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Freedom for Palestine

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Freedom for Palestine
    Posted: 26-Sep-2011 at 19:20
Antisemitism is a very problematic word to use here as most Jews are descended from European converts while Palestinians have married other Semites for generations. In a way, Israel could be described as antisemitic for persecuting the descendents of the Biblical Jews. Zionism itself was (quite rightly) defined as a form of racism until Bush Sr. bullied the UN into repealing it
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2011 at 06:56


Wake up WEST!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine

*About term of anti-semitism. Sorry but for me, Israel is in same positon with lier shepherd (wolves and shepherd story). Jews are using this term as a sheld now and they used it in past too, so this term lost its meaning. Looking in anti-semitistic perspective for every negative criticism agaist Israel is an illness.

*Also Hamas is elected authority by Palestinians and I don't see ant difference between Hamas policy and Israel policy. Both of them are unacceptable. In both of them, there are many sinless victims.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2011 at 07:29

The problem is that after the creation of a Palestinian state, Islamic countries will certainly want the destruction of Israel's state, so the westerners are wise enough to not recognise the first one because of the second one.

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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2011 at 09:09
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The problem is that after the creation of a Palestinian state, Islamic countries will certainly want the destruction of Israel's state, so the westerners are wise enough to not recognise the first one because of the second one.



Again, that is just far-fetched. As far as I can remember the biggest donations that are given from the US government to any foreign country are always donations to Israel. Couple that with the fact that military service is a must in israel and the fact that they are superbly armed and quite technologically advanced (especially when it comes to weapons and defenses) I wouldn't worry about Israel's safety in a million years! The threat has never and will never be as big as the zionist regime tries to show on TV. A few deaths in Beer Sheva and Hevron is all that it is limited to.
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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2011 at 09:20
Originally posted by Nick1986

Antisemitism is a very problematic word to use here as most Jews are descended from European converts while Palestinians have married other Semites for generations. In a way, Israel could be described as antisemitic for persecuting the descendents of the Biblical Jews. Zionism itself was (quite rightly) defined as a form of racism until Bush Sr. bullied the UN into repealing it


Nick, I used to agree with your theory that Palestinians are descendants from the remaining Philistines who mixed and were absorbed by the local Israelite population, who then later on adopted Arabic culture and inter-married with Arabs so that we arrive at the modern day palestinian. I'm starting to have doubts as to the validity of this claim, because I was reading Arrians's Anabasis Alexandrei (The Campaigns of Alexander) and I stumbled upon the siege of Gaza. The year was around 332 BBC and Arrians used the word 'Arabs' to describe the populations dwelling inside the fortress. I think this might show us that we must at least accept that there was a quite noticeable migration of bedouin tribes from the Negev and the South-east, especially after the Babylonian captivity.

I also don't think that all the Philistines were extinct by the time of the captivity because that theory would rely solely on the OT account and no other historical source can be found speaking of this massive fight between Israelites and Philistines. It might be worth reviewing all these points because one can't say that Israelites and modern day Palestinians necessarily share the exact same ancestry.
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2011 at 10:04
I am concerned about those wars on middle east cause behind all wars stands ethnic cleanse.Why?!?Balkan
wars were the same.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2011 at 10:40
Originally posted by Baal Melqart

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The problem is that after the creation of a Palestinian state, Islamic countries will certainly want the destruction of Israel's state, so the westerners are wise enough to not recognise the first one because of the second one.



Again, that is just far-fetched. As far as I can remember the biggest donations that are given from the US government to any foreign country are always donations to Israel. Couple that with the fact that military service is a must in israel and the fact that they are superbly armed and quite technologically advanced (especially when it comes to weapons and defenses) I wouldn't worry about Israel's safety in a million years! The threat has never and will never be as big as the zionist regime tries to show on TV. A few deaths in Beer Sheva and Chevron is all that it is limited to.
 
LOLLOLLOL
 
Yes yes ask the Syrians and the Mullahs of Iran and their proxies throughout the region how far fetched...
 
Naive again....review the record Baal. Even you... since the state's creation in 1947... can not be mislead by the factual record of the numerous attempts by varying and all Arab states since then to gain their goal. And continue to pursue it. Then again perhaps ya can.
 
