The Red Jews

Medieval Europeans believed a race known as the "Red Jews" would come from the east and destroy Christendom. This group, believed to be the Khazars, were supposedly prevented from entering Europe by a great wall built at Gorgan, Iran, by Alexander the Great.
Why were these Jews "red" and what is the historical truth behind this myth?

Edited by Nick1986 - 17-Aug-2011 at 11:05

Perhaps Cyrus can tell us about this wall that supposedly existed in Iran. Did the ancient persians ever encounter such a race?

Noted and convincing to a degree Unkie...but the mythology, for that's what it remains for me at this point, would then require a  nexus of the 'lost tribes' turning into Khazars, among others, something I am not yet comfortable with. Not because of the possibility but because of empirical evidence.

Originally posted by Nick1986 Perhaps Cyrus can tell us about this wall that supposedly existed in Iran. Did the ancient persians ever encounter such a race?

 

The Great Wall of Gorgan was restored during the Sassanid Empire (224 - 651). Its construction is about three decades earlier than the GWC, and it is second only to that edifice as the largest defensive wall in existence.

The GWG is an ancient defensive bulwark located in the Plain of Gorgan (in Persian: Dasht-e-Gorgan) in Gollestaan Province, which is in the north-eastern of Iran, south of the Caspian Sea. The Wall, which is one of the most outstanding and gigantic architectural monuments in Dasht-e-Gorgan starts from the Caspian coast, circles north of Gonbad-e-Kaavous, continues towards northwest and vanishes behind Pishkamar Mountains (in Persian: Koohsaar-e-Pishkamar).  In total it is 195 kilometers long.

 

Source- Persian Mirror

 

Edited by red clay - 18-Aug-2011 at 10:22

If the Khazars defended Europe from the Turks why were they later demonised?

This is just speculation, but some of what I've read here reminded me of one or two things. As with the Mongol origin story, there is a possibility of the red being Alani in origin. It was know for them to have red headed people as well as blond, as well as either blue or green eyes. There is also supposed to be a connection between the Alani and this Magog thing too. As for mountains being blocked there is history there with the Gate of the Alans, known as the Darial gorge. Like I said just some speculation, though at one time there was a mass conversion to the Jewish faith too.

"   The Arab chronicler Ibn-Said al-Maghribi writes, "they are to the north of the inhabited earth towards the 7th clime, having over their heads the constellation of the Plough. Their land is cold and wet. Accordingly their complexions are white, their eyes blue, their hair flowing and predominantly reddish, their bodies large and their natures cold. Their general aspect is wild." 14

The ninth-century monk Druthmar of Aquitaine, in his commentary on Matthew 24:14 in Expositio in Matthaeum Evangelistam, stated that the Gazari, or Khazars, dwelt "in the lands of Gog and Magog." 15

Legends and stories abound, some of which are true according to the above quoted Aquitaine monk, that center around Alexander the Great and his attempt to enclose the Khazars and quarantine them, due to their violent and barbaric nature, from the rest of the civilized world. This endeavor apparently failed, Druthmar claimed, and they escaped. Some legends even claim they were cannibals. 16

After the kingdom's conversion to Judaism, the term "Red Jews" came into usage out of the superstition of medieval Germans, who equated their red hair and beards and their violent nature with deceit and dishonesty. It is also well documented that they heavily taxed those passing through their lands, for none dared refuse them. 17"

Thanks Don, I'll be studying too.

Originally posted by Nick1986 So the Khazars were Turks? What were their beliefs before they became Jews and what motivated them to convert?

Their origins are unsure; some suppose them to be Turks, some see them as Jews, one of the lost tribes, and I found enough info in the net to make a case of them being Scythians. I personally don't think they were Turks because they are described as tall, blue eyed and red-haired - those characteristics are neither Turkish, nor Semitic; but the Scythians were described like that too. The fact that they are mentioned in connection with Alexander the Great puts the Khazars in the time-frame of the Scythians, the Turkic people weren't around in this times yet. Sources that put them in 100 or 800 AD talk about them as Turkic people; those who place them in Alexanders's time, 4 centuries earlier, see them as Scythians, or Huns.

