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Seleucus Nikator I |
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Delenda est Roma 
Colonel 
Suspended Joined: 10-Jul-2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 541 |
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 Topic: Seleucus Nikator IPosted: 01-Sep-2012 at 16:53 |
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Welcome.
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Don Quixote
Tsar 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 29-Dec-2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4734 |
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Posted: 01-Sep-2012 at 16:34 |
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Thanks
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Delenda est Roma
Colonel
Suspended Joined: 10-Jul-2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 541 |
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Posted: 01-Sep-2012 at 15:38 |
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Wiki is an ok starting point the sources check out. Anyway look at the battle of Ipsus or the fact he conquered a very large empire starting with 2,000 men.
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Don Quixote
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 29-Dec-2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4734 |
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Posted: 01-Sep-2012 at 15:33 |
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You mean their skill in surviving? Maybe. I haven't yet srated thinking about Seleukus in terms of mere skill. I think I have to read something on the matter before coming up wth some reasonable opinion. Do you hav esomething online on him? I'll check Questia to see it it has.
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Delenda est Roma
Colonel
Suspended Joined: 10-Jul-2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 541 |
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Posted: 01-Sep-2012 at 15:16 |
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You don't have to like someone to admire their skill. At least I don't.
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Don Quixote
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 29-Dec-2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4734 |
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Posted: 01-Sep-2012 at 13:26 |
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No, I can't accuse him for it, but I can't like him either.
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Delenda est Roma
Colonel
Suspended Joined: 10-Jul-2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 541 |
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Posted: 01-Sep-2012 at 12:43 |
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Yet can we fault Seleukos for it? He comitted no attrocities and was a good ruler. His military skill was just below Alexander.
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Don Quixote
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 29-Dec-2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4734 |
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Posted: 01-Sep-2012 at 12:40 |
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OK, I'll continue with my opinion here.
As I said, I personllay don't like him, because I fiind him too scrupleless. Does a murder make a mn something less than great? It depends, I guess. I am the staounchest supporter on the idea that we cannot bring our morals in lives of people who lived centuries ago and expect tyhem to follow them; still there are some lines that, to me at least, mean something. I respect the friendhsip bond between military people, nd for me to kill a brother-in-arms is like the greatest treason. Alexander killed reltives and subordinates, but I don't remember him killing for example, Hesphestion. The whole story of the generals of Alexander killing his wife and kid and cutting the empire in pieces iis a very sad story for me, can hardly like any of them. Allexandre created something great, and they made a puzzle out of it, instead of stabiizing his empire. In the case I'm probably subjective - and I don't claim objectivity here - but this is my opinion anyway. |
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Centrix Vigilis
Emperor 
Joined: 18-Aug-2006 Location: The Llano Online Status: Offline Posts: 7392 |
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Posted: 30-Aug-2012 at 18:36 |
1. Reference your first black bold post. Nonsense a point was presented by another member I further elucidated on it. 2. Reference your second black bold post. Nonsense. I point out the obvious reference your maturity and the facts reference your credentials. This is neither to be viewed as condescending or derogatory in nature other then by yourself. 3. Reference your third black bold post. Nonsense. what I did... was state: ''And in conclusion what's not going to happen here is another example of your willingness to participate in circular augmentative communication for the purposes of satisfying your ego. Mine is already secure. Besides that constitutes trolling and you already know what happens to them. So move on from here without me.'' You did not. Because you specifically addresed the post to me. And merely continued it again for the sake of argumentative rhetoric in a surreptitious effort to defend yourself. As to whether you interpret it as condescending is immaterial. I then went on and stated this: ''And if you feel your unjustifiably being singled out... then take it to another moderator for examination and resolution. Because my comments to you on this thread have not been as a moderator but as a member.'' You did not. You are correct; I did point out your lapses in objectivity and your rigidity in accepting counter viewpoints and opinions. But they are certainly not groundless nor are they not without veracity. Consequently you have deliberately continued to present circular arguementation for no positive purpose other then annoyance and disruption. Hence you are in violation of the CoC. Trolling. Negative attitude. Tone of confrantation. Disruptive communications. Consequence? Consider it... as you sit on the ''bench of woes'' for the next 15 days. Your suspended. |
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
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Delenda est Roma
Colonel
Suspended Joined: 10-Jul-2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 541 |
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Posted: 30-Aug-2012 at 18:07 |
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Sorry for being hot and personal yet I only fling back what is thrown at me. Would you like to discuss the OP or? Here is my view, murder was a common way to gain a position in the age of Sucessor's and so Seleucus should be judged by that standard not ours. He also governed his people well enough with few revolts and not very much supression. As an administrator he was much much better than Alexander and very good at running the empire and keeping it stable. Under him the empire was prosperous and wealthy. He started out with 2,000 men and through a series of battles proceeded to conquer what has become known as the Seleucid empire. With victories all around he took huge swathes of territory and is known as one of the greatest sucessors. His dynasty was survived by only one sucessor state, Egypt.
