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Toltec
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Topic: Zionism: racist ideology Posted: 28-Nov-2012 at 06:23 |
Originally posted by Rocky
I strongly support Israel.
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I strongly support the US, I want everyone to have free state funded healthcare. What I can't understand is why the Republican Party doesn't support the US.
Saying I support Israel has no meaning, within Israel like within the US there are many political positions and saying one of them is supporting Israel doesn't work.
I support Israel, I support the Israel of Isaac Rabin, like a lot of Israeli's and I oppose the nazi-esque ideology of Benjamin Netanyahu. You are not supporting Israel you are supporting one political position in Israel and then misrepresenting it as the only position.
Edited by Toltec - 28-Nov-2012 at 06:24
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Nick1986
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Posted: 28-Nov-2012 at 07:45 |
"Nazi" might be taking it a bit too far Toltec. Modern Israel is more like Apartheid-era South Africa or pre-war Russia with its ghettos and pogroms against the Palestinians
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Challenger2
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Posted: 28-Nov-2012 at 07:48 |
Originally posted by Rocky
Originally posted by red clay
Originally posted by unclefred
I suppose there is a reason why the banned members from other forums are collecting here. |
Perhaps it's because we allow more freedom of expression here than other forums.
I responded to Nick's post in much the same attitude as it was written. An opposing view, not nes. a popular one, but valid. If I had perceived racism I would have stepped on it then.
And it's not surprising that an American far right winger needs an update on freedom of speech. It's okay as long as it agrees with their deluded ideologies, but otherwise..........
Anyone who has been here over a period of time knows my stand on Racism, and anyone with half a brain who had read the entire thread would have known it wasn't racist. Unless they just wanted to stir up trouble where there wasn't any.
Historum must be quiet right now or something.
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As an American conservative, a Libertarian in fact, I grow weary of the far right label. I am liberal on certain issues, in a classical sense, but I am economically conservative, and I strongly support Israel. Calling conservatives "extremists" and "racists" are other effective tools used by the main stream media in the US. Maybe that is why I feel a bond with Israel, as I have seen our media turn on them in recent years.
I saw a funny cartoon on American Thinker a couple of days ago, a fake newspaper from 1943. Well, it would be funny I guess if the subject matter were not so dark. I will try to post it, but this is my first picture post to AE, so I am not sure it will work.
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Yes, it's a funny parody but if you replace all references to "Jew" and "Jews" with "Palestinians" and "Mulsims" and "Germans" and "Nazis" With "Israelis" and "Zionists" you get a chillingly accurate portrayal of what's really going on in Gaza and the Occupied Territories.
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Challenger2
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Posted: 28-Nov-2012 at 07:50 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
"Nazi" might be taking it a bit too far Toltec. Modern Israel is more like Apartheid-era South Africa or pre-war Russia with its ghettos and pogroms against the Palestinians
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Don't remember the Russians or the South Africans using artillery and aircraft against Jews and Blacks, do you?
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Nick1986
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Posted: 28-Nov-2012 at 08:07 |
Originally posted by Challenger2
[QUOTE=Nick1986]"Nazi" might be taking it a bit too far Toltec. Modern Israel is more like Apartheid-era South Africa or pre-war Russia with its ghettos and pogroms against the Palestinians
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Don't remember the Russians or the South Africans using artillery and aircraft against Jews and Blacks, do you? [/QUOTE They probably would if the Jews and blacks ever tried to defend themselves on a large scale (in contrast to Mandela's nonviolence). Remember what the Russians did to the Poles when they rose up in the early 19th century?
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 28-Nov-2012 at 13:54 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
Originally posted by Challenger2
[QUOTE=Nick1986]"Nazi" might be taking it a bit too far Toltec. Modern Israel is more like Apartheid-era South Africa or pre-war Russia with its ghettos and pogroms against the Palestinians
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Don't remember the Russians or the South Africans using artillery and aircraft against Jews and Blacks, do you? [/QUOTE They probably would if the Jews and blacks ever tried to defend themselves on a large scale (in contrast to Mandela nonviolence). Remember what the Russians did to the Poles when they rose up in the early 19th century?
