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Topic ClosedPlato, Plotinus, Plethon, etc.

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Plato, Plotinus, Plethon, etc.
    Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 10:09
Entertain the idea that Plato, is merely an invention created from the lives of the following personages?
But, first let us look at what we know about Plato?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato

"Plato (English pronunciation: /ˈpleɪtoʊ/; Greek: Πλάτων, Plátōn, "broad"[2]; 428/427 BC[a] – 348/347 BC), was a Classical Greek philosopher, mathematician, writer of philosophical dialogues, and founder of the Academy in Athens, the first institution of higher learning in the Western world. Along with his mentor, Socrates, and his student, Aristotle, Plato helped to lay the foundations of Western philosophy and science.[3] Plato was originally a student of Socrates, and was as much influenced by his thinking as by his apparently unjust execution.

Plato's sophistication as a writer is evident in his Socratic dialogues; thirty-six dialogues and thirteen letters have been ascribed to him. Plato's writings have been published in several fashions; this has led to several conventions regarding the naming and referencing of Plato's texts.

Plato's dialogues have been used to teach a range of subjects, including philosophy, logic, rhetoric and mathematics."

Please note all of the information now available on Plato and compare it to the two look alikes below? Note his dating and his connection to Socrates?

Then look at Plotinus? Note "Ploti" and "Plato", and how only the vowels have changed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plotinus (note you must actually read this)

"Plotinus (Greek: Πλωτῖνος) (ca. AD 204/5–270) was a major philosopher of the ancient world who is widely considered the founder of Neoplatonism (along with his teacher Ammonius Saccas). Neoplatonism was an influential philosophy in Late Antiquity. Much of our biographical information about Plotinus comes from Porphyry's preface to his edition of Plotinus' Enneads. His metaphysical writings have inspired centuries of Pagan, Christian, Jewish, Islamic and Gnostic metaphysicians and mystics."

Note from the above that very little is known about this suject! And pay attention to his teacher who is named "Ammonius SACCAS!" Note the more than passing resemblance of SACCAS to SOCRATES! Note that the name AMMON-ius, can mean either "teacher" or "secret / 'the hidden one'!", which might well be a clue to his names? In its Germanic form which is "ANNO", it reportedly means "eagle ruler!"

In Immanuel Velikovsky's book, entitled "Peoples of the Sea", is a mention of Alexander the Great's visit to "the Oracle of Amon in the Oasis" (at Siwa)! Here it is reported by long dead historians, that Alexander was declared or "pronounced a son of Amon (Zeus) and the incarnation of the god himself."

Plato, Ploti! Again merely vowel substitution.

You must know that I suspect the writers of the past, the historians, etc., were very fond of "word play!"

Now compare the following personage, who might well have existed much closer to our times, with the above persons?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemistus_Pletho (again read it all!)

"Georgius Gemistus (Greek: Γεώργιος Πλήθων Γεμιστός; ca. 1355–1452/1454) — later called Plethon or Pletho — was a Greek scholar of Neoplatonic philosophy. He was one of the chief pioneers of the revival of Greek learning in Western Europe. In the dying years of the Byzantine Empire, he advocated a return to the Olympian gods of the ancient world.[1]

He re-introduced Plato's thoughts to Western Europe during the 1438 - 1439 Council of Florence, a failed attempt to reconcile the East-West schism. Here Pletho met and influenced Cosimo de' Medici to found a new Platonic Academy, which, under Marsilio Ficino, would proceed to translate into Latin all Plato's works, the Enneads of Plotinus, and various other Neoplatonist works."

Notice the reported dates of his life, 1355 to possibly 1454 CE! Plato reported life is said to be from 428 BCE to 347 BCE at the most! Thus Plato lived approximately 61 years and Plethon approximately? 59 years! Since the lifetime of both of these personages is mostly conjectural, then one can say that the life span was almost exact for both! Again PLeT, and PLaT, vowel substitution!

The period of time that our consensual history seperates the two personages is thus approximately 1,900 years! Since the dates of both of these men is some what conjectural, it can be mentioned that the Fomenko Group, has a time setback of over 1,810 years! And thus is close enough to compare the times with each other since according to consensual history approximately 1,900 years of history seperates the two! Adding 1,810 years to the alleged dating of the death of Plato, I.e. -347BCE, gives us the date of 1463 CE, and the reported death of Plethon as 1454 CE, thus a nine year discrepancy!

