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Egyptian origins (race/ethnicity)

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Egyptian origins (race/ethnicity)
    Posted: 20-Nov-2011 at 16:55
Originally posted by MKGlouisville

Originally posted by Don Quixote

How rude! This is an international forum, with members from all kinds of countries!


No referring to the OP as a "troll" is RUDE!

Not everyone was raised with English


Likewise, I'm just reminding him of that fact. Don't stand in the kitchen if you can't stand the heat. If you're going to blatantly insult me,  then don't expect for me to reply back kindly to you.

MK, i've already warned you once. Next time you insult someone or go off-topic you'll be suspended. Stick to the original subject-matter of the topic: the origins of the Egyptian civilisation.
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  Quote Ancient Dravidian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2011 at 17:04
Originally posted by MKGlouisville

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

There you go, MKGlouisville, the second you admit it is focused on a smaller area than the whole with other areas missed you are unable to prove the people weren't mixed.


No not necessarily! I've explained to you some of the reasons why studies tend to focus of early southern Egyptians than those of the north in my previous post. One reason that I left out is the sheer lack of archaeological material and physical remains in northern Egypt which date back to the Pre-Dynastic and Early periods. That is not to say however that no research has been conducted on the limited sample size already available. Below are the results of limb proportion ratios of Pre-Dynastic Lower Egyptians and it's comparison to other populations:

"sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans." (Barry Kemp, "Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation. (2005) Routledge. p. 52-60)


As you can see the biological affinities of early Lower Egyptians are also with more southerly tropical African populations and not with Near Eastern or Europeans, which the author suggest is due to a lack of common ancestry between indigenous northern Egyptians and the latter mentioned populations.

Denouncing the artwork is one thing, explaining then why a black population might paint themselves as white is another.


Excuse me?







While I don't doubt that populations whom would generally be referred to 'Caucasian' would become present in Late Dynastic Egypt (due to invasions and migration), to say that the ancient Egyptian depicted themselves as "white" is simply not true. 

I think these pictures look very authentic. It's a clear testimony for the Egyptian appearance. No doubt they were a very homogenic black people. In those times mass migration like in modern times was not possible. This is just another final fantasy of Ariosophists. I commend your dedication in this thread.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2011 at 17:14
Originally posted by Ancient Dravidian

I think these pictures look very authentic. It's a clear testimony for the Egyptian appearance. No doubt they were a very homogenic black people. In those times mass migration like in modern times was not possible. This is just another final fantasy of Ariosophists. I commend your dedication in this thread.
I would agree with the authenticity of the pictures, though as these links show they are only a representative of a section of the population.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2011 at 17:28
This might also add to this discussion. Don Quixote posted this information on the archaeology thread a little time ago, and suggests a pattern of migration showing movement in and out of Africa in ancient times, including Egypt. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2057546/Early-humans-Africa-route-Arabia-Egypt.html#ixzz1cp4Ri61B
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2011 at 18:25
Originally posted by MKGlouisville

Originally posted by Don Quixote



http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28872&KW=&PID=658279#658279



 

If doesn't matter  for the needs of this thread that Afro-Asiatic may have originated or not in East Africa, the thread is not about where it originated from, so I;m not going to artue and give you names of linguists who root for Middle-Eastern origin.  The map you posted shows migrations from the Arabian penninsula to Africa in 4000-3000 BC  - so there was migration, which means ethnic mixing. I sited a source that Ancient Egyptian is closer to Berber, not to Nilo-Saharan, if you don't like it this is not my problem.

