Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

The succession of Mahomet

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Alcebiades View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl

suspended

Joined: 20-Mar-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 38
  Quote Alcebiades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The succession of Mahomet
    Posted: 03-Jul-2012 at 09:30
Ok, so I´ve been reading on the history of early Islam(particularly Abulfeda) and I´m still confused as to why exactly Islam split into 2 different sects, Sunni and Shia.

1-) Didn´t Mahomet explicitly appoint Ali as his successor?I found some primary passages that seem to indicate that.
2-) Why was Ali passed over so many times, before becoming the 4th caliph?
3-) Was the initial split between Sunni and Shia political, theological or both?
4-) When exactly did Shia and Sunni become hostile to each other?

Hmmm, yea, I guess we can start from here...
Back to Top
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2012 at 19:13
Sounds like political divisions as Ali's rivals must have felt cheated of their inheritance
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
Back to Top
Ollios View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22-Feb-2011
Location: Diyar-ı Rum
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1130
  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2012 at 00:07
Originally posted by Alcebiades

Ok, so I´ve been reading on the history of early Islam(particularly Abulfeda) and I´m still confused as to why exactly Islam split into 2 different sects, Sunni and Shia.

1-) Didn´t Mahomet explicitly appoint Ali as his successor?I found some primary passages that seem to indicate that.
2-) Why was Ali passed over so many times, before becoming the 4th caliph?
3-) Was the initial split between Sunni and Shia political, theological or both?
4-) When exactly did Shia and Sunni become hostile to each other?

Hmmm, yea, I guess we can start from here...


1-Yes, it is true

2-Because of tribal politics. (My view)
Hz. Muhammed, Hz.Osman, Hz. Abu Bakr and Hz. Umar are from Quraysh tribe which is the most powerful tribe before Islam in Arabia. I don't think Hz. Ali is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quraysh_tribe

People could want to protect their power. I think because of that, they ignored other persons who are not in same tribe.

3-Political

4-Caliph election was a problem which was caused polarization but the first blood came in Karbala http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Karbala



Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır
Back to Top
Alcebiades View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl

suspended

Joined: 20-Mar-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 38
  Quote Alcebiades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2012 at 22:07
Thanks... what were the differences in character between Ali and the other first 3 caliphs?? Did they have different theological beliefs, or had different opinions on how the Caliphate should be ruled?? Was Ali more pious??
Back to Top
Baal Melqart View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 28-Mar-2011
Location: UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 869
  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2012 at 13:16
Originally posted by Alcebiades

Thanks... what were the differences in character between Ali and the other first 3 caliphs?? Did they have different theological beliefs, or had different opinions on how the Caliphate should be ruled?? Was Ali more pious??


It is very hard to get an accurate picture of who these people were since the sources are heavily biased and highly contradictory. Sunni sources portray Abu Bakr (the first caliph) as a pious and wise person who gained the sobriquet of 'Siddiq' meaning 'The righteous/truthful'. Shia sources protray all of the three as hypocrits who were betraying the prophet and who had deliberatly tried to single out his bloodline, especially Ali.

Omar ibn Al Khattab in both Sunni and Shia sources is seen as a very strict but just person. He sought to apply justice to everyone and was known to get a little bit physical from time to time.

Outhmane ibn Affan was a very rich trader for most of his life and spent a lot of his money to help the Muslims during their time of need. He was from the same tribe as Muawiyah and it seems that he was not able to remain objective when it came to appointing governors. Most of these positions were given to his tribe of Bani Umayah which was in contradiction with the will of the later caliph Omar who had stressed that Umayah should not be allowed to rule. He was known to be a very pious man and somewhat emotional as well. He died at the hands of the Kharijites whilst he was doing his evening prayer.


Ali was a very pious man yet I can't judge whether he was the most pious of them all. What I know is that Ali must have been more deserving of becoming caliph due to his relation to the prophet. Yet the caliph was determined by Shura, a sort of voting held between the major candidates to dertermine who should rule. I think that most sources say that Ali was not present in the first meeting that lead to Abu bakr being appointed caliph. As I said before, sources are very biased and it would be worth reading from both Sunni and Shia books to find a middle-ground.


As far as theological beliefs, there were no differences. Most differences were political, never religious.
Timidi mater non flet
Back to Top
Alcebiades View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl

suspended

Joined: 20-Mar-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 38
  Quote Alcebiades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2012 at 18:04
thanks dude... when and how did sunni and shia split into different theological beliefs??
Back to Top
Ollios View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22-Feb-2011
Location: Diyar-ı Rum
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1130
  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2012 at 23:29
Originally posted by Baal Melqart


As far as theological beliefs, there were no differences. Most differences were political, never religious.


I don't agree with you. Even some shia groups (for example Turkish Alevis) don't go mosques and ignore to pray arabic and also one of the other differences is flagellation. It is acceptable between Shia people



Originally posted by Alcebiades

thanks dude... when and how did sunni and shia split into different theological beliefs??


It is hard to explain. Because I don't know any council in Islam as in Christianity. That's why there is no certain things but I can say this

Shia Islam: Battle of Karbala (This war is part of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Fitna -
Second Islamic Civil War)

Kharijites:Battle of Siffin
(This war is part of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Fitna - First Islamic Civil War)

Main branches are these: Shia, Kharijites and Sunni


 
Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır
Back to Top
Baal Melqart View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 28-Mar-2011
Location: UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 869
  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2012 at 11:36
Originally posted by Ollios

Originally posted by Baal Melqart


As far as theological beliefs, there were no differences. Most differences were political, never religious.


