Iran has very limited amount of R1a1

Originally posted by Vispaiti Originally posted by MediaWarLord Only 19% of Iranic people in the capital of Tajikistan, Dushanbe, belong to hg R1a. Tajikistan is in Central Asia. It seems that true Iranic people don't have that much of R1a. And Slavic people that have that much R1a is because of the Turks from Central Asia. Turks, Tatars, Huns and Mongols brought more of hg R1a to Russia. Russia had already more than 20% of R1a, but because of the Mongol and Tatar invasions into Russia their percentage of hg R1a jumped to above 50%.   Iranian people (Ossetians (Alans), Iranians (Persians) and Kurds (Medes)) in the Middle East don't have that much R1a. sorry but most tajiks have 50% R1a :High frequencies of R1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198; 50 to 70%) are found among the Ishkashimis, Khujand Tajiks, Panjakent Tajiks.Eastern afghan tajiks(parwan,panjshir,badakshan) have also very much r1a but farswiwan of ghor,herat,farah are similar to persians Persians are just iranized elamites and it is very ironic that Persia is today called land of aryans

Tajiks have 50% the Bengali Brahmins have 72%, the Mohanna tribes have 70%.

Originally posted by PakistaniShield Originally posted by mojobadshah If DNA can't trace race mixing then don't you think DNA is kind of limited in identifying the PIE people? That's not what I stated. I stated the Y-chromosome can't change no matter how mixed you are. If you go deeper into DNA then you can find the different ancestries of an ethnicity, however the Y-chromosome in males is still unchanged. So when you have males having the same Y-chromosomes in different parts of the world or both genders sharing common mtDNA , speaking languages of the same origin, it's fair to assume they have common ancestors who spoke a language ancestral to the ones spoken by the modern speakers.

North India is Aryavartta while Persia is elamite land, the Persians are just Aryanized elamites, the Aryans were nomad milk drinkers from the Kurgan who move to south asia way back in time, R1a1 in Bengali Brahmins is 72%, Mohanna tribes is 70%, and Afghan Pashtuns only have 52%. Read the Rig Vedas which are the oldest Aryan manuscripts just like the Swastika that Hitler uses is found mostly in the Indus Valley and no where else.

Wrong, Indians did use the word Aryan to relate to themselves, they called themselves Aryan people, that is the reason for the whole caste system, the Brahmin, Kshtriya, and the Banias were Aryan stock, the Shudras and Untouchables were Dravidian stock, till this day the caste system is there, the Aryan people of India came on war chariots from the Kurgan 50,000 years ago and established Rig Veda Hinduism which is an Aryan religion, the Swastika that Hitler used was a Indo Aryan symbol, the land of northern India was called Aryavartta which means abode of the Aryans, 85% of India is lactose intolerant, whereas the northern 15% are lactose tolerant because Aryans were milk drinkers, you still have groups like Arya Samaj in India, R1a1 is a Aryan haplogroup and India's R1a1 is much older than Europe, not only that Bengali Brahmins have 72% of it, the most R1a1 is found in south asia among Brahmins at 72%, Mohanna tribes at 70%, and Punjabi groups at 60%, the Afghan Pashtuns are 52%, Persians are J, which isn't anywhere near the Kurgan where Aryans originated from, all Aryan traditions food clothing genetics religion are in India, the Persians neither have the genes, traditions, clothing that relates them to Aryan people.

Originally posted by mojobadshah If DNA can't trace race mixing then don't you think DNA is kind of limited in identifying the PIE people?

That's not what I stated. I stated the Y-chromosome can't change no matter how mixed you are. If you go deeper into DNA then you can find the different ancestries of an ethnicity, however the Y-chromosome in males is still unchanged.

So when you have males having the same Y-chromosomes in different parts of the world or both genders sharing common mtDNA , speaking languages of the same origin, it's fair to assume they have common ancestors who spoke a language ancestral to the ones spoken by the modern speakers.





Edited by PakistaniShield - 09-Jan-2014 at 18:05

Originally posted by mojobadshah Is tracing PIE people using only genetics will result in a very linear model of descent.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a lot of diversity within an ethnic group?  What ethnic group is pure?  The Pashtun's look like they have a very high percentage of R1a1a, but there are other Pashtun haplogroups like L and J.  There is no 1 haplogroup that designates the Parsis too.  So why would the PIE people have been composed of only 1 haplogroup.

because in ancient times race mixing was much less common due to difficulty in mobility. Also when people are speaking related languages and having common haplogroups, we then conclude that the shared haplogroup was the haplogroup of the common ancestor.

There were also DNA tests done on Tocharian mummies in China and similar results must have come out.