The Berbers have Afro-Asiatic genesis, Middle-Eastern, not Nilo-Saharan, that is genetically supported, so they didn't develop out of migrating Nilo-Saharans:
"...Genetic evidence in support of a shared Eurasian-North African dairying origin

Sean Myles, Nourdine Bouzekri, Eden Haverfield, Mohamed Cherkaoui, Jean-Michel Dugoujon and Ryk Ward

The process by which pastoralism and agriculture spread from the Fertile Crescent over the past 10,000 years has been the subject of intense investigation by geneticists, linguists and archaeologists. However, no consensus has been reached as to whether this Neolithic transition is best characterized by a demic diffusion (with a significant genetic input from migrating farmers) or a cultural diffusion (without substantial migration of farmers). Milk consumption and thus lactose tolerance are assumed to have spread with pastoralism and we propose that by looking at the relevant mutations in and around the lactase gene in human populations, we can gain insight into the origin(s) and spread of dairying. We genotyped the putatively causal allele for lactose tolerance (–13910T) and constructed haplotypes from several polymorphisms in and around the lactase gene (LCT) in three North African Berber populations and compared our results with previously published data. We found that the frequency of the –13910T allele predicts the frequency of lactose tolerance in several Eurasian and North African Berber populations but not in most sub-Saharan African populations. Our analyses suggest that contemporary Berber populations possess the genetic signature of a past migration of pastoralists from the Middle East and that they share a dairying origin with Europeans and Asians, but not with sub-Saharan Africans...."http://www.springerlink.com/content/x428750458w4080r/

So, with the Berbers being middle-Eastern and Egyptian being close/related to Berber I'll suppose at least cultural overlapping, which would mean mixing of population through marriage, since this is what people do when they meet - they interbreed. /I didn't mean to bold this line, it just came out like that and i can't fix it/

The Ancient Egyptians and the Nubians were close, there is no doubt in that, as two ethnicities that live close get biologically closed because they intermarry; this doesn't make them the same. Ancient Egyptians had another affinities too, unless you refuse to look upon any research that proves that; I posted such research. There is always cultural and biological overlapping when 2 ethnicities live close together, this don't prove the same origin.

"...mtDNA analysis of Nile River Valley populations: A genetic corridor or a barrier to migration?
M Krings, A E Salem, K Bauer, H Geisert, A K Malek, L Chaix, C Simon, D Welsby, A Di Rienzo, G Utermann, A Sajantila, S Pääbo, and M Stoneking
To assess the extent to which the Nile River Valley has been a corridor for human migrations between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa, we analyzed mtDNA variation in 224 individuals from various locations along the river. Sequences of the first hypervariable segment (HV1) of the mtDNA control region and a polymorphic HpaI site at position 3592 allowed us to designate each mtDNA as being of "northern" or "southern" affiliation. Proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the southern Sudan. At slowly evolving sites within HV1, northern-mtDNA diversity was highest in Egypt and lowest in the southern Sudan, and southern-mtDNA diversity was highest in the southern Sudan and lowest in Egypt, indicating that migrations had occurred bidirectionally along the Nile River Valley. Egypt and Nubia have low and similar amounts of divergence for both mtDNA types, which is consistent with historical evidence for long-term interactions between Egypt and Nubia. Spatial autocorrelation analysis demonstrates a smooth gradient of decreasing genetic similarity of mtDNA types as geographic distance between sampling localities increases, strongly suggesting gene flow along the Nile, with no evident barriers. We conclude that these migrations probably occurred within the past few hundred to few thousand years and that the migration from north to south was either earlier or lesser in the extent of gene flow than the migration from south to north...." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
/pmc/articles/PMC1377841/


So, there was gene flow between Nubia and Egypt, but also significant differences - Egypt was far more diverse than Nubia. All of the genetic  and cultural similarities between Egypt and Nubia testify to the normal overlap that happens when people live close together, nothing else; people migrate and mix all the time. The studies I posted include the pre-Dynastic period.
Mainstream research - of course, Ehret,  Boyce and Keita - what about other research? The studies I posted here are real ones too, not dirt on the road, no matter what you think about them. Anyway, when I am presented with studies that cover wide compass and show several different affinities I'm going to trust all of those studies and come up with supposition that fits the facts, not the other way around.


Edited by Don Quixote - 20-Nov-2011 at 19:51
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2011 at 19:00
Originally posted by MKGlouisville

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

There you go, MKGlouisville, the second you admit it is focused on a smaller area than the whole with other areas missed you are unable to prove the people weren't mixed.