I don't agree with you. Even some shia groups (for example Turkish Alevis) don't go mosques and ignore to pray arabic and also one of the other differences is flagellation. It is acceptable between Shia people



Originally posted by Alcebiades

thanks dude... when and how did sunni and shia split into different theological beliefs??


It is hard to explain. Because I don't know any council in Islam as in Christianity. That's why there is no certain things but I can say this

Shia Islam: Battle of Karbala (This war is part of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Fitna -
Second Islamic Civil War)

Kharijites:Battle of Siffin
(This war is part of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Fitna - First Islamic Civil War)

Main branches are these: Shia, Kharijites and Sunni


 



I was referring to theological beliefs between Omar, Abu Bakr, Othmane and Ali...

Nowadays it is obvious that theologically differences between Sunnis and Shia are so wide that each believes the other is a Kaffir (disbeliever who is hell-bound).


The main sects are actually 4 not 3: Sunni, Shia, Sufi and Ibadi (formerly known as Kharijites).

The sunni follow the prophet's Sunna which includes all of his recorded sayings and actions as per their sources. This will be important to explain to you as the sources for Sunna differ greatly between these different sects. Most Hadiths (recorded sayings) in Sunni sources come from the Sahaba (companions of the prophet) and strangely enough, the greatest sahabas such as the ones I mentioned before have narrated very few hadiths, barely 300 if put together. Most come from other companions who are counted as minor companions. Sunnis also don't accept hadiths from Ahlul-Bayt (prophet's family) and if they do, there are very few that they accept.

The hadiths include a total of around 27,500 sayings that were recorded in many books by different hadith collectors: Muslim, Bukhari, Malik, Abu Dawood, Ibn Majah, Al-Timidhi, Al-Darimi and Ahmad ibn Hanbal. These are the sources that are accepted by Sunnis.

As for Shia, they mostly accept hadiths from Ahlul-Bayt and ones that were recorded and preserved by their Imams. Their sources include: Kitab Al-Kafi by Muhammad ibn Ya'qub Al-Kulayni al-Razi (329 AH), Man La Yahduruhu Al-Fiqh by Muhammad ibn Babuya and Al-Tahdib and Al-Istibsar both by Shaykh Muhammad Al-Tusi. Shia hadith collection contains at least 20,000 hadiths and there are many differences in the content. It should be noted that Shia may take hadiths from Sunni sources but they are a lot more careful and reluctant in selection.


Ibadi only have one book of hadith collections as a source and this is Musnad al-Rabi' ibn Habib which contains only 800 sayings.

Differences in dogma and creed are actually very significant especially between Sunni, Shia and Sufi. Shia for example believe in 12 imams that have been alive since the day Adam was created and still are to this very day. It is allowable for them to pray and ask for intercession from them. This is also allowed for the Ahlul-Bayt. Shia only pray 3 times a day in contrast with the rest of sects who pray 5 imes a day.


Sufis are allowed to pray in tombs of sages and scholars. This of course is seen as Shirk (idolatry/paganism) by Sunnis. Sufis also have a very different way of praying than the rest, albeit differences between Shia and Sunni. They usually allow singing and dancing during the praying service and believe that this makes the worshipper become closer with God. They also congregate sometimes and perform a حضرة Hadra which literally means 'presence or to be present' in which they sit around in a circle and invoke God to either come down to their presence or that their souls unite with God's soul. Again, this is seen as an ultimate form of Shirk by most Muslim denominations.



Timidi mater non flet
Back to Top
Baal Melqart View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 28-Mar-2011
Location: UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 869
  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2012 at 11:49


Shia prayer



Sufi Hadra


Timidi mater non flet
Back to Top
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2012 at 19:04
Does the Koran provide evidence of any underlying tensions that may have caused the split?
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
Back to Top
Baal Melqart View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 28-Mar-2011
Location: UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 869
  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2012 at 08:58
Originally posted by Nick1986

Does the Koran provide evidence of any underlying tensions that may have caused the split?



The Quran does touch on quite a bit about a group referred to as 'the hypocrits' who are idolators acting as Muslims for various mundane or ideological reasons.


''And among those around you of the bedouins are hypocrites, and [also] from the people of Madinah. They have become accustomed to hypocrisy. You, [O Muhammad], do not know them, [but] We know them. We will punish them twice [in this world]; then they will be returned to a great punishment.''  9:101

''
When the hypocrites come to you, [O Muhammad], they say, "We testify that you are the Messenger of Allah ." And Allah knows that you are His Messenger, and Allah testifies that the hypocrites are liars - They have taken their oaths as a cover, so they averted [people] from the way of Allah . Indeed, it was evil that they were doing - That is because they believed, and then they disbelieved; so their hearts were sealed over, and they do not understand''   63:1-3



The Quran prohibits theological splits as this can be considered idolatry:



''Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only [left] to Allah ; then He will inform them about what they used to do.''  6:159

''[Adhere to it], turning in repentance to Him, and fear Him and establish prayer and do not be of those who associate others with Allah - of those who have divided their religion and become sects, every faction rejoicing in what it has'' 30:31-32

''
And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided''  3:103


Timidi mater non flet
Back to Top
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2012 at 19:24
Any idea who these "hypocrites" were?
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.066 seconds.