Even the date of the death of Plethon is connected with history, it was just one year after the fall of Constantinople (1453 CE) and the flood refugee Romans (as they called themselves) that headed towards the West in response!

You might well have noticed that in Greek, the name Plato is "Greek: Πλάτων, Plátōn, 'broad'", which is again suspiciously close to
Plet(h)on! And as you also understand in a lot of languages, the "h" is silent or not vocalized!

See "broad" in its Latin forms here;
http://latindictionary.wikidot.com/adjective:latus

Now why did I mention the fall of Constantinople in 1453? Well the attack was led by the Sultan Mehmed II(Mehammed II), who later was called "The Conqueror!" "the Conqueror" could easily becompared to "the Great!", as in Alexander the Great!

It is interesting to also note here that Alexander is said by some, to mean "Defender of Man" or some similar version, and that Mohammed / Mehammed, etc., in either personaged, could be well or often called "the Defender of the Faith!"

It needs to be mentioned that Mehmed II was based in the Ottoman controlled city called Adrianople (Hadrianople) which is located to the North of Constantinople, towards the area once controlled by Macedonia! The Ottomans had their royal European base there!

Note a lot of the following material is taken and paraphrased from the book "The Ottoman Centuries", written by Lord Kinross!

Mehmed II "the Conqueror" even attacked Greece, and stormed the Hexamillion, which was built and reportedly rebuilt by those in control of Greece for centuries, and protected the narrow Isthmus of Corinth, and "ravaged the country beyond it!"

Strangely enough there arose a powerful man in Albania, by the name of George Kastriota, who had once been "educated as a hostage at the Sultan's court, been converted to Islam, and served in the Ottoman army." It can be considered that the Ottoman Court, that he was kept hostage and served in, was Adrianople! "Here" (in Adrianople / Adrianopolis and in the Ottoman Army?) "he received the name of Iskender Beg, or Lord Alexander, which caused him to be known as Skanderbeg."

After "Lord Alexander" had been defeated on the battle field by Murad (the father of Mehmed) he, "..from his impregnable fortress of Croia, held out by effective guerrila warfare against all atempts at conquest, to the humiliation of Murad in his declining years, and under Mehmed for twenty years to come."

Now here is what Wikipedia has to say about the early life of Plethon;

"George Gemistos was born some time after 1355, probably in Constantinople.[2] As a young man he went to study at Adrianopolis, by now the Turkish capital following its capture by the Ottoman Sultan Murad I in 1365. Adrianopolis was now a centre of learning modelled by Murat on the caliphates of Cairo and Baghdad.[2] Here he began to study Plato, and admired the philosopher so much that late in life he took the similar-meaning name Plethon.[3] In c1407 Gemistos left Adrianopolis and travelled through Cyprus, Palestine and other places,[2] finally settling in Mistra,[4] in the Despotate of Morea."

You now know that Adrianople / Adrianopolis had been under the control of the Ottomans since Plethon was but about age ten (10)!, where he is said to have "began to study Plato!" And there exists no reason for us not to expect that he might well have had some contact with "Iskander" the "Bicorn", at Adrianopolis/Adrianople! Perhaps he had even been a teacher of "Lord Alexander?", who might well have been called "the Great?"

You can read about Mehmed II, (the Conqueror) here, and you should read it all!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmed_II

Plethon might also have had the opportunity to teach Mehmed (the Conqueror)also?

Notice that Plethon was said to have "settled" or maybe exciled to "the Despotate of Morea" after "c1407"! Please note the following from Wikipedia; "After the Fall of Constantinople, Mehmed would also go on to conquer the Despotate of Morea in the Peloponnese in 1460, and the Empire of Trebizond in northeastern Anatolia in 1461." Thus Mehmed and Plethon were not to see each other from possible ca. 1406 onward!

Perhaps you should also read about;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_II_Palaiologos As well as;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Scholarius

While I could write a great deal more about this possibility, perhaps, if you actually study the above account of mine, as well as read all of the material at the sites listed,then you can make your own decision?

Or perhaps you can read the A. T. Fomenko book, entitled "History: Fiction or Science, Cronology II", where you can find numerous other connections?

