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Who murdered Meriwether Lewis

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Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who murdered Meriwether Lewis
    Posted: 03-Oct-2012 at 16:56
Still a mystery. Was it  General James Wilkinson whom he was to replace as Terr. Governor of Louisiana?
 
 
 
A conspiracy? For the monies he was carrying by Grinder the innkeeper? Bandits on the legendary extremely dangerous Natchez Trail.
 
Still unanswered.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 03-Oct-2012 at 17:02
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Bobby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2012 at 15:19
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Still a mystery. Was it  General James Wilkinson whom he was to replace as Terr. Governor of Louisiana?
 
 
 
A conspiracy? For the monies he was carrying by Grinder the innkeeper? Bandits on the legendary extremely dangerous Natchez Trail.
 
Still unanswered.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
From everything I've read Lewis's death was a suicide. He was a well known drunk who had mental issues.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2012 at 19:13
And therein lies the mystery...newer and recently discovered evidence now discounts that theorem.
Whether you accept or disagree with the analysis of that evidence remains yours.


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 16-Oct-2012 at 19:14
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2012 at 04:38
Lewis suffered from depression for years, but I wouldn't name this "mental issues". As for the drinking, it's comming among people with depression, they try to fix themselves in this way, especially in time when the very concept of depressin was unknown to start with.

However, the way he died doesn't look like a siuside to me - for one, a suicide typically shoot oneselves once, not several times all over one's body; and then crowl somwhere to die, as they want that, not roam around asking for this and that. Besides, his behavior before being shot wasn't exactly a suicidal one, more like a guy going on a trip, not intending to shoot himself in the guts on some lonesome path.

Anyway, only the fact that a guy was suffering from depression is not a fully sufficient reason to claim his quite suspissious death as a suicide, IMHO.


Edited by Don Quixote - 18-Oct-2012 at 04:41
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2012 at 07:19
If you become very depressed, or feel your life has become unbearable and become depressed, now I think most people would consider such things as being mental issues. Is it possible such things could make you want to kill yourself? Meriwether Lewis had friends who were said to have been aware of his depressive state, so maybe he was aware people were talking about his mental state. If that was you, might you become paranoid and withdrawn? Might you find that your mind has become very confused and unable to process things normally? These things are possible, but then again if there's a conspiracy then the conspirators might want to have people foster these notions. 
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  Quote Bobby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2012 at 12:55
[QUOTE=Centrix Vigilis] And therein lies the mystery...newer and recently discovered evidence now discounts that theorem.
Whether you accept or disagree with the analysis of that evidence remains yours.
[/Q
 
From the Smithsonian article you included:
 
'His friends assumed it was suicide. Before he left St. Louis, Lewis had given several associates the power to distribute his possessions in the event of his death; while traveling, he composed a will. Lewis had reportedly attempted to take his own life several times a few weeks earlier and was known to suffer from what Jefferson called “sensible depressions of mind.” Clark had also observed his companion’s melancholy states. “I fear the weight of his mind has overcome him,” he wrote after receiving word of Lewis’s fate.'
So he composed a will, had attempted suicide before, and had mental illness. That is a trifecta for suicide. So he was shot twice, once in teh abdomen, and once in the head, eminently possible for someone to perform on himself. What other evidence am I missing?

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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2012 at 14:01
The evidence for murder and not suicide is succintly and adroitly examined in The Death of Meriwether Lewis: A Historic Crime Scene Investigation by James E. Starrs and Kira Gale (River Junction Press, 2009). Begin there.
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2012 at 14:04
Many people get depressed, so what? This is not a menatl illness, not yet. For a depression to be considered a mental ilness it has to be a constant state, and a person not to be able to manage his/her own day without medication etc, then it can be called mental ilness. Most people get depressed frm time to time, but they don't commit suicides left and right. Obviously, Lewis wasn't as bad and was functioning quite well, and without medications too.

Many people have their will done, even in their 40s, this seems like common sense to me, not a prelude to suicide. Gee, I'd do my own will, if I had something to put in it!

BTW, no suicidal person would shoot himself in the guts, it's the worse possible way to day, very slow. The obcective of a suicide is to do the job in the fastest possible way, not to shoot oneself full of holes that will only make one die slow and most painfully.

So, no, the said above is not enough ground for claiming a suicide in my book.