Is tracing PIE people using only genetics will result in a very linear model of descent.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a lot of diversity within an ethnic group?  What ethnic group is pure?  The Pashtun's look like they have a very high percentage of R1a1a, but there are other Pashtun haplogroups like L and J.  There is no 1 haplogroup that designates the Parsis too.  So why would the PIE people have been composed of only 1 haplogroup.  

Originally posted by PakistaniShield   As i explained Haplogroup R1A1 is a subclade of haplogroup R. It is haplogroup R that is associated with Indo-European peoples, while the subclades are associated with different indo-european sub-races.

Originally posted by mojobadshah Looking at the map it looks like Eastern Europe has the highest concentration of R1a1a.  And if the PIE people had R1a1a would that mean that they probably originated somewhere in Eastern Europe?  And if this is the case wouldn't that disprove the Anatolian PIE homeland hypothesis?  On the other hand, the reason I brought up the possible mixed origin of the PIE people is because of a paper I read by Michael Witzel.  If Witzel is right, the fact that Anatolia is a mixed population would make it a likely candidate for the PIE homeland wouldn't it?

Originally posted by mojobadshah I understand that J and R are different haplotypes, but this doesn't rule out the possibility that the Proto-Indo-European speakers were of mixed haplotypes.  Language travels faster than people.  Or is there anything illogical about this?

Edited by Ollios - 05-Oct-2013 at 00:57

Originally posted by mojobadshah And this is just totally idiotic.  The Irano-Afghans called themselves Aryans collectively.  Their homeland was called Airyana.  The Indics only used "Aryan" as an adjective.  Nationally they were called Purus or Barattas.   Its like one of the few cases where a people's language is not named after their national epyonym.  The English speak English the Irish speak Irish the Germans speak German, but the Indics speak "noble."  You know what I'm saying?  Your right that nationality and language are two different things.  But the language of the Irano-Afghans (Aryans) is called Iranian or Iranic because their homeland was Iran (Aryana).   "Aryan" is restricted to the Indo-Iranians and most justly to the latter because Iran means Aryan.  But since WWII it has also come to mean white, a meaning that developed because the Indo-Europeans were thought to be peopled by whites.    Anyway to expound upon my original answer to the original question.  The idea of the Aryans even as a superior race is not totally unfounded.  The Germans were probably not the root race.  They were not the Proto-Aryans or Proto-Indo-Europeans, but like the rest of the Aryans or Indo-Europeans their descendants.  And the Indo-Europeans otherwise known as Aryans, the proposed R1a1a or maybe J2 or I haplogroup just looking at the Irano-Aryans were very powerful, and underrated at the same time.  For example Zoroaster is said to be the most influential figure who ever lived because it is the root of the West's religious heritage and even Islam, but the average individual has never heard of Zoroaster.  This fact has intellectual potential.  Then there's the fact that the Persians established the world's first world empire Persia, the largest empire ever proportionately and to think that they did this by sheer man and horsepower before there were guns.  Of course this fact was overshadowed by Alexander.  But the Greek Empires and Roman Empires which were Indo-European and very powerful.  Lastly there's the language aspect.  Indo-European is the most widespread language superfamily in the world, English an IE. language being the lingua franca and Spanish the second.  There's nothing mythological or fabricated about this.

A lot of what you have written is questionable. Firstly the terminology of places, people, languages etc. do almost always have their origins in something physical.  Like Aryan being spoken by the Indo-Aryans as you just mentioned.

The same can be stated for Germans, French English, all these terms have origins in a physical idea if you research them going back far enough. For example Finns call their language "Suominen" in Finnish. The term Suominen comes from "Suomi" the Finnish word for Finland. According to a Finnish person I know, the term Suomi originates in reference to "swamp" because the area of Finland that was settled by the Finns was an area of swamps.

So if you take this term far back enough, Finns speak the language of the land of the swamps. Finns are the people of the land of the swamps. Today it might not hold that much meaning, but the term is there for a reason.

Same way the Indo-Aryans speak or rather spoke the language of the nobles if the term is traced back correctly. To correct your confusion, the evolution of Indo-Aryan languages goes by Proto-Indo-Iranic> Proto-Indo-Aryan>Sanskrit> modern Indo-Aryan languages.

Your statement that Persians established the first empire is questionable as there are many empires worldwide found throughout history. A world empire would be the British or French Empire.

Indo-European is a family of languages, super families are currently hypothetical families that consists of multiple language families such as Nostratic.

The first reference to Aryan is most likely Sanskrit. Persian kings might have them to refer to their self noblety, which originated in Sanskrit.

Also J2 is not associated with Indo-Europeans as far as I know. J2 is claimed to have originated in mesepotamia and associated with middle eastern and Mediterranean populations, mostly southern Europeans and North Africans.

Haplogroup J and R are very two different haplotypes.