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Delenda est Roma
Colonel
Suspended Joined: 10-Jul-2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 541 |
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Posted: 30-Aug-2012 at 18:00 |
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You have failed to contribute anything to the topic and have been way off base BESIDES the fact you're discriminating based on my age. You have accused me of trolling for having an argument. Accused my objectivity and such groundlessly and have generally been condescending. I have just as much right to state my opinion as any of you and I don't have to change MY views to fit yours.
So without the needless condescending, derogatory, and well ill be ironic and say trolling material would you please state your opinion instead of using a mass of text to hide behind? I'm not sure ehat brought this pointless and groundless rant and insulting posts on but you seem to have thin skin and a big ego. |
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Centrix Vigilis
Emperor
Joined: 18-Aug-2006 Location: The Llano Online Status: Offline Posts: 7392 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Aug-2012 at 17:47 |
1. reference my black bold your post: Certainly they can...depends on the qualification criterion....used in concert with an objective analysis using the method. 2. reference my blue highlight your post: Don't ever presume to give me guidance on how to study or present opinions and or comment reference historical on subject matter. Especially given your rigidity, near borderline unwillingness, in accepting counter opinions and commentary. You neither have the academic credentials, nor the teaching credentials, nor the life experience credentials at this point. Your level of maturity and experience is totally insufficient. And this rigidity demonstrates it aptly. And if you have been paying attention around here you would already have noted that I have never ascribed to that practice. But have constantly advised others to reject it and be ever wary of later non contextual era evaluations and moral prejudices when dealing with the subject. At the expense of consideration, first and foremost of the actual era's practices, philosophies and moral cultural development. Neither should you ever presume I have made a superfluous and premature judgement on the man's character reference his morals. I have not done any such thing...that's a premature, immature and non objective judgement your making of me with no supportable evidence. Iow. your passion for his defence is clouding your ability to render objectivity when it comes to counter commentary and opposing viewpoints...none of which I have presented. I pointed out that reference his moral examination: ''That's been done constantly and to include by historians throughout the eons.....hence it's a legitimate consideration.....trick is...whether it's an objective one.'' ''Has nothing to do with the point... so assuming your not dodging the issue she raises and I confirm...the point is.... that men are rated; have been examined and rated by historians and scholars; and that has included their morals. You don't have to like it but you had better get used to the fact that objective analysis of a historical military and or ruling figure is not simply based on military genius or tactical skill. Unless it is your intent to specifically examine that element of their life experience. And that alone. That's an entirely different rationale for the examination. Because if you don't.. your fast approaching a very narrow and single minded approach to possible glamorization of a specific element at the expense of others. And not the objectivity in toto, which one is hopefully trained and educated to do, in order to be objective in the examination of the individuals entire experience. It's referred to as 'the whole man concept'. Iow. You begin your examination with a well written general overview but then here, as elsewhere, you have a tendency to only highlight an emphasis on military prowess or lack thereof, in your defense, while still attempting to justify the generality without examining other factors. At worst that's lazy history...at best an incomplete version.'' So accept it as constructive criticism or not...disregard my point if you will. ntl you are not objective in your examination of your subject if your later declared focus is not in association with your initial general presentation and or then further defined in a more precise and specific manner...which you have a tendency to not do...but rather focus more on one and only one element of the defense...when met with opposition. And in conclusion what's not going to happen here is another example of your willingness to participate in circular augmentative communication for the purposes of satisfying your ego. Mine is already secure. Besides that constitutes trolling and you already know what happens to them. So move on from here without me. And if you feel your unjustifiably being singled out... then take it to another moderator for examination and resolution. Because my comments to you on this thread have not been as a moderator but as a member. |
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
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Delenda est Roma
Colonel
Suspended Joined: 10-Jul-2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 541 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Aug-2012 at 17:15 |
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His administrative skills were also superb and so his rule was just, what am I missing?