I guess I could opt for a mixed origin, like this genetic research blog puts it:
"... Khazars were a Central Asian people of Turkic, Hunnish and Iranian elements that arose in the Caucasus region. After converting to Judaism in the early Middle Ages, they moved westward into Russia and the Ukraine under pressure from Islam, eventually becoming a large component of Eastern and Central European Jewry...."http://dnaconsultants.com/_blog/DNA_Consultants_Blog/tag/Khazars/

This would explain all data, like read hair and blue eyes from Caucasus and Irania origin,; Tengiism came from the Turkic people; they were called "Huns"  by Pseudo-Kallistenes in connection with Alexander the Great who fought the Scythians. It's possible that both the Scythians between the Black and Caspian seas and the wave of coming whoever from Central Asia went by the name of Khazars; then the Scythians would have been the original Khazars, and whoever came in between 1-6 century from Central Asia and mixed with them became Khazars too, since in amy human migration one has more people living on one place than people coming in. Whatever the case only Causasian genesis can explain the light complexion, blue eyes and red hair.

This is another interesting studi I found, by a Russian historian  http://www.circassianworld.com/new/north-caucasus/1185-history-of-northern-caucasus-by-v-nabatchikov.html:
"... Khazars grew strength in the north-eastern part of Caspian Sea Coastal region, the Central Ciscaucasia was dominated by the Alani, which reappeared on the world arena as an independent force in connection with Iranian-Byzantine wars, in the north-east of Kuban steppes the Bulgarians were creating their own kingdom - the Great Bulgaria,the Early Adighe-Zikhi tribes were getting united in the Eastern Black Sea Coastal region. Formation of Khazar Khanate brought a strong impetus for restructuring of economic and social structure of the Northern Caucasus community. Common borders, centralized policies of Khazar khans resulted in successful development of integral common Khazar Culture, which was Alani-Bulgarian in its origin. ..."

So, the Alani /also called Scythians, josephus called them so/ were the indigenous population before the Khazars/here supposed to have been Turkic/ came from Central Asia; then they mixed, the Turkic people being dark in hair and eye, the Scythians/Alaini beign light/red haired and blue eyed.Here a map on where the Scythians/Sarmatians/Alani had their empire and that the same territory later became the Khazar Empire:



Those who consider them Turkic their religion was Tengriism  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengriism, a Central-Asian kinda primitive religion that combines shamanism, animism, totemism, with a god Tangra on the top of it. The Bolgars were supposed to be Tenriists before they accepted Christianity, but now this is challenged also. The Khazars didn't adopt Judaism till like 8-9 century AD, and they had mixture of Judaic and pagan people. I read somewhere that there was an important Jewish community in the Khazar Empire, so it's possible that they brought
 Judaism in. I don't think it was politically related, like say, the conversion of the Poles to Catholicism or the Bulgars to Orthodox Christianity.

This source says otherwise:
"...This much is known: In the mid-eighth century, the ruling elite of the Khazars, a Turkic tribe in Eurasia, converted to Judaism. Their impetus was political, not spiritual. By embracing Judaism, the Khazars were able to maintain their independence from rival monotheistic states, the Muslim caliphate and the Christian Byzantine empire. Governed by a version of rabbinical law, the Khazar Jewish kingdom flourished along the Volga basin until the beginning of the second millennium, at which point it dissolved, leaving behind a mystery: Did the Khazar converts to Judaism remain Jews, and, if so, what became of them? ..."http://spme.net/cgi-bin/articles.cgi?ID=6125

but I personally don't buy that because one accepts a religion for politcal reasons when one can make a important political alliance, and I don't see what kind of allience whey could make with Judaism in 6-11 century AD in their particular location.





Edited by Don Quixote - 25-Aug-2011 at 20:26

I have a darker complexion in the summer working in the thinner air of the upper alpine pastures. Love Polish food, drink copious amounts of beer like a good Pole, have blue eyes and a mustache that turns blondish red in the warmer months as does my arm hair. My work ethic is beyond reproach and  I speak fluent German and Spanish. This however, does not make me either a Khazar, a Pole, nor a long lost Semitic-Jew from the lost tribes that went into captivity into Babylon.

Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 02-Nov-2011 at 20:01