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Is Evolution The Best Answer?

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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Evolution The Best Answer?
    Posted: 25-Aug-2012 at 20:19
Wait...don't call the guys with the rubber tuxedos with the extra long sleeves quit yet.

Is "evolution" the best answer for any species, including ours?

The Darwinian Model holds that evolution is a mutational process that favors changes leading to enhanced survivability, but to what end?

Imagine, if you will, that a species, any species, becomes perfectly adapted to it's environment.  What happens then?  The usual answer is inevitable extinction, because becoming highly speacialized within an ecological niche eventually becomes couinter-productive.  There are a few exceptions, of course.  Cockroaches and sharks come immediatley to mind, but so do all those species listed as endangered, which is merely a PC way of saying that they cannot cope with environmental changes.

I used to live near Palmer Lake, just south of Castle Rock, CO.  Along the freeway, bounded on the north side by a quarry, the south side by a former landscaping business, now a ranch, on the west side by four lanes of constant, noisy traffic and on the east side by the tracks of the Union Pacific Railway (trains every 20 minutes 24/7), lies a small park. Not much of park, scrubby, full of things you don't want to hike through, and home to rattlesnakes, coyotes and the occasional bear...BUT...it is sacred ground - it is the home of the Preeble's Jumping Mouse, an endangered species.

I lived up there for about twenty years, hiked through there and geocached there a lot, and never once saw a Preeble.  Talked to the park rangers, and they never saw one either, but it's still sacred ground.  My suspicion is that the Preeble's primary function in life is to feed the rattlesnake population and the raptors that abound, hawks, owls, falcons, etc.  Maybe the coyotes, too.

Now, if I could tak to Darwin, I would ask him what gives with the Preeble?  It can't survive across the highway where there are hundreds of acres of lush grassland and forest, or anywhere else but that scrubby patch of land, maybe ten acres total.  It is that well adapted to that environment, and that cannot be a good thing.  If people were that adapted, we would all be dead the moment we left our immediate neighbrohood.  Same for the animals we depend upon to feed us.

So when does "evolution" stop serving a useful purpose and become instead detrimental to life?  We know that it happens a lot, because we can look up the list of "endangered species" and count them up., but Life doesn't seem to favor highly efficient adaptation. 

Instead, Life seems to favor non-specialization, such as humans and cockroaches.  Live anywhere, eat anything, and able to relocate on a minute's notice.  Is this a flaw in Darwin's Theory, or something else?  Is non-specialization a form of specialization after all?


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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2012 at 20:33
Well first Darwin didn't come up with it. Second I agree it doesn't explain alot. What are we left with? I conclude with a mix of evolution and creationism.
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2012 at 21:07
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Well first Darwin didn't come up with it. Second I agree it doesn't explain alot. What are we left with? I conclude with a mix of evolution and creationism.


Perhaps not, but his is the theory generally accepted at the moment. 

Assuming for a moment that creationism is an equally valid theory  - no offense and no intention to start a discussion about religion - doesn't that still beg the question?  Perhaps more so?  Why create a life form that cannot survive change?

It seems to me that Creationism would lead to a world full of living things that needed nothing further in order to live on no matter what happened...living things perfectly suited to their purpose, like the cockroach.
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2012 at 21:10
But why? Who is to say He can't control change? I cant say I knoe his designs . Yet I can't see any of this around me is without some creator.
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2012 at 16:03
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

But why? Who is to say He can't control change? I cant say I knoe his designs . Yet I can't see any of this around me is without some creator.


If a creator could control change, why allow extinction, which implies faulty design?
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2012 at 16:49
Who is to say he hadn't planned it? We have no clue we only assume.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2012 at 17:00
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Who is to say he hadn't planned it? We have no clue we only assume.
Who is this he you are talking about, Delenda est Roma?
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2012 at 17:02
Originally posted by Mountain Man

Imagine, if you will, that a species, any species, becomes perfectly adapted to it's environment.  What happens then?
Are you aware of an environment that never changes?
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2012 at 17:11
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Who is to say he hadn't planned it? We have no clue we only assume.
Who is this he you are talking about, Delenda est Roma?


