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Cywr
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Topic: Who is the greatest military leader of the medieval period? Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 14:04 |
Originally posted by Exarchus
I though Gauls fought against Attila at Chalons along
with the Visigoths, Franks, Romans, Saxons, Burgundians, Alans
ect......
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Thats obviously western propaganda
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Arrrgh!!"
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Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 16:52 |
Belisarius was the best because he gained his victories over strong enemies and in bad times when his empire in not greatest situation
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Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 19:30 |
many tribes from germania, gaul joined him
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Cywr
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Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 19:51 |
And even more oppsed them.
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Arrrgh!!"
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The Golden Phallanx
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Posted: 29-Apr-2005 at 18:11 |
Originally posted by Cywr
Originally posted by Exarchus
I though Gauls fought against Attila at Chalons along with the Visigoths, Franks, Romans, Saxons, Burgundians, Alans ect...... |
Thats obviously western propaganda
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Yea I know it's so obvious eh? We're all just being brain-washed aren't we! Very effective propaganda, it's being posted everywhere!
ps: Would you ppl stop saying "western" propaganda, or western lies, or how the west invents the "facts"...etc There are lies everywhere people, not jsut in the west. Set down your prejudices and start considering other sources. Persoanlly I trust western documents above nonexistant asian ones.
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We are all a result of what we have lived. Culture, attitude, perspective. For everything we do, there is a reason. There is no true evil, only the absence of proper communication.
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The Golden Phallanx
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Posted: 29-Apr-2005 at 18:19 |
Originally posted by Ahmed Abbas
Belisarius was the best because he gained his victories over strong enemies and in bad times when his empire in not greatest situation |
Belisarius certainly was a great general, but let us not forget Slilicho!
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We are all a result of what we have lived. Culture, attitude, perspective. For everything we do, there is a reason. There is no true evil, only the absence of proper communication.
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Kenaney
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Posted: 30-Apr-2005 at 14:34 |
My vote goes to Atilla the Hun because he brought a change in European ethnic groups and history.
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Decebal
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Posted: 25-May-2005 at 11:24 |
Genghis Khan. Not a lot of people know this, but he rose from almost nothing. An outcast from his tribe, he grew up in hiding with his mother and brothers. Through sheer determination, he first gained control of his old clan, usurped by his uncle, then the entire tribe of the Mongols.He then proceeded to unite the numerous Mongolic tribes, such as the Merkits, Onggirats, Uigurs, etc. This was achieved in numerous bloddy battels, often against superior forces.
He then conquered Northern China, the Kara-Khitans, and Kwharezm: altogether an area as large as Europe. His sons and grandons proceeded to expand this territory to almost all of Asia and Eastern Europe.
His greatest merit I think, lies in his rising from obscurity to unify the Mongol tribes. Many people will tell you that archers on horseback will defeat the infantry-based armies of sedentary peoples, but he had to fight against other armies based on horse archers as well and won.
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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 26-May-2005 at 22:09 |
Firstly, Komenos is right about Belisarius, he did not receive the ungrateful end some historians paint. Proof of this is that monuments of the great general existed in Constantinople for hundreds of years after his death. Had he really been humiliated there is no way Justinian would have allowed these to stand.
Id be throwing up between Genghis and Belisarius. I have massive respect for any man who goes from eating rodents as a boy to being the most powerful man alive. I am not too sure of Genghis' actual ability to command though, he could easily have left the commanding to competent subordinates. I think the Khan's greatest achievement was political: unifying the steppe tribes through determination and uncompomising brutality and then channeling their abilities into attacks on traditionally more powerful enemies. With Belisarius though, we have a clear close-up perspective of a brilliantly imaginative and charismatic commander. Have a read of the Siege of Rome when he defended it from Vitigis and you gain some measure of the resourcefulness of the man. The fact that he was politically non-active was only a praiseworthy trait in him, a fact which Justinian would have done well to acknowledge.
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Reginmund
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Posted: 27-May-2005 at 14:10 |
I have this infatuation with Robert Guiscard...
Granted, he never had the resources or manpower of Belisarius, Genghis Khan, Richard or Saladin, but he certainly made most of what he had. The Hauteville family were virtually nobodies in Normandy before setting out for the Mediterranean. Later they had defeated enemies as diverse as the Lombards, Greeks and Saracens, creating a kingdom which far outshone the Duchy of Normandy.
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Komnenos
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Posted: 28-May-2005 at 10:30 |
Originally posted by Reginmund
I have this infatuation with Robert Guiscard...
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Quite a family, the Guiscards, first Robert's formidable wife, Sikelgaita the "Warrior Princess", daughter of a Lombard King who used to fight side by side with her husband in battles.
Then Bohemund, Robert's son from a previous marriage, giant of a knight, terror of the Byzantine empire, arch-enemy of my great forefather Alexios Komnenos, one of the leaders of the first crusade, Prince of Antioch, etc.
Then Robert Guiscard's grandson Tancred,another leader of the crusade and first Christian to enter Jerusalem when the city was taken in 1099 and later Prince of Galilee.
And so on, they made quite in impact in Italy and the Levant.