Or do you think all those wars and and terrorist actions were just a myth... or perhaps....I know...merely a delusion. Provided for and by the Euro socialist type, utopian meta-physicalists, who now quiver in their sleep over the failed assimilation policies of Arabs in their countries..and the threats that represents individually and collectively. Who now find it fashionable to support the Palestinians merely as a guise to cover their anti-semitism....and those same self-created and induced fears.
 
Yep that must be it.
 
LOL
 
No.
 
The rhetoric and agendas remain real. And the creation of a Palestinian state...under the control of rabid Jew haters and advocates of genocide.. is merely another brick in the road to the destruction of the nation state of Israel.
 
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2011 at 13:28
As you read here, Ayatollah Khomeini (previous leader of Iran) said "if Muslims are united and if each Muslim poured only a glass of water, then there would happen a flood and Israel would vanish." It can be true, there are more than 1.5 billion Muslims and just a few million Jews, less than one hundred years ago, these Muslims vanished Assyiran population from the Middle East and the westerners did nothing for their fellow Christian brothers and sisters, what about Jews? It can't be worse than the Holocaust!
 
It is good to read the history:
 
The Urmia Conference was held on December 19, 1917. In attendance were: The Assyrian Patriarch and Assyrian General Agha Petros, Capt. George Gracey of Britain, Lieut. McDowell of the United States, Dr. Paul Caujole representing France, Mr. Basile Nikitine the Russian Consul in Urmia. The Conference was presided over by Dr. Shedd, The American Vice-Consul in the city of Urmia. Several questions were asked by the Assyrian leadership concerning their demands and military help. Captain Gracey spoke in behalf of the Allies in this manner:
"Dear Friends: This is the first opportunity I have had to have the honour of being present with you. I wish now to speak to you with reference to the purpose and the plan of the Allied Powers concerning the small and oppressed nations such as yours. This great war that has now raged for so long, and is still raging at tremendous cost in blood and material to the Allies, has but one main object, and that is, the emancipation of small and oppressed nations such as yours. For centuries you have been crushed under the millstone of your enemies. You have been oppressed beyond measure. You have now come to the verge of extinction as a people and as a language, thanks to the misdeeds of the Turks, assisted by their allies the Germans. I have come to tell you that, inasmuch as the great Allied Powers are making tremendous sacrifices, and are shedding streams of blood for the sake of saving you, and making you free, it is your duty also as a small Christian nation to continue in the war, and fight as you have so splendidly fought in the past. Remember what you were in bygone centuries. The mighty deeds and achievements of your empire are today the richest treasures which adorn the museums of Europe and which still inspire the people of the western world. Let the memories of your own past inspire you to the performance of greater deeds. Let the hopes of a glorious future make you patient and persevering to the end. Remember, you are fighting for your freedom; and you must also continue to contribute toward that final goal. You should all think very deeply upon this matter, and prize your unique opportunity. It is the duty of you all to unite under the leadership of your great leader, the Patriarch. You have been known among the great powers, and recognized by them through the great name of Mar Shimun. There are no Persian Assyrians or Mountain Assyrians. You are all people, constituting the Assyrian Nation. Such is the good will and wish of the Allied Powers concerning you. I have been sent by my government to declare to you, as well as to other small nations, that you are all fighting for your own freedom. I have just come from Van. They are continuing in their struggle for their freedom. You must also unite under one head, and do the same. And so far as the feelings of the Persian Government are concerned, you leave that matter to our legation, and to the legations of the Allied Powers in Tehran. Furthermore, all the expense of your army will be paid by the Allies. It has already been arranged with the new government of Caucasia that you shall receive all guns and ammunitions you need, and even military assistance, if you require any. FREEDOM IS A VERY PRECIOUS AND COSTLY POSSESSION. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN BOUGHT BY SACRIFICES. YOU MUST ALSO BE WILLING TO DO THE SAME, IF YOU WISH TO POSSESS YOUR FATHERLAND WHERE MONEY AND MILK FLOW."
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2011 at 15:46
Is obvious that is not only an ethnic problem there, but one mostly religious. The Muslim world support 'Palestine' because, like other cultists too, they believe only Muslims are fully human and the rest of the world doesn't matter.

This religious-psychopathic view of the world as two entities, "them" and "us" will not allow Muslims to live in peace with Israel or inside the Western society. They are sick people (the devouted ones), uncontrollable, brainwashed by Mohammed's commands of genocide and conquer.