Read the entire conversation?
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2012 at 17:21
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma



Read the entire conversation?
Done that, now can you explain?
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2012 at 17:42
God obviously.
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2012 at 18:10
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Originally posted by Mountain Man

Imagine, if you will, that a species, any species, becomes perfectly adapted to it's environment.  What happens then?
Are you aware of an environment that never changes?


No, but I am aware of species which can readily adapt and survive change, while many others cannot.

The dinosaurs were a prime example of overly adapted species.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2012 at 18:56
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

God obviously.
Is God obvious? If so, have you a proven way to show the existence of such an entity. Would such an entity be able to prove without a shadow of a doubt to itself that they were indeed omnipotent? Is it even possible to be omnipotent? 
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2012 at 18:58
Answer your own question which was never asked mentioned or anything. Smells like one of your frequent red herrings....
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2012 at 19:00
Originally posted by Mountain Man


The dinosaurs were a prime example of overly adapted species.
Were the dinosaurs really an overly adapted species? What does it take to qualify to be an overly adapted species?
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2012 at 14:05
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Originally posted by Mountain Man


The dinosaurs were a prime example of overly adapted species.
Were the dinosaurs really an overly adapted species? What does it take to qualify to be an overly adapted species?


Unable to survive in an altered environment would be my definition.  Humans, for example, can adapt to changes in temperatiure, raifall, food supply and a host of other factors.  Meanwhile, we have laws protecting endangered species because they cannot adapt to changing habitat; therefore "overly adapted".
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2012 at 14:50
Originally posted by Mountain Man

 

Unable to survive in an altered environment would be my definition.  Humans, for example, can adapt to changes in temperatiure, raifall, food supply and a host of other factors.  Meanwhile, we have laws protecting endangered species because they cannot adapt to changing habitat; therefore "overly adapted".
I think I once saw a programme on my Mummy's television box, which warned of the dangers of mega volcanoes. I think there was somat about 75% of humankind bring deaded from an eruption. Just you imagine the full extent of what the dinosaurs had to face, and then try to say people would have had a chance in hell at that time of adapting.
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2012 at 17:28
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Originally posted by Mountain Man

 

Unable to survive in an altered environment would be my definition.  Humans, for example, can adapt to changes in temperatiure, raifall, food supply and a host of other factors.  Meanwhile, we have laws protecting endangered species because they cannot adapt to changing habitat; therefore "overly adapted".
I think I once saw a programme on my Mummy's television box, which warned of the dangers of mega volcanoes. I think there was somat about 75% of humankind bring deaded from an eruption. Just you imagine the full extent of what the dinosaurs had to face, and then try to say people would have had a chance in hell at that time of adapting.


We're facing the same circumstances when, not if, the Yellowstone super-volcano erupts.  It's way overdue right now. I suppose my answer is that we had all better hope that we can adapt.  After all, we once thought that we could survive global nuclear war.

Personally, from everything I have seen and read, Yellowstone will be an ELE, the end of everything for every one of us within a mere few years from the eruption.  It will make nuclear winter look like a cloudy weekend by comparison, and will radically lower global temperatures, particularly in the major food producing nations.  The last people on Earth will indoubtedly starve to death after cannibalism fails to make up the loss of food..

As for the dinosaurs, they reached the end of their evolutionary road and became far too specialized to have survived even without the Chicxulub or the Declan Traps events.  They had evolved to great sizes in order to survive more efficiently, and had become dependent on very specific diets.  Climate change alone would have been enough to eradicate them eventually.

Just my thoughts...
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2012 at 17:45
Dinosaurs loved for MILLIONS of years. If thats not adapting what is?
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2012 at 18:37
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Dinosaurs loved for MILLIONS of years. If thats not adapting what is?


Not sure I understand what dinosaurs' love lives have to do with the thread? 
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