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Not probably Nick-san. Already done. Russians used it in the Siedlce (Poland) pogrom. 1906. And there were earlier examples in the 19th ce pogroms... Warsaw for one, iirc. standard explanations ie. terroriss,t revolutionaries and or dissidents. SA's used aerial/missiles in their attack on the ANC terrorists in Mozambique in 83. And there were others. Zambia. Botswana. Zimbabwe. All against terrorists. So ....oops there goes that myth it was never done...eh. Hqs in the field Vic: Black Jack Camp Ground Apache NF, AZ.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Toltec
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Posted: 28-Nov-2012 at 14:13 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
"Nazi" might be taking it a bit too far Toltec. |
Gerald Kaufman agrees with me.
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 28-Nov-2012 at 14:31 |
So? He only impresses like minded and or his devotee's. Yawn......I already know what he remains. A mouth piece for disaffected-anti IG policies-Islamist, terrorist, apologists. An obvious overt supporter of Hamas. Where is he from? Oh ya...Euro-land. In this case Britain. Yawn. Aint had my lunch coffee yet. Hqs in the Field Vic: Black Jack Camp Ground Apache NF, AZ.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Toltec
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Posted: 28-Nov-2012 at 17:16 |
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis
Where is he from? Oh ya...Euro-land. In this case Britain.
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Actually he's from, not-america, a place where everyone thinks like him. and as you say a mouthpiece for his 6.5 billion like minded devotees.
I think you forget you hold a minor extremist position, held only by a subset of Americans and a subset of Israelis and few more. If you pass me a magnifying glass I'll examine it in detail one day.
Edited by Toltec - 28-Nov-2012 at 17:26
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 28-Nov-2012 at 17:32 |
Originally posted by Toltec
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis
Where is he from? Oh ya...Euro-land. In this case Britain.
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Actually he's from, not-america, a place where everyone thinks like him. and as you say a mouthpiece for his 6.5 billion like minded devotees. |
Nah that's an overgeneralization bullshit line. And a superb bit of obfuscation, distortion and denial of the obvious..let alone the real facts. Because only in your mind do you think the globe kneels in acceptance at his anti-Israeli dictums and blatantly petulant, Islamist-terrorist, apologist philosophy. He's nothing more then a Hamas whiner. Oh btw... the pop is now at 6,973, 738,433 and going up by the second. Drink some coffee.....  Hqs in the Field Vic: Black Jack Camp Ground Apache NF, AZ.
Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 28-Nov-2012 at 17:36
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Rocky
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Posted: 28-Nov-2012 at 18:21 |
Originally posted by Toltec
Originally posted by Rocky
I strongly support Israel.
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I strongly support the US, I want everyone to have free state funded healthcare. What I can't understand is why the Republican Party doesn't support the US.
Saying I support Israel has no meaning, within Israel like within the US there are many political positions and saying one of them is supporting Israel doesn't work.
I support Israel, I support the Israel of Isaac Rabin, like a lot of Israeli's and I oppose the nazi-esque ideology of Benjamin Netanyahu. You are not supporting Israel you are supporting one political position in Israel and then misrepresenting it as the only position.
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There is no such thing as free state funded healthcare if you work for a living. It comes out of your paycheck just the same. In the US, if you are not insured, you go to the emergency room. People are not denied treatment because they do not have coverage. Those that pay pick up the cost for those who cannot through increased premiums. The only issue in America is whether or not we want the state to run things, and believe me I for one do not trust our incompetent government to do anything right.
As for saying that I support Israel has no meaning, I can say it does to me. I have supported them historically with my tax dollars, although the current US regime seems to grow more and more anti-Israel every day.
As for BiBi Netanyahu, I have watched the political news shows in America for decades now, and I like the man. I do not consider him a nazi, or evil. I believe he is an honorable man who is defending his country from its enemies.
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Toltec
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Posted: 28-Nov-2012 at 20:22 |
Originally posted by Rocky
. I have supported them historically with my tax dollars, although the current US regime seems to grow more and more anti-Israel every day.
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Obama just gave Israel 30 Billion Dollars of the US defence budget. I wouldn't call that supporting Israel less.
In fact, that's 30 billion of the defence budget, not aid, not additional money, 30 billion taken away from the US defence budget, cuts made in the US military and the money given to Israel instead. This counts as really supporting Israel extremely strongly when it's to the detriment of your own country's defence. Your tax dollars are still supporting Israel.