Almost in every Muslim country the religious minorities are persecuted and killed. When Muslims are a minority, they behave peacefully but when they are in power, they show their true face. They are also manipulative, what they say to a non-Muslim is not what they say to a Muslim. One should never trust them.

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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2011 at 16:12
This topic is getting to be islamophobic.Confused Accutualy now, I can easily understand how did the anti-semitism rise in Central Europe. It should be similar with islamphobia in here.

But of course your are right about everything because

"until lions write their own history the tale of the hunt will always glorify the hunter"

there is nothing to say in this atmospher.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2011 at 17:24
I will not go so far as to concur in your opinion. For one man's version and definition of an Islamophobe is another's version of an Islamophile.
 
As a poster-member I will speak freely and given the requirements of the Coc as I wish. I expect nothing less from any other here.
 
But as a Mod and member of staff; I also will ensure that before the potential for disruptive conflict actually occurs.... and or is not being used merely as a sop to the opposition viewpoint...that another Mod will ensure behavior within the CoC is being maintained..and recuse myself accordingly.
 
In the end.... the oppurtunity for disagreement and and contrary viewpoints being expressed freely and without fear of censure is more important to me, in both my roles, then one subjective analysis that the thread has become a haven for Islamophobes.
 
So as a member to members.... if that's how you feel; either participate as you desire or dont. And if you have a problem with the course, as you might identify the thread is developeing into, then feel free to PM the Administrator or a non contributing Mod with your concerns.
 
Assuming you feel that a mod participating is incapable of objectivity and the unbiased exercisement of his official role and duties as such. 
 
That not only is everyones perogative but is exactly what is mandated by the aforementioned CoC.
 
And this Menumorut is an over generalization and stands without merit...
 
''They are also manipulative, what they say to a non-Muslim is not what they say to a Muslim. One should never trust them.''
 
 
For I know... have seen and lived..... the opposite and the same of just as many non Muslims.... in the 26 countries I have visited..... in my lifetime.
 
 
 


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 27-Sep-2011 at 17:35
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2011 at 17:38
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The problem is that after the creation of a Palestinian state, Islamic countries will certainly want the destruction of Israel's state, so the westerners are wise enough to not recognise the first one because of the second one.



I agree and groups like Hamas will not be happy till the Jews are all pushed out to the sea-
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2011 at 19:45
Another Arab-Israeli war is highly unlikely, not least due to Israel's powerful military and apparent possession of nuclear weapons. The Arabs don't want to exterminate the Jews, they just want to stop israel mistreating fellow-Muslims

Edited by Nick1986 - 27-Sep-2011 at 19:46
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2011 at 20:05
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

For one man's version and definition of an Islamophobe is another's version of an Islamophile.


Definately, I agree these words and I hope you have got same ideas about semitism and anti-semitism. However if this post isn't islamophobic, there isn't any islamophobic things on earth.

"Is obvious that is not only an ethnic problem there, but one mostly religious. The Muslim world support 'Palestine' because, like other cultists too, they believe only Muslims are fully human and the rest of the world doesn't matter.

This religious-psychopathic view of the world as two entities, "them" and "us" will not allow Muslims to live in peace with Israel or inside the Western society. They are sick people (the devouted ones), uncontrollable, brainwashed by Mohammed's commands of genocide and conquer.

Almost in every Muslim country the religious minorities are persecuted and killed. When Muslims are a minority, they behave peacefully but when they are in power, they show their true face. They are also manipulative, what they say to a non-Muslim is not what they say to a Muslim. One should never trust them.
"

It is also funny. Like a dog chasing own tail. He found something in vikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_the_world_in_Islam (in same sources also says "neither mentioned in the Qur'an nor in the sayings of the Prophet") and he is making humiliating generalizations about all muslims.
 
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

So as a member to members.... if that's how you feel; either participate as you desire or dont. And if you have a problem with the course, as you might identify the thread is developeing into, then feel free to PM the Administrator or a non contributing Mod with your concerns.


Sorry, but I don't think that I can reach a solution and also this is just a forum in all web. It isn't enough to fight. Best idea is being irresponsive. Like jesus and turning other cheek. I hope all other members can find the solution with talking but i think this is a bit difficult with similar minds, similar perspectives. Oh sorry, you have already solve the problems. Of course the killer is just muslim sides as every time (they have secret faces). they want to kill all jews and pushed out them to the sea. Because they believe only Muslims are fully human and the rest of the world doesn't matter.

but if you understand solution isn't simple as that. I will be waiting you in other topics, not this one anymore.