While I don't doubt that populations whom would generally be referred to 'Caucasian' would become present in Late Dynastic Egypt (due to invasions and migration), to say that the ancient Egyptian depicted themselves as "white" is simply not true. 

peoples
From the Tomb of Seti I - Syrian, Nubian, Lybian and Egyptian - the Egyptian and the Nubian are obviously don't share the same representation - so the Egyptians didn't see themselves as black either. This seems as mixed to me as mixed can be; and such mixing doesn't happen overnight.

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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2011 at 19:09
Originally posted by MKGlouisville

Originally posted by Don Quixote

those that I post can be followed, unlike the blind ones that I see posted here and cannot be followed at all.


The peer reviewed articles that I have posted for the most part have been posted in full and cited to the page number of the journal, therefore there is nothing being withheld from you or others.
 
I'm not interested in copy-pasted pages that I cannot follow, so don't bother


Well what would have been more honest on your behalf was to give a link to the thread on Anthroscape in which you copy and pasted another individuals entire argument.

I'm not promoting any "Arian claims' so lay those insinuations off. The studies I posted don't promote "Arian claims" they state facts,


While their finding aren't necessarily untrue, the methods in which they used to demonstrate population relatedness are superficial. Who seriously asserts that both ancient Egyptians AND Nubians (who group closest to one another) had closer biological affinities to French , English and German Europeans? Seriously!

On the dental study referenced in that thread Racial Reality's main opponent provided a study which confirmed that due to dietary changes population on the Nile Valley began to display reduced tooth sizes, which is evidence that those earlier studies could not include in with their findings.  

The peer review you posted cannot be followed online on a link that you didn't provide - as far as I'm concerned this is a blind quote /I cannot follow it online on a link/. As far as I can remember you didn't post even one study that I can follow online, not on those 2-3 last pages here. I don't know what you call those references, I call them "blind quotes".

I quoted the studies, not the arguments on the guy - I'm interested in studies, not in arguments. I was unaware that if I site a study that has been used by another persons I have to site all that have been using that study.
If you see yourself as competent to disqualify academic studies, go ahead, I don't feel myself so. I take the studies as being honest and presenting real finds; then I try to make sense out of what is found to be a fact.

I know about the dental metric study, I read the part of the study quoted but I couldn't follow it, because it's not linked. But if you want I can link the guy who argued against the dental-change-due-to-diet here it is:
"...Caucasoids have simple mass-reduced teeth, and Negroids have complex mass-additive teeth. Prehistoric peoples also have the latter, and the evidence you posted has actually been used to argue against Negroid affinities in early Nubians:..."http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/3973609/1/
And the studies this guy used are here:http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2010/01/mesolithic-nubians-probably-werent.html
The studies linked there are worth reading, easily accessible on the net for everyone to use, only a click away.
I hope you are satisfied.





Edited by Don Quixote - 20-Nov-2011 at 23:53
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2011 at 11:30
Originally posted by MKGlouisville

Originally posted by medenaywe

Your data are obsolete cause of DNA compared data with DNA inside ancient graveyards:population inside the empire was discussed here,pharaohs had changed till civilization existence.Did those data compare with
DNA of people in Med sea area MK?
P.S.
Barak Husein Obama is "pharaoh" with part of Somalian blood  that does  not means  USA  people are  all
Somalians.Big smile 


Before you hurl insults at other people, please master the English language first. I've reframed from addressing many of your post, due your completely butchered sentence structure and the fact that your thought process is jumping from corner to corner. I generally don't insult a persons grammar, but your post take the cake!
 
 
Your not doing so hot yourself bub. It's refrained, not reframed and take should be plural.  And you should take your own advice about hurling insults.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2011 at 14:56
Originally posted by red clay

Your not doing so hot yourself bub. It's refrained, not reframed and take should be plural.  And you should take your own advice about hurling insults.
In your opinion, red clay, do you believe it is better grammar to say, "I generally don't insult a person's grammar, but your post take the cake!", instead of, "I generally don't insult a persons grammar, but your post take the cake!"?Shift+R improves the quality of this image. Shift+A improves the quality of all images on this page.
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  Quote MKGlouisville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2011 at 15:47
Originally posted by Don Quixote

If doesn't matter  for the needs of this thread that Afro-Asiatic may have originated or not in East Africa, the thread is not about where it originated from,


The origins of the language spoken by the ancient Egyptians is an integral aspect of this debate, and has been explained in detail by Christopher Ehret (linguistic authority) in the article posted in the OP. I suspect that you reason you wish to discard this aspect is because it's painfully obvious that Afro-Asiatic originated in modern day Ethiopia and not the Middle East as you have postulated (ounsourced might I add).