Edited by Toltec - 28-Nov-2012 at 20:26
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Rocky
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Posted: 28-Nov-2012 at 20:33 |
Originally posted by Toltec
Originally posted by Rocky
. I have supported them historically with my tax dollars, although the current US regime seems to grow more and more anti-Israel every day.
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Obama just gave Israel 30 Billion Dollars of the US defence budget. I wouldn't call that supporting Israel less.
Also to be clear, that's 30 billion of the defence budget, not aid, not additional money, 30 billion taken away from the US defence budget, cuts made in the US military and the money given to Israel instead. Your tax dollars are still supporting Israel. |
I have seen Obama snub Bibi Netanyahu, even though our other presidents of the last few decades would not have done so, except for Jimmy Carter. I do not deny that there is still support, I only argue that there is less support, and that I feel that the current administration has sympathies that are not pro-Israel, but pro-Muslim instead.
I realize that my support of Israel probably seems quite arbitrary to you considering that I am not Jewish. I feel the same way about your support for the Palestinians, as in what is the motivation. It is not about human rights on either side of the argument. We have two mortal enemies, locked in a struggle that existed before we were born, and will most likely last long after you and I have passed on.
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Toltec
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Posted: 28-Nov-2012 at 21:28 |
Originally posted by Rocky
Originally posted by Toltec
Originally posted by Rocky
. I have supported them historically with my tax dollars, although the current US regime seems to grow more and more anti-Israel every day.
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Obama just gave Israel 30 Billion Dollars of the US defence budget. I wouldn't call that supporting Israel less.
Also to be clear, that's 30 billion of the defence budget, not aid, not additional money, 30 billion taken away from the US defence budget, cuts made in the US military and the money given to Israel instead. Your tax dollars are still supporting Israel. |
I have seen Obama snub Bibi Netanyahu, even though our other presidents of the last few decades would not have done so, except for Jimmy Carter. I do not deny that there is still support, I only argue that there is less support, and that I feel that the current administration has sympathies that are not pro-Israel, but pro-Muslim instead.
I realize that my support of Israel probably seems quite arbitrary to you considering that I am not Jewish. I feel the same way about your support for the Palestinians, as in what is the motivation. It is not about human rights on either side of the argument. We have two mortal enemies, locked in a struggle that existed before we were born, and will most likely last long after you and I have passed on. |
I haven't said I support the Palestinians. People who claim to support the Palestinians are extremists, the same as people who claim to support the Israelis.
Most people in this post are supporting the two states solution, while a couple are supporting the Israeli extremists and none the Palestinian extremists.
Edited by Toltec - 28-Nov-2012 at 21:29
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Challenger2
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Posted: 29-Nov-2012 at 06:03 |
Originally posted by Toltec
...I haven't said I support the Palestinians. People who claim to support the Palestinians are extremists, the same as people who claim to support the Israelis... |
Beg to differ, old boy, I support the Palestinians but I don't consider myself an "extremist" in any way shape or form. I even voted Lib-Dem in the last election (sorry!  )
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Toltec
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Posted: 29-Nov-2012 at 07:13 |
I did say 'claim' with the definition of 'claim' being gone into above. Claiming and actually doing so are very different.
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Nick1986
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Posted: 29-Nov-2012 at 07:50 |
Me too. I beleive the Palestinians should have their own independent state, but strongly oppose Islamism and other types of dictatorship
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Challenger2
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Posted: 29-Nov-2012 at 08:09 |
Originally posted by Toltec
I did say 'claim' with the definition of 'claim' being gone into above. Claiming and actually doing so are very different. |
Fair point. The fact that some neo-nazi and groups have "attached" themselves to the Palestinian cause just to promote their anti-semitic agenda, has damaged the Palestinian case in the world arena
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Nick1986
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Posted: 30-Nov-2012 at 07:47 |
The British government is considering recognising Palestine as a legitimate state. Better late than never http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/27/uk-ready-to-back-palestine-statehood
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Challenger2
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Posted: 30-Nov-2012 at 10:10 |
It's funny how the Palestinians have to jump through "precondition" hoops to get basically nothing substantial, while the Zionist colonists get billions of dollars for committing crimes against humanity and ignoring international law. Still, according to the lastest U.N. vote there are now only 8 countries in the world that actually support the Zionist colony. Perhaps, with any luck the Zionist experiment will soon be consigned to the dustbin of history.
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