Edited by Don Quixote - 18-Oct-2012 at 14:06
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2012 at 14:57
Originally posted by Bobby

From the Smithsonian article you included:
 
'His friends assumed it was suicide. Before he left St. Louis, Lewis had given several associates the power to distribute his possessions in the event of his death; while traveling, he composed a will. Lewis had reportedly attempted to take his own life several times a few weeks earlier and was known to suffer from what Jefferson called “sensible depressions of mind.” Clark had also observed his companion’s melancholy states. “I fear the weight of his mind has overcome him,” he wrote after receiving word of Lewis’s fate.'
So he composed a will, had attempted suicide before, and had mental illness. That is a trifecta for suicide. So he was shot twice, once in teh abdomen, and once in the head, eminently possible for someone to perform on himself. What other evidence am I missing?

I think that at the most we can only say that they can be a factor, or might show a smoking gun as they say. However looking at what friends had said, and checking definitions of mental illness, it would seem that Meriwether Lewis needed some help. Here is a definition from an organization called NAMI:

What is Mental Illness: Mental Illness Facts

Mental illnesses are medical conditions that disrupt a person's thinking, feeling, mood, ability to relate to others and daily functioning. Just as diabetes is a disorder of the pancreas, mental illnesses are medical conditions that often result in a diminished capacity for coping with the ordinary demands of life.............

http://www.nami.org/template.cfm?section=about_mental_illness

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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2012 at 08:35
Well, Meriwhether Lewis proved his salt and his copying with many stuff of life, his geographical achievements on on the last place. I'd like people to check their own life achievements before talking who coped sucessfully with life and who didn't; especially when we talk about figures with immense historical imprortance, that really did great things in their lifetime.

So, I don't see any reason he to be accused in having mental ilness per se. As I said, a simple depression is a case to many apople in varied parts of their lives, and as long as a person can function without drugs, that Lewis didn't use for sure, he or she doesn't have mental illness.


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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2012 at 09:46
Meriwether Lewis was know to be using self medication, and one of the most common crutches for those suffering mental illness, due to them finding what is happening around them to be unbearable, alcohol.
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  Quote Bobby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2012 at 13:01
Originally posted by Don Quixote

Many people get depressed, so what? This is not a menatl illness, not yet. For a depression to be considered a mental ilness it has to be a constant state, and a person not to be able to manage his/her own day without medication etc, then it can be called mental ilness. Most people get depressed frm time to time, but they don't commit suicides left and right. Obviously, Lewis wasn't as bad and was functioning quite well, and without medications too.

Many people have their will done, even in their 40s, this seems like common sense to me, not a prelude to suicide. Gee, I'd do my own will, if I had something to put in it!

BTW, no suicidal person would shoot himself in the guts, it's the worse possible way to day, very slow. The obcective of a suicide is to do the job in the fastest possible way, not to shoot oneself full of holes that will only make one die slow and most painfully.

So, no, the said above is not enough ground for claiming a suicide in my book.
He had already attempted suicide, he was drinking heavily, he made out a will just before his death, and the overwhelming majority of historians call his death a suicide.
 
I don't think you can place yourself in the position of a suicidal person by saying 'no suicidal person would shoot himself in the guts', the act of ending ones life by one's own is unfathomable to most of us. BY definition that person is not in a rational state,  thus you are claiming he wouldn't have made such an irrational decision to shott himself in the gut. It is a non sequiter. Many people who kill themselves do not do so in the fastest way possible. Again, you are assuming a rational mind, clearly suicides, excepting euthenasia suicides, are not performed by rational individuals, they are mentally ill by definition.
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2012 at 13:40
Alcohol is not a medication, it's a cultural habit for many cultures. We are talking 18-19 century, when alcohol was definitely a cultural habit and nothing bad was seen it it; nor was it seen as a medication.

Bobby, my point here is that it doesn't really matter if Lewis had problems with a depression or had suicidal attempts before, this is a red herring in the case; what matters is if the crime seen supports suicide.

In other words, to give an example, I may be the most depressed person in the world, live by medication, seldom come out of a hospital, and have a numerous attempts for a suicide, including one with a chaisawDead/sorry, couldn't think of a worse possible way to commit a suicide/....but if there is a crime scene on which someone shoots me in the head, them I haven't comitted suicide, no?

The info CV proposes here deals exacttly with new research on the crime scene, and from that POV it doesn't matter if Lewis was this or that if the crime seen doesn't support it. So, why don't we concentrate on what his info has to offer, instead of assuming what poor Meriweather was capable of and what not?