The map you posted shows migrations from the Arabian penninsula to Africa in 4000-3000 BC  - so there was migration, which means ethnic mixing.


The part of the map that you are talking about is referring to the introduction of Arabic, due to the Arab invasion of 700 A.D. (centuries after the last Dynasty of ancient Egypt). That is why the arrow pointing westward is colored black and not of any of the colors indicating thousands of years in between. Therefore your point is moot.

I sited a source that Ancient Egyptian is closer to Berber, not to Nilo-Saharan, if you don't like it this is not my problem.


Do you understand how silly that is. OF COURSE the ancient Egyptian language would be closer to other Afro-Asiatic languages then a non Afro-Asiatic language (Nilo Saharan).

The Berbers have Afro-Asiatic genesis, Middle-Eastern, not Nilo-Saharan, that is genetically supported, so they didn't develop out of migrating Nilo-Saharans:
"...Genetic evidence in support of a shared Eurasian-North African dairying origin


A more recent 2010 study (Frigi) has taken all of this into consideration and has concluded that the population base of North African Berbers are of Sub Saharan East African origins:

"Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa."

-- Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Frigi et al. Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)


So, with the Berbers being middle-Eastern and Egyptian being close/related to Berber I'll suppose at least cultural overlapping


Your entire theory is nothing more than speculation, which is based on one faulty study (which undermines indigenous African genetic diversity). One other fact that you are obviously unaware of is that North Africans have a gradient of genetic affinities from East to West. Egyptian Berbers being in the East overlap genetically with more southerly Northeast African populations (Ethiopians) and Northwest Berbers group closely with Iberian populations:

"The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated.. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations."-- Coudray et al. (2008). The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations. Annals of Human Genetics. Volume 73 Issue 2, Pages 196 - 214


The Ancient Egyptians and the Nubians were close, there is no doubt in that, as two ethnicities that live close get biologically closed because they intermarry; this doesn't make them the same. Ancient Egyptians had another affinities too, unless you refuse to look upon any research that proves that; I posted such research. There is always cultural and biological overlapping when 2 ethnicities live close together, this don't prove the same origin.


lol As I've stated earlier you should really be careful when you copy and paste another individuals arguments word for word. Racial Reality KNEW that it was futile to attempt to differentiate the ancient Egyptians and Nubians from one another biologically (simply because the evidence is overwhelming that they were the same) which is why the title of the thread from which you copied your argument is called "The Caucasoid affinities of the ancient Egyptians AND Nubians". Notice every single chart that you posted shows that the closest population to the ancient Egyptians were the Nubians (The Kerma sample, if you didn't already know). Do you see? In order for the ancient Egyptians to not have been black Africans then logically you will have to also argue that the Nubians were not black Africans either, because study after study after study confirms that those populations were essentially the same. In fact a 2009 study was conducted solely on the biological relationship of the both Northeast African populations and have AGAIN found what study after study after study has concluded about them:

"The Mahalanobis D2 analysis uncovered close affinities between Nubians and Egyptians. Table 3 lists the Mahalanobis D2 distance matrix... In some cases, the statistics reveal that the Egyptian samples were more similar to Nubian samples than to other Egyptian samples (e.g. Gizeh and Hesa/Biga) and vice versa (e.g. Badari and Kerma, Naqada and Christian). These relationships are further depicted in the PCO plot (Fig. 2).

The clustering of the Nubian and Egyptian samples together supports this paper's hypothesis and demonstrates that there may be a close relationship between the two populations. This relationship is consistent with Berry and Berry (1972), among others, who noted a similarity between Nubians and Egyptians.