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Delenda est Roma
Colonel
Suspended Joined: 10-Jul-2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 541 |
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Posted: 30-Aug-2012 at 17:13 |
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Then objectively no great man can be great. Neither Hannibal, Ghengis Khan, Caesar, Scipio, Alexander, Pyrrhus, or almost all the Sucessor's, Sulla, and such. These men all murdered, some were mass murderers yet they were still either geniuses or great men and you can't deny that. Don't substitute modern morales for an accurate view of history thats the worst sort of history there is. Its best as one of my acquaintances and another admin has stated that morales shouldn't usually be discussed in history die to cultural and time difference. So judge his accomplishments not a single murder that I commend him for. He crushed Antigonus at Ipsus and established an enormous empire starting with 2,000 men, if you can't leave the murder of one rival out I don't see how you can study history,
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Centrix Vigilis
Emperor
Joined: 18-Aug-2006 Location: The Llano Online Status: Offline Posts: 7392 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Aug-2012 at 17:03 |
Has nothing to do with the point... so assuming your not dodging the issue she raises and I confirm...the point is.... that men are rated; have been examined and rated by historians and scholars; and that has included their morals. You don't have to like it but you had better get used to the fact that objective analysis of a historical military and or ruling figure is not simply based on military genius or tactical skill. Unless it is your intent to specifically examine that element of their life experience. And that alone. That's an entirely different rationale for the examination. Because if you don't.. your fast approaching a very narrow and single minded approach to possible glamorization of a specific element at the expense of others. And not the objectivity in toto, which one is hopefully trained and educated to do, in order to be objective in the examination of the individuals entire experience. It's referred to as 'the whole man concept'. Iow. You begin your examination with a well written general overview but then here, as elsewhere, you have a tendency to only highlight an emphasis on military prowess or lack thereof, in your defense, while still attempting to justify the generality without examining other factors. At worst that's lazy history...at best an incomplete version. |
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
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Centrix Vigilis
Emperor
Joined: 18-Aug-2006 Location: The Llano Online Status: Offline Posts: 7392 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Aug-2012 at 16:49 |
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At best he was an excellent opportunist who continued to build on the success and foundations of others prior. To include his former companions success and failures in the regional distribution of Al's empire. He does ntl reserve credit for the maintenance of his position until his murder.
As an assassin, struck down by another, the irony then turned full circle and was complete.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
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Delenda est Roma
Colonel
Suspended Joined: 10-Jul-2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 541 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Aug-2012 at 16:45 |
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It is, how is a man any less a genius if he kills someone? He eventually established a large stable and very economically viable state with his subjects treated well for the time. He crushed Antigonus at Ipsus and created an empire with 2,000 men, if thats not greatness...
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Centrix Vigilis
Emperor
Joined: 18-Aug-2006 Location: The Llano Online Status: Offline Posts: 7392 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Aug-2012 at 16:41 |
That's been done constantly and to include by historians throughout the eons.....hence it's a legitimate consideration.....trick is...whether it's an objective one.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
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Delenda est Roma
Colonel
Suspended Joined: 10-Jul-2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 541 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Aug-2012 at 16:19 |
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Pyrrhus killed his coworker, Alexander killed his subordinates, it was a cutthroat game the sucessor's killed or murdered each other regularly. Don't rate a man on his supposed morals but his deeds.
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Don Quixote
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 29-Dec-2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4734 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Aug-2012 at 13:52 |
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With Perdikkas was different - like killing a person you worked with, not just some nameless person or a relative one is stuck with and hates.
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