Western Iranians vs. Eastern Iranians

Turkmenistan, Karakum dessert

Kara Kum desert of Turkmenistan that set the cat once more among the pigeons. In this area, known to the ancients as Margiana, the Russians uncovered a number of sites of monumental architecture dating from the second millennium BC. One of these sites, Gonur South, consists of a fortified complex of buildings, a number of private dwellings and a fort. Within this complex there is also a large shrine (known to have been used as a sacred fire temple) consisting of two parts: one clearly used for public worship and the other, hidden from the gaze of the multitude, an inner sanctum of the priesthood. In one of these private rooms were found three ceramic bowls. Analysis of samples found in these vessels by Professor Mayer-Melikyan revealed the traces of both cannabis and Ephedra. Clearly both these psychoactive substances had been used in conjunction in the making of hallucinogenic drinks. In the adjoining room of the same inner sanctum were found ten ceramic pot-stands which appear to have been used in conjunction with strainers designed to separate the juices from the twigs, stems and leaves of the plants. In another room at the other end of the shrine a basin containing remains of a considerable quantity of cannabis was discovered, as well as a number of pottery stands and strainers that have also been associated with making psychoactive beverages.

http://huxley.net/soma/


Here is a video on the discovery, it looks like it was the home Iranians before Iran.  Interesting video, it goes with what Genetics says.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hugCJ9tuq-g

But the thing is people who inhabit Eastern Europe are Slavs, and Iranians do not show any genetic ties to them but Slavs are not descendants of the Scythians.  

So far every ever Kurd and Iranian have had a cline towards Central Asia.  You might think it is because of the Turks but Turkish people themselves do not have the same cline, they cline more towards Siberia then Central Asia.   Their is no doubt that the Iranians who entered Iran came from Central Asia, this is what Automosal DNA says.  

Iranains do not show any tie to Eastern Europe, I do not know why this is but western europeans such as Germans and Irish seem to have some  Gedrosia component among them that is low among eastern europeans here for example, heres the latest K12b results for the components.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEYlE#gid=0


Iranian_D
Gedrosia 28.8
Caucasus 40.3

Kurds_D
Gedrosia 28.7
Caucasus 40.4

North Ossatiens_Y
Gedrosia 16.5
Caucasus 56.7

British_D 
Gedrosia 11.3
Caucasus 1.3

Dutch_D
Gedrosia 9.9
Caucasus 4.8

German_D
Gedrosia 7.3
Caucasus 9.8

Russian_D
Gedrosia 1.8
Caucasus 11.7

Polish_D
Gedrosia 0.5
Caucasus 12.1

Ossetians have suffered what might  be called genetic mixing, they have heavely mixed with cauacaisns.  On Y-dna they have around 1-5% of R1a1a.  Some believe that the Alans males were all killed by the invading Turks and that the males among Ossetians are the caucasian mixture.

As you know Kurdistan was settled by Scythians, like I had mentioned Kurds also have the same genetic pull towards Central Asia and do not differ much from Iranians, only a few Kurds show a genetic pull towards North Caucasians.

It could be that The Iranain speakings people moved towards the west and mixed with the germans and that the Slavs invasion drove many of them away or they were killed. 








Edited by Ince - 31-Jan-2012 at 20:08

But the thing is people who inhabit Eastern Europe are Slavs, and Iranians do not show any genetic ties to them but Slavs are not descendants of the Scythians.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri But the thing is people who inhabit Eastern Europe are Slavs, and Iranians do not show any genetic ties to them but Slavs are not descendants of the Scythians.   People who inhabit Turkey are Turks, do you think they are the same as original Turks? Most of those Slavs are in fact Slavized Iranians.   So far every ever Kurd and Iranian have had a cline towards Central Asia.  You might think it is because of the Turks but Turkish people themselves do not have the same cline, they cline more towards Siberia then Central Asia.   Their is no doubt that the Iranians who entered Iran came from Central Asia, this is what Automosal DNA says.    Who is an Iranian? For a long time, a large number of non-Iranian people, such as Elamites, Mannaeans, Urartians, Lullubis, ... lived in the Iranian plateau then there could be a migration of Iranian-speaking people from Eastern Europe and Central Asia, but then Greeks occupied Iran, and then Arabs, Turks, Monglos and etc. There were several other migrations from other regions, for example some hundred thousands Georgians from Georgia migrated to the north and central Iran, most of them mixed with other people and already consider themselves Persian or Mazandarani, but there is still a large Georgian city in the Isfahan province and people of this city and several villages around this city speak Georgian.   Iranains do not show any tie to Eastern Europe, I do not know why this is but western europeans such as Germans and Irish seem to have some  Gedrosia component among them that is low among eastern europeans here for example, heres the latest K12b results for the components.   You yourself show that Iranians are more related to the people of Caucasus but then you say they are related to Central Asians, Gedrosia was in the southeast of Iran, not the Central Asia.

You can believe in what  you want it is now a proven that Iranian have a genetic tie to Central Asia.  Gedrosia is called Gedrosia because it peaks in that region, but does not mean it originated there.   I do not believe Slavs Slaviced Scythians, they do not even carry the same linage as the Ossetians who actually speak a offshoot of Scythian. 