BTW, the decisuon to commit a suicide is seldom done only under emotional stress and is seldom done in unreasonable manner - at least this is what my books of psychology say. In most cases it's a rational decision, done in a business-like way, /whan done to be done, not theatrics, of course/, especialy when done by men, let alone men with military background.
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  Quote Bobby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2012 at 13:59
Originally posted by Don Quixote

Alcohol is not a medication, it's a cultural habit for many cultures. We are talking 18-19 century, when alcohol was definitely a cultural habit and nothing bad was seen it it; nor was it seen as a medication.

Bobby, my point here is that it doesn't really matter if Lewis had problems with a depression or had suicidal attempts before, this is a red herring in the case; what matters is if the crime seen supports suicide.

In other words, to give an example, I may be the most depressed person in the world, live by medication, seldom come out of a hospital, and have a numerous attempts for a suicide, including one with a chaisawDead/sorry, couldn't think of a worse possible way to commit a suicide/....but if there is a crime scene on which someone shoots me in the head, them I haven't comitted suicide, no?

The info CV proposes here deals exacttly with new research on the crime scene, and from that POV it doesn't matter if Lewis was this or that if the crime seen doesn't support it. So, why don't we concentrate on what his info has to offer, instead of assuming what poor Meriweather was capable of and what not?

BTW, the decisuon to commit a suicide is seldom done only under emotional stress and is seldom done in unreasonable manner - at least this is what my books of psychology say. In most cases it's a rational decision, done in a business-like way, /whan done to be done, not theatrics, of course/, especialy when done by men, let alone men with military background.
Well there's this from the Historical society of North Dakota:
 

'Meriwether Lewis’s death has been a source of speculation for many years, often with the mistaken notion that “great men” do not take their own lives, and that suicide blights the memory of a great life. However, those closest to Lewis, Thomas Jefferson and William Clark, fully accepted the reports of suicide. Jefferson reported that Lewis’s family had a history of what is believed to be manic-depression (bipolar disorder), and that he had been subject to bouts of deep depression since his youth.

“Governor Lewis had from early life been subject to hypocondriac [sic] affections. It was a constitutional disposition in all the nearer branches of the family of his name, it was more immediately inherited by him from his father...While he lived with me in Washington, I observed at times sensible depressions of mind, but knowing their constitutional source, I estimated their course by what I had seen in the family.”

Clark likewise reported that Lewis had bouts with euphoria and depression prior to his death, had become deeply in debt, drank heavily and possibly used opium–all symptoms of bipolar disorder. When Lewis’s integrity was questioned over billing as a result of his time as Governor of Louisiana, he left St. Louis deeply troubled and attempted suicide on the boat ride south. A few days later, October 9, 1809, at a small inn on the Natchez Trace southwest of Nashville, Lewis apparently shot himself in despair.

It should be noted, however, that there is the possibility that Lewis suffered from malaria, a disease that is known, in its later stages, to cause forms of dementia and erratic behavior. Whether from depression or malaria, Lewis’s death at so young an age was a tragedy of the first order. It also caused him to be relatively forgotten by the public at large until the end of the 19th century, when historians and the public again looked at the remarkable achievements of the Corps of Discovery, its Captains, and especially Meriwether Lewis himself.'

So now we enter two more factors, a bi-polar disorder, which was apparently a familial trait, AND possibly malaria, which could also cause dementia. Looks more and more like a suicide to me.
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2012 at 14:00
I should say that the whole case of Lewis' suiside was build on the assumption that he commited one - by his friends. Now, there was a word play on what assumption is - and one should try to avoid such as much as one can. Otherwise we should just go on what we think and assume based on whatever and spit loud and profuse on all kind of facts that we may come upon on our way.

But after all history is supposed to be based on facts, no?

In other words, what Clark and Jefferson privately thought remains nothing but assumption - as wrong as this one that great men don't take away their own lives.


Edited by Don Quixote - 19-Oct-2012 at 14:02
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2012 at 22:07
Well if Meriwether Lewis suffered from a bi-polar disorder, a mental illness, then the behaviour he is said to have shown, including suicide attempts, shouldn't be too much of a surprise. I have recently met and spoken to someone with a very similar disposition, who to date has tried to kill themselves three or four times. The kind of damage such a person can inflict on themselves while in these fits of depression is frightening, I know I've seen extensive scarring from such acts. They too have been known to self-medicate with alcohol and other drugs.
Can you imagine yourself being in a suicidal frame of mind, and you want to kill yourself now, or you feel very depressed because you consider that your life has become worthless. I think it's terrible, but there are many people suffering metal conditions out there who have such thoughts, and go through life unnoticed, or are self-deluding themselves for years on end.
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2012 at 11:08
It's a very fickle thing to try to assess the mental state of someone who is dead for some centuries now and none of whoever is trying to make a psychological profile of this person had the honor to meet him alive. Human psychology is a very slippery thing and it's a hard thing to evaluate a person alive, let alone one dead, and all what is put in such musings are nothing but assumptions.