Both mtDNA (Krings et al., 1999) and Y-Chromosome data (Hassan et al., 2008; Keita, 2005; Lucotte and Mercier, 2003) indicate that migrations, usually bidirectional, occurred along the Nile. Thus, the osteological material used in this analysis also supports the DNA evidence.

On this basis, many have postulated that the Badarians are relatives to South African populations (Morant, 1935 G. Morant, A study of predynastic Egyptian skulls from Badari based on measurements taken by Miss BN Stoessiger and Professor DE Derry, Biometrika 27 (1935), pp. 293–309.Morant, 1935; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Irish and Konigsberg, 2007). The archaeological evidence points to this relationship as well. (Hassan, 1986) and (Hassan, 1988) noted similarities between Badarian pottery and the Neolithic Khartoum type, indicating an archaeological affinity among Badarians and Africans from more southern regions. Furthermore, like the Badarians, Naqada has also been classified with other African groups, namely the Teita (Crichton, 1996; Keita, 1990).

Nutter (1958) noted affinities between the Badarian and Naqada samples, a feature that Strouhal (1971) attributed to their skulls possessing “Negroid” traits. Keita (1992), using craniometrics, discovered that the Badarian series is distinctly different from the later Egyptian series, a conclusion that is mostly confirmed here. In the current analysis, the Badari sample more closely clusters with the Naqada sample and the Kerma sample. However, it also groups with the later pooled sample from Dynasties XVIII–XXV.

The reoccurring notation of Kerma affinities with Egyptian groups is not entirely surprising. Kerma was an integral part of the trade between Egypt and Nubia.

However, the archaeological evidence actually showed slow change in form over time (Adams, 1977) and the biological evidence demonstrated a similar trend in the skeletal data (e.g. Godde, in press; Van Gerven et al., 1977). These conclusions negate the possibility of invasion or migration causing the shifts in time periods. The results in this study are consistent with prior work; the Meroites and X-Group cluster with the remaining Nubian population and are not differentiated.

Gene flow may account for the homogeneity across these Nubian and Egyptian groups and is consistent with the biological diffusion precept. Small geographic distances between groups allow for the exchange of genes.The similarities uncovered by this study may be explained by another force, adaptation.. resemblance may be indicative of a common adaptation to a similar geographic location, rather than gene flow Egypt and Nubia have similar terrain and climate. Because of the similarity between and the overlapping of the two territories that would require similar adaptations to the environment, common adaptation cannot be discounted.

Gene flow appears likely between the Egyptians and Nubians, although common adaptations to a similar environment may have also been a factor in their cranial similarities. This study does not rule out the possibility that in situ biological evolution occurred at other times not represented by the samples in this analysis. "

-- Godde K. (2009) An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development? Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404.


As you can see such an argument is futile.


Egyptian Army


Nubian mercenaries

flow than the migration from south to north...." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
/pmc/articles/PMC1377841/


This study was included in the 2009 Goode study and actually supports the fact that both populations were genetically identical. Again it's best not to quote studies from people with named "Racial Reality" or "Mathilda" who have clear agendas and who refuse to debate people outside of their own blogs and forums (due to the fact that they cannot ban opposing views when they debunk their lies).

Mainstream research - of course, Ehret,  Boyce and Keita - what about other research? The studies I posted here are real ones too, not dirt on the road,


You are very correct. Unfortunately you are allowing an unqualified individual with a racial agenda (hence not objective) to interpret those studies for you. Those individuals take a typological approach to interpreting selective studies, which should not be dealt with in such a manner. Do you seriously believe that the authors of those studies are insinuating that the ancient Egyptians and Nubians were more akin to French and English men than other Northeast African populations? In fact Keita has explained why such findings do occur:

"What would account for this range of resemblances- infraspecific convergence, parallelism, admixture, chance or all of these? It is perhaps best to consider these findings as reflective primarily of an indigenous northeast African biological evolutionary history and diversity. Hiernaux (1975) reports that the range of values in selected metric units from populations in the northeast quadrant of Africa collectively largely overlaps the range found in the world. Given that this region may be the place from which modern humans left Africa, its people may have retained an overall more generalized craniometric pattern whose individual variants for selected variables may resemble a range of centroid values for non-African population values."-- S.O.Y. Keita, "On Meriotic Nubian Crania Fordisc 2.0, and Human Biological History."
Current Anthropology Volume 48, Number 3, June 2007


Doesn't this make more sense then what Racial Reality and Mathilda are dishonestly trying to assert? Remember these are the words of an individual who is regarded as an authority on African biology.