Turks of Anatolia have 3-8% East Asian and do not show a genetic tie to Central Asia but to Siberia.

Out of all the west asian people, Kurds and Iranians are the only ones who have  genetic pull towards Central Asia, why don't Armenians,Assyrians,Georgians all show this pull?   You just cannot explian this by saying that Iranians today are just all natives and not Iranic.   Dodecad and even a major company like 23andme all show this.

Maybe you do not want accept that the Indo-Iranain origins was Central Asia around BMAC.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri As I said in my first post, the origin of Indo-Iranians was probably from the east of the Caspian sea, namely Central Asia, but western Iranians, like Persians and Medes, came through the Caucasus.   It is really possible that moden Iranians have genetic pull towards Central Asia because:   1. The majority of the people of Central Asia are Turkic people 3. There were several migrations of Turkic people from Central Asia to Iran 2. About one third of Iranians are already Turkic-speaking people   As I said Iranian speaking people have a longer continuous history in the Eastern Europe than Iran and Central Asia, so it is not possible to talk about Iranians and ignore them, some Eastern European peoples, such Serbs, Croats, Bulgars and etc still consider themselves Iranian.

I do not believe the Turkic impact can explain why Kurds have nearly the same genetic makeup as Iranians because it does not explain why Kurds have the same pull and there has not been much brothely love between Kurds and Persians for a long time to explain the similarities.   

I too believe that the eastern part of the caspien sea(Turkmenistan) was the homeland of Iranains before Iran, even the Parthian homeland was near that region.   Automosal DNA of Turkmenistan is very similar to Iran, only difference been is Turkmenistan has higher levels of East asian around 15% where as it's 1-3% among Iranians and Kurds.  Turkmenistan was a Iranian dominated region before the Turkic arrival from Siberia.  Even Tajikistan is similar to Iran, but Tajiks have higher East Asian, due to Turkic and Mongol invasion.

It could be that Medes and Persians took the Northern root from Central Asia and came to Iran, but like I mentioned there does not seem to be a genetic link between Eastern Europeans and Iranians.  It could be that in the ancient times, the region of Siberia and some parts of Eastern Europe were Iranian dominated, but maybe only by elites, many people were reffered to as Scythians and likely were not Iranian speaking.   Because Scythians were also present in west asia and were close to the Medes and yet no genetic link to Slavs at all can be found in North Iran or among Kurds.

Proto-Indo Iranians are rather a different story, was there a language replacement in Central Asia by the Proto Indo-Iranians or were they already a caucasian like people?  

I also recommend you follow the Dodecad project as it gets updated time to time when they get new samples from studies that improve the results more as each new update it is more accurate then the other but they always follow the same trend and minor changes most of the time.



 


Edited by Ince - 03-Feb-2012 at 06:36

Originally posted by Nick1986 Could the fair haired and light-skinned Iranians have been descendents of Alexander's Greek soldiers?

No I doubt that.  Because many claimed the same thing about the Kalash where some of them have lite eyes and hair, but on genetics they show no ties to Greeks or Eastern Europeans.  

If you use black&white TV picture looks black&white Cyrus!

It's more complicated Ince as it looks!Why did Kalashes stay in India then?(Pakistan now!)Why did the not come back with Alexander?Why did Hunza people also?I believe Alexander had helped them they turned back home!Now if I am right who had pushed this Big migration of people out of Hindu valley&Eastern Iran?
Let You help me about this cause you are living there.

That's the point!How did they finish inside Alexander's army of mercenaries?As it looks now they did it cause they need return ticket for home!Who did push them in Euro-African areas?Ince i believe,here had started migration that was not written in history books.Cause those that did it had changed history as it is
today.Of course it is my hypothesis here. 

Originally posted by Ince Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Originally posted by Nick1986 Could the fair haired and light-skinned Iranians have been descendents of Alexander's Greek soldiers?    It seems it was the vice versa, the majority of Persians were fair haired and Greeks were among the first people who changed it.   As Kanas_Krumesis posted some pics titled "Persian soldiers from Achaemenid times through the eyes of the ancient Greeks", we usually see Persians were fair haired but Greek themselves had black hair.   Greek hero Achilles, Priam and Hector (bottom left):     Persian king Darius (seated on throne) and Xerxes:   The Kalash are the closest people to what the Ancient Indo-Iranians were, this is because they have been more isolated then any other group and do not seem to have had any influence from Mongols or Turks and they have lower South Asian compared to the Pathan and other Afghans and Pakistanis.    The Kalash are dominantly Euroasian in genetic makeup with some South Asian probably they got when they moved south where as the Ancient Iranians likely had no south asian, as it is low among Kurds and iranians(some have high, probably influence from the south)

kalash yes, but I think isolated Tajik (pamiri) are even closer then Kalash to original indo iranians, some of them have totally european features, they can easily fit in places like Germany. Kalash I believe have roughly 22-25% north east European genetic component in them, while some tajik pamiri groups have 27-30% north east euro component, all these people in south central asia are clear descendants of indo Iranians, who were heavy mix of european and west asian