Edited by Ollios - 28-Sep-2011 at 11:25
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2011 at 04:49

The fact is that Islamism is much worse than racism, I really felt ashamed to be an Iranian when I read about the trial of the murderer of Miro Begijanian, a 15 year-old Armenian boy who was killed in Tehran some years ago, both of them were Iranian, but the killer was a Muslim and the killed one was a Christian, the judge said three years punishment for the killer is just because "disturbing public order", not for killing this non-Muslim!!

Giving freedom to Muslims in the regions where non-Muslims live is very dangerous, for this reason it is really better that there isn't an independent country named "Palestine", especially with the capital city of Jerusalem, this country will change the balance of the power in the region and will make problems for other countries.

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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2011 at 06:56
Originally posted by Ollios

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

For one man's version and definition of an Islamophobe is another's version of an Islamophobe.


Definitely, I agree this words and I hope you have got same ideas about semitism and anti-semitism. However if this post isn't islamophobic, there isn't any islamophobic things on earth.

"Is obvious that is not only an ethnic problem there, but one mostly religious. The Muslim world support 'Palestine' because, like other cultists too, they believe only Muslims are fully human and the rest of the world doesn't matter.

This religious-psychopathic view of the world as two entities, "them" and "us" will not allow Muslims to live in peace with Israel or inside the Western society. They are sick people (the devoted ones), uncontrollable, brainwashed by Mohammed's commands of genocide and conquer.

Almost in every Muslim country the religious minorities are persecuted and killed. When Muslims are a minority, they behave peacefully but when they are in power, they show their true face. They are also manipulative, what they say to a non-Muslim is not what they say to a Muslim. One should never trust them.
"

It is also funny. Like a dog chasing own tail. He found something in wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_the_world_in_Islam (in same sources also says "neither mentioned in the Qur'an nor in the sayings of the Prophet") and he is making humiliating generalizations about all muslims.
 
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

So as a member to members.... if that's how you feel; either participate as you desire or don't. And if you have a problem with the course, as you might identify the thread is developing into, then feel free to PM the Administrator or a non contributing Mod with your concerns.


Sorry, but I don't think that I can reach a solution and also this is just a forum in all web. It isn't enough to fight. Best idea is being unresponsive. Like jesus and turning other cheek. I hope all other members can find the solution with talking but i think this is a bit difficult with similar minds, similar perspectives. Oh sorry, you have already solve the problems. Of course the killer is just muslim sides as every time (they have secret faces). they want to kill all jews and pushed out them to the sea. Because they believe only Muslims are fully human and the rest of the world doesn't matter.

but if you understand solution isn't simple as that. I will be waiting you in other topics, not this one anymore.

 
 
 
 
As I noted above play or don't play... your choice. His attention has been called to the overgeneralization. I already did that. The rest is his subjective analysis.. much as you have been posting. Your problem is you don't like it or the language. And along those lines should he have used a more subtle or PC style to assuage his potential opponent? Perhaps.
 
Probably not.
 
Because if he had, he then would not have been expressing his view within the context he intended. And I as a member (and Mod) would rather have an honest man (even an incorrect one) then a facade for the sake of pcness.
 
If you disagree  and wish to dispute the points.... then do so. Don't merely complain about what only you, have at this point id, as an example of Islamophobia....and go away. Because at that point, imo, that's merely reflective of intellectual cowardice.
 
He is at this point expressing his viewpoint still within the Coc and or my definition of it as both member and Mod. The language may be harsh as viewed by many but that's a fact of daily life.
 
If and when he or any one else steps beyond the guidance within the CoC... I or someone else will be there.
 
If you don't believe that.... then you don't believe in the objectivity of the staff as an entity in being able to control, as necessary, discourse to avoid conflict....
 
and you would be incorrect.
 
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2011 at 15:25
Originally posted by Ollios


This topic is getting to be islamophobic.Confused Accutualy now, I can easily understand how did the anti-semitism rise in Central Europe. It should be similar with islamphobia in here.But of course your are right about everything because"until lions write their own history the tale of the hunt will always glorify the hunter"there is nothing to say in this atmospher.