Besides, an assumption that everyone who has change on moods, has debt, and drink, sufferes from bipolar disorder only shows lack of understanding of what bipolar disorder is; one can use some textbooks to read on that condition. If we were to accept such an arch-simplification, then every second American is bipolar, considerig the amount of various debts most Americans spend their lives having.

Again, what CV proposed in this thread was newfound info about the crime scene, I propose we respect his input instead of running in circles with endless assumptions of the mental state of a guy that none of us has met, and who notwithstanding of all assumed mental problems beats all of us with his accumulated life achievements. A person who cannot control him mental state or cannot deal with life in an era without any mental help available wouldn't be able to achieve what Meriweather Lewis did; so any comparing with whoever knew who are immaterial and red herrings.




Edited by Don Quixote - 20-Oct-2012 at 11:27
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2012 at 11:39
Despite my archslow net I'll make a point posting here some highlights of the links CV posted, which deal with facts, not with assumptions.

"...Some insisted that a coroner's inquest had been held and determined that Lewis was a victim of a homicide based on the site of his wounds and the absence of powder burn marks. ..."

"...Another story from the exhumation of his body in the 1840s claims that Lewis suffered a wound in the back of the head. Pistols then had elongated barrels and this was seen as proof of foul play since such a gunshot would have required the movements of a talented contortionist...."http://www.hnn.us/articles/1758.html
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2012 at 12:00
On the other hand, one of the leading documents that support the suicide version, the so called Russel Statement, has proven to be a forgery:
"...Ever since Donald Jackson published the so-called “Russell Statement” in his 1962 edition of the Letters of the Lewis and Clark Expedition, it has served as a leading document supporting the suicide theory. Jackson discovered this document, which was later proven to be a forgery, in the papers of Jonathan Williams at the University of Indiana Lilly Library.

The “Russell Statement” was examined by two document examiners at the Coroner’s Inquest in 1996 who certified it was not in the handwriting of either Russell or Williams. Its authenticity had been questioned as far back as 1961, when author Vardis Fisher corresponded with Donald Jackson and told him that that the language and content was very unlike anything Russell had ever written. Its contents are in the familiar ranting hyperbole of General Wilkinson. It contains lies that are directly contradicted by the authentic letters that Major Russell wrote to President Jefferson giving an account of Lewis’s stay at Fort Pickering and what he had been told of Lewis’s last days of life after he left the fort. Major Russell was in command of Fort Pickering and a friend of Lewis’s.

So, why did General Wilkinson chose to write a false document in the name of Major Russell, claiming that Lewis had tried to commit suicide twice while en route to Fort Pickering and that he had “destroyed himself in the most cool, Desperate and Barbarian-like manner.”..."http://www.lewisandclarktravel.com/index.php/site/motive_for_russell_statement_forgery/

Besides this was brought to attention 2 years after Lewis's death. So what is the point of it. and why make a forgery to press n that Lewis had committed suicide attempts? Weere there really such attempts, or all that we have to support that is a forgery that may well perpetuate a myth along the timeline, untill it's considered the very truth?


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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2012 at 12:59
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

The evidence for murder and not suicide is succintly and adroitly examined in The Death of Meriwether Lewis: A Historic Crime Scene Investigation by James E. Starrs and Kira Gale (River Junction Press, 2009). Begin there.

I found it online and started reading it; it can be downloaded here
PDF] 

download file - The Death of Meriwether Lewis - XAVIANTVISION

xaviantvision.com/live/video.../DeathofMLewis.pdf?...
Формат на файла: PDF/Adobe Acrobat

Thanks for the info, CVSmile.

Here a key info from the cited book:
"...There is no direct evidence of any suicide
attempt during Lewis’ life...."pg. 89

So, we can scratch this one out from Lewis' file; and this ansewrs the question I posted in my previous post - the story that Lewis committed suicide apetmts before are a prodict of falsification and rejuslting for it false myths.

Also in the same book there is a very well supported with original letters report of the last activities of Lewis - like buying land for his mom to come libe close to him, tapping maple trees, boring only 2 holes so in few weeks can do more, makings loans and paying on them - all in all the activities of a person who plans to live, not to die.


Edited by Don Quixote - 20-Oct-2012 at 14:38
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