Edited by Komnenos
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Reginmund
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Posted: 28-May-2005 at 11:33 |
Originally posted by Komnenos
Quite a family, the Guiscards, first Robert's formidable wife, Sikelgaita the "Warrior Princess", daughter of a Lombard King who used to fight side by side with her husband in battles. |
I didn't know Sikelgaita was such a tough bitch, haha, thanks for the input. And just for the sake of correctness, "Guiscard" was only a nickname given to Robert, not their family name, that was Hauteville.
Originally posted by Komnenos
...they made quite in impact in Italy and the Levant. |
Yeah, they kicked ass.
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faram
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Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 16:44 |
Originally posted by YAFES
Originally posted by Winterhaze13
Attila the Hun- Terrorized the Roman Empre in the 5th cetury A.D.
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you western, allways show facts what you want them to seem.
Attila didn't terrorize the Roman Empire. He taught the Gaul, the Germans, and all others how to re-gain "their lands"
so that's why all barbarian europeans joined him
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I think, but I'm not an English native speaker, that here terrorize doesn't mean be a terrorist but cause terror, considering that he caused fear to the Romans without destroying them, it's correct.
My vote has gone for Belisarius.
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Sanimideg
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Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 10:19 |
SERBIAN EMPEROR DUSHAN ALMIGHTY! |
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SRBIJA DO TOKIJA!
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Goblin
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Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 14:49 |
I voted "Other".
Greatest leader does not, necessarily, mean nicest or that most agree with him. Anyhow, I would vote for Simon de Montfort. He was the key military leader in the Albigensian Crusade. Due to the fact that he was ruthless and much of what aimed for was personal gain, he is often downplayed. I believe that, without his leadership, that particular crusade would not have made it as far as it did. The crusade, finally, began to falter around the time of his demise . (Yeah, I just wanted an excuse to use that smiley.)
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Komnenos
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Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 16:57 |
Originally posted by Goblin
I voted "Other".
Greatest leader does not, necessarily, mean nicest or that most agree with him. Anyhow, I would vote for Simon de Montfort. He was the key military leader in the Albigensian Crusade. Due to the fact that he was ruthless and much of what aimed for was personal gain, he is often downplayed. I believe that, without his leadership, that particular crusade would not have made it as far as it did. The crusade, finally, began to falter around the time of his demise |
Although I agree with most you've said about Simon de Monfort, I believe he is not in the same league as any of the other above contestants, just simply because he only played in the second or third division.
The historical significance of the Albigensian Crusade has become rather overestimated in the last two decades, due to the inclusion of the Cathars in that great fictional web of conspiracy, Cathars, Templars, Rosicruscians etc. that has been popularised through numerous novels and pseudo-factual accounts.
In fact, this crusade was a rather minor affair, a petty struggle for the dominance obver the South-West of France, between the local houses of Toulouse and Trencavel, the Kings of Aragon and France, and some rootless adventures like Simon de Montfort. The whole scale of this crusade was so small, the numbers of combatants involved so low, that you just are not able compare the military abilities of S.d.M. with those of Attila or Belisarius etc.
Simon never commanded more than a few thousand men, he never fought any real battles that demanded strategical genius, the whole campaign in the Midi was just an endless sequence of sieges of small cities and even smaller castles, with the occasional skirmish and pillage of the countryside thrown in for good measure.
Sure, Simon made the best of what was to his disposal, which wasn't a lot, and through sheer ambition and ruthlessness and the lack of any really organised enemies and resistance, he carved out a nice little territory for himself, but how he would have performed in a real war, in a real battle, we'll never know.
His crusade was in rapid decline even before his death, mainly due to the lack of military and political support, but also because of a chain of his own military and political blunders that showed the limitations of Simon de Montfort's abilities.
Edited by Komnenos
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 22:49 |
Remember the siege of Beziers when they were storming the city and the issue of it being inhabited by both heretics and Catholics arose. "Kill them all, God will recognise his own" de Montfort said. What a lazy bum.
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Komnenos
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Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 01:09 |
Originally posted by Constantine XI
Remember the siege of Beziers when they were storming the city and the issue of it being inhabited by both heretics and Catholics arose. "Kill them all, God will recognise his own"de Montfort said. What a lazy bum. |
You can blame Simon de Montfort for many things, but not for that famous cynical statement. That was Arnauld-Amaury, Archbishop of Narbonne, a good Catholic it seems.
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Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 02:42 |
Ah yes you are correct, my mistake. But that statement is just shocking. What a nice way for Innocent III to wipe clean the desolation brought about by the 4th Crusade, launch another crusade and hope it's success clears everyone's memory of past atrocities.
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Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 12:28 |
He then proceeded to unite the numerous Mongolic tribes, such as the Merkits, Onggirats, Uigurs, etc. This was achieved in numerous bloddy battels, often against superior forces. |
Uigurs are Turkic, not Mongolic. Besides, many Turkic tribes joined him in his conquests. The biggest population in the Mongolian army was consisted of Turkic tribes', such as Uzbeks, Turkmens and Uygurs.
Timur was the greatest among these leaders. He was a very successful and wise military man, and a smart warior. Salahaddin Eyub, Genghiz Khan, Attila, Belisarius, Kul Tigin, Mete Han, Alp Arslan, and Turghril Begh were also important military leaders of that age...
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