It should or it it shouldn't. The antisemitism was partially a phobia, but that doesn't mean that any opposition to a doctrine or cult is also a phobia. To say it is, is another sample of simplist thinking, typical to people who deny the reality to protect their delusion. Look around, other cults too believed the same things about the "divinity" of their leaders and were ready to die or do anything to show their devotion. Is embarassing how those people were fooled to that degree, because they were really sincere. But the leaders were not, there is clear evidence that Muhammad, Hitler, Jim Jones etc were intentionally misleading their followers.


Opposition to doctrines based on violence and opression is not irrational, is not a phobia. When daily are killed people in the name of a belief, people have reason to fear.

And returning to 'Palestine', I want to say that I don't like the Jews because most of them are too cultists, with their belief in their so-called chosenness. But is their right to live in Judea together with the Arabs native there who are the same people (arabized and islamized Jews).

And the name 'Palestine' is an insult to the Jewish people. It was used by Romans after the Bar Kokhba Revolt to dissociate the name of the territory to the Jewish people. Today is it known that the Jews were the prehistoric inhabitants of the land of Canaan and that the Philistines from which the name Palestine originates, were some European (Proto-Greek or Illyrian) invaders who controlled a part of the Canaanite coast some centuries starting with 1175 BCE.

The biblical mythology about the migration of Jews during the Bronze Age has still an effect on the minds of many, as people don't understand that most of the Bible was invented ans has no connection with the historical events.

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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2011 at 17:07
*"Revisionist Zionism is a nationalist faction within the Zionist movement. It is the founding ideology of the non-religious right in Israel, and was the chief ideological competitor to the dominant socialist Labor Zionism. Revisionism is represented primarily by the Likud Party"

"While the initial core group of Likud leaders such as Israeli Prime Ministers Begin and Yitzhak Shamir came from Likud's Herut faction, later leaders, such as Benjamin Netanyahu, and Ariel Sharon have come from or moved to the "pragmatic" Revisionist wing."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revisionist_Zionism

last two prime ministers of Isreal just racist guys Angry

*I have posted map before. It is obvious which side is pushing out which side, but if you want to close your eyes.. Angry

*How many people from Isreal have to live another country now because of Hamas attacks and how many Palestines have to live as refugees? check it on net. Angry

*Embargo: do you think it is just about guns. People in Gazze can't export their products as flowers, just flowers. http://observers.france24.com/content/20100203-two-half-dark-years-gaza-flower-growers Angry

*Israel is keeping own expansion, west is just saying stop it, but they have never stopped before http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15085308 Angry

note:about your muslim majority&non-muslim minority theory, please look different sides and make research, I can give you many good examples about how it is shit living in non-muslim majority as a muslim and also just this summer we saw big christian teror attack in Norway. It is not about religion, it is about being fanatic

note2:about "typical to people who deny the reality to protect their delusion", I have given my best answer with using your reference. let me remind you  "neither mentioned in the Qur'an nor in the sayings of the Prophet"




Edited by Ollios - 28-Sep-2011 at 17:10
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2011 at 17:53
What about the Palestinian Christians who are being persecuted by the Muslim brethren in the Gaza Strip?

Also, what about the Palestinians in Bethlehem, now a minority, who were once the majority in that city?

How can the Muslim Palestinians demand a free state when they oppress their Christian brethren?
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2011 at 20:17
Originally posted by Menumorut

Is obvious that is not only an ethnic problem there, but one mostly religious. The Muslim world support 'Palestine' because, like other cultists too, they believe only Muslims are fully human and the rest of the world doesn't matter.

This religious-psychopathic view of the world as two entities, "them" and "us" will not allow Muslims to live in peace with Israel or inside the Western society. They are sick people (the devouted ones), uncontrollable, brainwashed by Mohammed's commands of genocide and conquer.

Almost in every Muslim country the religious minorities are persecuted and killed. When Muslims are a minority, they behave peacefully but when they are in power, they show their true face. They are also manipulative, what they say to a non-Muslim is not what they say to a Muslim. One should never trust them.

That's not true. The Muslim Turks and Mughals tolerated other religions while the Christians still burned people as witches or heretics. Modern Muslims may be prejudiced against outsiders, but this is largely a reaction to earlier oppression by European imperialists and America's support for dictators like Mubarak and Zionist colonialism
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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