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Nick1986
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Topic: Elizabeth: not a virgin? Posted: 12-May-2012 at 20:28 |
Elizabeth depicted herself as the Virgin Queen, but her decision not to marry may have been the result of a traumatic experience she had as a young woman. After Henry's death Elizabeth became infatuated with Catherine Parr's husband Thomas Seymour and may have had an affair with him as he was regularly seen entering the 14 year old princess's chamber. Seymour's beheading in 1549 must have traumatised the young Elizabeth who remained a lifelong spinster despite having many suitors in the early years of her reign and several younger boyfriends later in life
Edited by Nick1986 - 12-May-2012 at 21:39
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 12-May-2012 at 21:39 |
And if it were consummated..... it may have resulted in loss of her child bearing ability for physical reasons. And or as much as the psychological reasons you note. Very young when they physically consummated yes tis a given in many if not most cases. But what often isn't known is the reaction to the consumation. Today he'd be in jail as a pedophile. John's wife Isabella d' Angouleme was 12 when she married him. And 19 when she gave him his heir Henry III. But the stories are he enjoyed her sexual company from day one of their marriage. Often arising late to perform his duties because he was in bed with her.
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Don Quixote
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Posted: 12-May-2012 at 22:45 |
I think she didn't marry not because of some psychological trauma, she was far too strong for that, but because of very real political reasons. All the marriage scenarios woudld have pose political problems: 1. if she had married a foreign monarch, she may had to choose between the interests of her people, and of people pf her husband 2. if she had married a British noble, this would bring internal political problems with other nobles 3. if she had married some insignificant princeling, this would bring any political advantages on the international scene, but he may have grown ambition and created problems. 4. in any of those cases she would been trapped in a role of married woman and a mother, and not a prince. Marriage doen't have advantages for a woman, it mostly creates problems.
Besides, with being a spinster she had a leverage over her nobles - she could always use her remaining alone, as she did, when needed, to push buttons and get what she wanted from them. Last but not least, she could dangle herself as a prize to extract diplomatic compliance, as she did for quite a long time.
So, choosing spinsterhood was a very good decision, I think, for the time and mores she lived in, and for her personal situation; and I believe it was a conscious decision, since she would only lose from marriage, and gained nothing.
As for being a virgin or not, this I think we cannot know for sure, we can only guess; I rather think she had a full-blown love story, one at least, than going on dreams all her life.
Edited by Don Quixote - 12-May-2012 at 22:46
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unclefred
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Posted: 12-May-2012 at 23:14 |
Perhaps she was a closeted lesbian?
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Don Quixote
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Posted: 12-May-2012 at 23:22 |
Nah, I don't get this feel while reading about her. She loved to flirt, /and lead men by the nose/, enjoyed dancing with men for hours, and had at least one love story - with Robert Dudley, and kept his letters in a box...this is a red-blooded man's woman, if I ever saw one.
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Nick1986
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Posted: 13-May-2012 at 19:12 |
Early in her reign there were rumors she had an affair with Lord Dudley. Some even claimed she gave birth to his child, but the government quickly put a stop to this by slicing off the ears of those who spread the rumors
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Don Quixote
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Posted: 13-May-2012 at 19:45 |
She had the affair, what is not clear is was it consummated or not. As for a child, I doubt that, if it was true it would appear at some point, and she wouldn't have to leave the crown to James I of Scotland /which actually worked better from political POV, because it forever joined Scotland to England, in a peaceful way that no war would assure so well/.
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 13-May-2012 at 21:17 |
A lesbian? Nope.... tough ole bitch to the end and fairly attractive....but she was about as much a lesbian as I am gay. And that dog don't hunt. She was among many things a brilliant ruler and diplomatic strategist. And it's true ya can be homosexual and arrive at that as much as any straight....but not her.
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Nick1986
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Posted: 14-May-2012 at 19:18 |
There actually was a madman from Norwich (i think) who claimed to be Elizabeth's son in the 1590s and demanded his birthright. He was whipped and expelled from the town: a lucky escape when compared to the equally insane William Hacket who was hung for treason
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Sidney
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Posted: 14-May-2012 at 20:44 |
Arthur Dudley appeared in Spain in 1588 claiming to be Elizabeth's son.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-390593/Did-Virgin-Queen-secret-love-child.html
Not sure what happened to him.
There was even a 19th century story that Queen Elizabeth was really a man (the princess died aged 10 and the courtiers feared to tell Henry VIII, so they substituted a boy in drag). It turns out this story was a hoax, but it was believed by the actor Henry Irving, and the author Bram Stoker.
Edited by Sidney - 14-May-2012 at 20:53
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Nick1986
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Posted: 15-May-2012 at 19:49 |
Robert Devereux, Earl of Essex is Elizabeth's best-known alleged lover. He gave her what some believe to be an engagement ring that she wore until her death. She deeply regretted beheading him for treason in 1601
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 16-May-2012 at 01:27 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s__rX_WL100
Liz... Tom.... and the British lions.....reference Bob? Told ya she was a tough old bitch.
Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 16-May-2012 at 02:20
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
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Nick1986
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Posted: 23-May-2012 at 19:26 |
Originally posted by unclefred
Perhaps she was a closeted lesbian?
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Highly unlikely, although many believe she couldn't have children
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Nick1986
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Posted: 03-Sep-2012 at 21:01 |
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Mountain Man
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Posted: 04-Sep-2012 at 21:31 |
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis
A lesbian? Nope.... tough ole bitch to the end and fairly attractive....but she was about as much a lesbian as I am gay. And that dog don't hunt. |
Thank you for clearing that up for us! I'll sleep a lot better tonight. I support the theory that she was a spinster - not a virgin - for political reasons, and because she was strong willed and did not want to share the throne or the decisions that rule entailed. I'm a little hazy on the whole Queen-King thing, though. If someone marries a Queen, does he automatically become a King, or does he become the Prince Consort, as Phillip is now? Does a princess who marries a King automatically become a queen, or is that a case-by-case decision made by the King she married?
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Early Cuyler
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Posted: 04-Sep-2012 at 21:44 |
Oh yeah. She loved Dudley.
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Toltec
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Posted: 04-Sep-2012 at 21:49 |
Back in those days someone who married a queen did become a king and ruler. No-one in England fancied Dudley as a king, so her council did their best to stop it.
Edited by Toltec - 04-Sep-2012 at 21:50
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Mountain Man
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Posted: 04-Sep-2012 at 21:51 |
Originally posted by Early Cuyler
Oh yeah. She loved Dudley.
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There you are! Yeah, she supposedly really loved Dudley, which was kind of hard on Mrs. Dudley.
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Mountain Man
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Posted: 04-Sep-2012 at 21:53 |
Originally posted by Toltec
Back in those days someone who married a queen did become a king and ruler. No-one in England fancied Dudley as a king, so her council did their best to stop it. |
Thanks for that info. I suspected as much, and it does much to explain the reluctance of rulers to share. Kings, of course, needed some young queen to produce a royal male heir, but no such advantage came to a Queen because the royal lineage would pass to the King's male heir rather to her side of the family.
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Don Quixote
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Posted: 05-Sep-2012 at 07:06 |
Katherine the Great picked up the best option - never married again, and had a row of attractive lovers; so he got the power, and psychological support, and a bit of fun.
Edited by Don Quixote - 05-Sep-2012 at 08:19
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