Anyway, when I am presented with studies that cover wide compass and show several different affinities I'm going to trust all of those studies and come up with supposition that fits the facts, not the other way around.


No have presented selective biological studies and the racially biased opinions of unqualified individuals. I have presented anthropological, genetic, linguistic and cultural evidence from numerous and authoritative scholars all stating that ancient Egypt's origins and closest bio-cultural affinities are with more southerly African populations. In the studies that you present from Racial Reality's website, notice that they lack quotes from the actual authors stating that the ancient Egyptians were of European origin. Just listen to absurd and colonial minded that assertion is.



Edited by MKGlouisville - 21-Nov-2011 at 15:49
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  Quote MKGlouisville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2011 at 15:56
Originally posted by Don Quixote

While I don't doubt that populations whom would generally be referred to 'Caucasian' would become present in Late Dynastic Egypt (due to invasions and migration), to say that the ancient Egyptian depicted themselves as "white" is simply not true. 

peoples
From the Tomb of Seti I - Syrian, Nubian, Lybian and Egyptian - the Egyptian and the Nubian are obviously don't share the same representation - so the Egyptians didn't see themselves as black either. This seems as mixed to me as mixed can be; and such mixing doesn't happen overnight.[/QUOTE]

Or how about this comparison:






How difficult is it for you to see that the phenotype of the Northeast African man above is what the ancient Egyptians generally looked like. As you should already know Tropical Africa has the most indigenous physical diversity on Earth. The Nubians on the mural are the Dinka Nubians. The Dinka are the darkest people on Earth, darker than Yoruba, Zulu, Fulani, Somalis  ect.



Edited by MKGlouisville - 21-Nov-2011 at 15:57
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  Quote MKGlouisville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2011 at 16:02
Originally posted by Don Quixote

"...Caucasoids have simple mass-reduced teeth, and Negroids have complex mass-additive teeth. Prehistoric peoples also have the latter, and the evidence you posted has actually been used to argue against Negroid affinities in early Nubians:..."http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/3973609/1/
And the studies this guy used are here:http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2010/01/mesolithic-nubians-probably-werent.html
The studies linked there are worth reading, easily accessible on the net for everyone to use, only a click away.
I hope you are satisfied.


Again dude look at the source of all of your biological evidence and arguments. As I've already stated in my last reply, "Racial Reality" has a clear agenda and is not an objective individual in his interpretations of different studies, let alone an actual scholar. As I've stated I'm not interested in what racial reality has to argue, as I am not arguing him and likely never will (because he refuses to defend his views on neutral grounds). If you on the other hand which to give your own interpretations of those studies and from their debate their meanings then I will be more than happy to do so.
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  Quote MKGlouisville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2011 at 16:04
Originally posted by Ancient Dravidian

I think these pictures look very authentic. It's a clear testimony for the Egyptian appearance. No doubt they were a very homogenic black people. In those times mass migration like in modern times was not possible. This is just another final fantasy of Ariosophists. I commend your dedication in this thread.


Thank you for compliments!
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2011 at 17:07
Originally posted by MKGlouisville

Originally posted by Don Quixote

"...Caucasoids have simple mass-reduced teeth, and Negroids have complex mass-additive teeth. Prehistoric peoples also have the latter, and the evidence you posted has actually been used to argue against Negroid affinities in early Nubians:..."http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/3973609/1/
And the studies this guy used are here:http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2010/01/mesolithic-nubians-probably-werent.html
The studies linked there are worth reading, easily accessible on the net for everyone to use, only a click away.
I hope you are satisfied.


