around and active, ofcourse there has been interactions with a lot of people but does this mean that Iranians and Zanzibar people had the same origin in some original land somewhere else? You might as well add that those Islands were used (by many nations) for slave trade among other things.
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  Quote Yekta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2013 at 00:42
Originally posted by balochii

Originally posted by Yekta

Originally posted by balochii

I am not sure about nordic, but some euro features are indeed found in the region, esepically on the border areas of Tajikistan, Pakistan and Afghanistan:


If someone gave me a penny every time they showed me those pictures. LOL


true, those pics are circulated around a lot, the second blonde girl is very rare in the region, I would say only perhaps 1-2% of the people in the region are that blonde and have pure blue eyes, however the features that the first girl has are much more common, slight reddish/brown hair and some colored eyes with very fair skin (pinkish cheeks) are a very common sight. I have been to Chitral only once and I remember seeing that phenotype a lot in the villages and cities. In fact all areas of northern pakistan, north east afghanistan and southern tajikistan have those features


Like their dresses, beautiful and colorful people, I wonder why one would, while paging family photo album, cherry pick pictures that appeals to a color fixated audience just to make a point. Our people do not need that kind of attention or relations, it'll fade away when the colors wear off. Seems there are many shades to racism too.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2013 at 06:13
Originally posted by Yekta

I hate repeating my self, who am I to deny anything. You know better than me that Iranic/Iranians have defined themselves as such for who knows how long. They have been around and active, ofcourse there has been interactions with a lot of people but does this mean that Iranians and Zanzibar people had the same origin in some original land somewhere else? You might as well add that those Islands were used (by many nations) for slave trade among other things.
 
It is interesting for me that you never aks me about my reasons and evidences, for example if I say Greeks and the Chinese had the same cultural origin then you will probably say that the Greek or Chinise people don't think so!
 
Of course there have been always some interactions between some people but I talk about a common cultural origin, for example I say the cultural origin of those Armenians who live in Tehran is Armenia, it is clear that after hundreds years there can be some differnces between their language and the language of the people who live in Armenia, but there are many reasons and evidences which show that they have the same culture with the original Armenians.
 
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2013 at 15:07
Originally posted by Yekta

Originally posted by balochii

Originally posted by Yekta

Originally posted by balochii

I am not sure about nordic, but some euro features are indeed found in the region, esepically on the border areas of Tajikistan, Pakistan and Afghanistan:


If someone gave me a penny every time they showed me those pictures. LOL


true, those pics are circulated around a lot, the second blonde girl is very rare in the region, I would say only perhaps 1-2% of the people in the region are that blonde and have pure blue eyes, however the features that the first girl has are much more common, slight reddish/brown hair and some colored eyes with very fair skin (pinkish cheeks) are a very common sight. I have been to Chitral only once and I remember seeing that phenotype a lot in the villages and cities. In fact all areas of northern pakistan, north east afghanistan and southern tajikistan have those features


Like their dresses, beautiful and colorful people, I wonder why one would, while paging family photo album, cherry pick pictures that appeals to a color fixated audience just to make a point. Our people do not need that kind of attention or relations, it'll fade away when the colors wear off. Seems there are many shades to racism too.


well it is usually the European tourists who take such pics, I guess they are intrigued to find blonde hair, blue eyes so far away from europe in the heart of asia

are yo iranian btw?


Edited by balochii - 17-Feb-2013 at 15:08
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  Quote Yekta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2013 at 16:15
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

 
It is interesting for me that you never aks me about my reasons and evidences, for example if I say Greeks and the Chinese had the same cultural origin then you will probably say that the Greek or Chinise people don't think so!
 
Of course there have been always some interactions between some people but I talk about a common cultural origin, for example I say the cultural origin of those Armenians who live in Tehran is Armenia, it is clear that after hundreds years there can be some differnces between their language and the language of the people who live in Armenia, but there are many reasons and evidences which show that they have the same culture with the original Armenians.
 

I don't ask you for evidence because I find you a reasonable person and it's not your evidence I have problem with, its your conclusion that puzzles me. All human beings are, in one sense or another, related. If you're a theist then we are related to Adam and Eve. If you're a evolutionist then we are connected through apes and genes but, none of that helps, we're still having wars and categorized each other in different colors. Not that I share your conclusion but given you are one hundred percent right, how would you like people to react? Will that make them hug us and not make bad movies about us anymore?
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  Quote Yekta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2013 at 16:17
Originally posted by balochii



well it is usually the European tourists who take such pics, I guess they are intrigued to find blonde hair, blue eyes so far away from europe in the heart of asia

are yo iranian btw?


I know Smile

Yes I'm Iranian.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2013 at 03:00
Originally posted by Yekta

I don't ask you for evidence because I find you a reasonable person and it's not your evidence I have problem with, its your conclusion that puzzles me. All human beings are, in one sense or another, related. If you're a theist then we are related to Adam and Eve. If you're a evolutionist then we are connected through apes and genes but, none of that helps, we're still having wars and categorized each other in different colors. Not that I share your conclusion but given you are one hundred percent right, how would you like people to react? Will that make them hug us and not make bad movies about us anymore?
 
Is it really too difficult to understand that some poeple have more cultural relations to each other than others?!!
 
Yekta, I know you have just focused on modern countries and relations, especially about Iran and Germany, you talked about wars, if you read the history then you will see that Iranians have fought against several different European countries but not Germany, in fact these two countries had really good relations, you should read about the relation between Bismarck and Amir Kabir, not about the current relation between Germany and the anti-nationalist regime of Mullahs in Iran.
 
It is interesting to know that Hilter was the fist western leader who used the name of Iran, instead of Persia, and unlike some other western leaders, he really respected the Iranian culture:
 
 
And lets read what the father of modern Iran said about Iran and Germany (Of course his saying is really very racist):

“Germany was our age-old and natural ally, Love of Germany was synonymous with love for Iran. The sound of German officers’ footsteps was heard on the shores of the Nile. Swastika flags were flying from the outskirts of Moscow to the peaks of the Caucasus Mts. Iranian patriots eagerly awaited the arrival of their old allies. My friend and I would spin tales about the grandeur of the superior race. We considered Germany the chosen representative of this race in Europe and Iran its representative in Asia. The right to life and role was ours. Others had no choice but submission and slavery. We discarded the old maps and remade Iran into a country larger than what it was in Achaemenian times.”, Reza Shah Pahlavi


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 18-Feb-2013 at 03:05
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  Quote Shamshir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2013 at 06:35
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

, you should read about the relation between Bismarck and Amir Kabir, not about the current relation between Germany and the anti-nationalist regime of Mullahs in Iran.


Be careful, dear Cyrus, we don't want another martyr. Smile
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