Again dude look at the source of all of your biological evidence and arguments. As I've already stated in my last reply, "Racial Reality" has a clear agenda and is not an objective individual in his interpretations of different studies, let alone an actual scholar. As I've stated I'm not interested in what racial reality has to argue, as I am not arguing him and likely never will (because he refuses to defend his views on neutral grounds). If you on the other hand which to give your own interpretations of those studies and from their debate their meanings then I will be more than happy to do so.
I've just had a look at what Racial Reality has to say for themselves, which is as follows:
This website is a compendium of genetic studies, anthropological surveys, historical perspectives and photo series addressing various topics related to racial origins, affinities and myths. Its primary aim is to counter the proliferation of pseudo-scholarship coming from Nordicists (White Nationalists), Afrocentrists, Multi-Racialists and Race-Deniers. The accumulated materials are intended only to correct misinformation, not to denigrate any group or advance a political agenda. The author holds no special credentials in any of the fields mentioned.
http://racialreality.110mb.com/ 

What agenda exactly were you referring to, MKGlouisville, that you imagine is so clear, when referring to Racial Reality?Shift+R improves the quality of this image. Shift+A improves the quality of all images on this page.


Edited by TheAlaniDragonRising - 21-Nov-2011 at 17:10
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2011 at 17:15
Originally posted by MKGlouisville

 





Aren't these examples of the art you previously stated as discredited? 


Edited by TheAlaniDragonRising - 21-Nov-2011 at 22:16
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2011 at 17:30
Originally posted by MKGlouisville



undefined


MKGlouisville, you've stated how afro-asiatic probably had its origin in Ethiopia, so can you tell us where about geographically the picture you supplied says it was? Shift+R improves the quality of this image. Shift+A improves the quality of all images on this page.
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2011 at 17:39
This is a general problem, even this problem is a name of page in viki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy

one of the old theory is turanic race theory
"From the colour given to the women in their paintings we learn that their skin was yellow, like that of the Mongul Tartars, who have given their name to the Mongolian variety of the human race…The single lock of hair on the young nobles reminds us also of the Tartars" (same source)



Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2011 at 18:06
In picture that,MK has posted,we could see all colors that had lived on Egypt&Earth.People,black,yellow, white and red that i suppose were,white or with different colors,cause color was religious sign only.There is no other proof till now,but language i am working with.Hope DNA will prove my claims here.Red color people could have been also American Indians that had transported coca in Egypt from Columbia if they had passed over ocean!MK where did white people come from than!?!Were they DNA experiment of aliens or similar?


Edited by medenaywe - 21-Nov-2011 at 18:22
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2011 at 18:26
Originally posted by medenaywe

In picture that,MK has posted,we could see all colors that had lived on Egypt&Earth.People,black,yellow, white and red that i suppose were,white or with different colors,cause color was religious sign only.There is no other proof till now,but language i am working with.Hope DNA will prove my claims here.Red color people could have been also American Indians that had transported coca in Egypt from Columbia if they had passed over ocean!MK where did white people come from than!?!Are they DNA experiment of aliens or similar?
What I've seen suggests pigmentation to white skin happened a long time ago.
The evolution of dark skin is linked intrinsically to the loss of body hair in humans. By 1.2 million years ago, all people having descendants today had the same receptor protein of today's Africans; their skin was dark, and the intense sun lowered the chance of survival of those with lighter skin that resulted from mutational variation in the receptor protein.[6] This is significantly earlier than the speciation ofHomo sapiens from Homo erectus some 250,000 years ago.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people#Dark_skin
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2011 at 18:29
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Originally posted by red clay

Your not doing so hot yourself bub. It's refrained, not reframed and take should be plural.  And you should take your own advice about hurling insults.
In your opinion, red clay, do you believe it is better grammar to say, "I generally don't insult a person's grammar, but your post take the cake!", instead of, "I generally don't insult a persons grammar, but your post take the cake!"?Shift+R improves the quality of this image. Shift+A improves the quality of all images on this page.
 
 
Proper structure is "Post takes the cake"  I also found the same error in the line above, he used post instead of Posts.
 
There are snobbie pretentious forums where improper grammar is a suspendable offense, This is for sure not one of them. Big smile  And that's a good thing, I'd be busy as hell suspending folks.
 
MKG- The Mediterranean basin was a melting pot. They did not pay much attention to skin color and neither should you.
 
 
 
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