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 18-Nov-2010 at 10:58
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 15:59
If can actually take it, then you might well consider that the Fomenko Group (FG) also compares other items from the now consensually considered 4th and 5th century BCE eras, with the consensually agreed upon history of the 13th and 14th century CE, that need to be read.

To make a long story short, the Western Europeans who settled in Greece and surrounding areas after the fall of Constantinople to the 4th Crusade, becomes the land of the Ancient Spartans and Athenians! Persia becomes for the most part, mainly Ottomania, or the Othman Empire, or as we call them today "the Turks!"

So, for the "do it your self'ers, just use the 1,778 or 1,800 or 1,810 year Fomenko Group setback or set-forward, and compare things like the emergence of Lysander with the emergence of Nerio Acciaiuoli, and his Greece and his Athens? Nerio fought mostly against the Catalans in Greece before his prior ally, The Ottomans, become his enemy! Like wise, Lysander wins the battle against the Athenians, and deports them, but he ended up fighting against his former ally, Persia!

You might well note that the Fomenko Group (FG) has actually found out that during the middle ages, the Turks were sometimes identified with the Persians!

Thus one example from the FG, "The Peloponnesian War began in 431 B.C.; it raged for 27 years!" But there was a famous medieval war in Greece that is sometimes dated as "1374 CE to 1387 CE!

So,go ahead and add 1,810 years to 431 BCE! Go right ahead, don't be shy!

It seems that 401-BCE, the beginning of the Peloponnesian war, plus 1,810 years becomes 1379 CE and the end of the war is said to be 411 BCE, which when moved forward 1,810 years, becomes 1406 CE! And, in todays consensually approved history, the dates of the medieval war (being considered as only of 13 years duration) in Greece was 1374 CE to 1387 CE! So, just let me place the actual dates +1810 yrs,1379 CE, and the end of the ancinet war being 27 years, we come out with 1406 CE! In other words, the two events match almost to the exact year!

Is this a mere co-incidence? Are the dates of Plato and Plethon coincience?, and are the dates of Lysander and Nerio co-incidence?

I'll let you be the judge, but there remains a lot of other connections that I have not mentioned!

Regards

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2010 at 12:12
Yes like the Mongols and the Huns are actually Russians.
 
 
And that Chinese history didn't actually happen.
 
I'm sorry but he needs to stick to math because archaeology pretty much proves him wrong.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2010 at 17:40
P,c,ma!

Did you even read my two posts above? If so, did you follow the links and the theory?

If you actually did, and make the statement you made above then it is obvious that you missed the "obvious!"

Archaeology means little in the above! If someone, an archaeologist, is looking for some mention or some artefact supposedly living in the era of 600 CE, and finds some indication, or multiple indications of that subject, then he will identify it with c600CE! It is very simple since the dating of the subject(s) is already "known" to the observer/ researcher!

But, just why is it "known?" Upon what real facts is the "subject" proven to have lived at a certain period of time?

Upon who's words do we identify the period of the life of Lysander? Did he leave dated inscriptions in stone? Did someone, in the last 300 years find untouched documents written in the style of Lysander and present them to the world? If any of his original documents were ever found, where are they now? It is all mostly supposition, ancedotes, etc.!

So please explain to me why the setbacks of Fomenko, during certain periods of the past, work so well? These setbacks are 1778, 1800, and 1810 years!

Just why do they work so well? Is it accidental! Is it magic????? Is it pure math????

No! Or in French non! It is merely "common sense!"

Just something to think about!
Of course I could be wrong?
Regards,
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2010 at 17:53
Originally posted by p,c,ma

Yes like the Mongols and the Huns are actually Russians.
 

 

And that Chinese history didn't actually happen.

 

I'm sorry but he needs to stick to math because archaeology pretty much proves him wrong.


Your post above shows a very bad understanding of Fomenko!
Concerning the "Huns", our very recent history makes it clear that to most of Western Europe the "Huns" were Germans! The were also called Krauts, Le Bosche, etc.!

Certainly there is Chinese history! There is no doubt! But is it dated properly, or is it based upon a lot of false assumptions, some actually conceived in Rome, etc.?

But, Chin has history, a lot of it!
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2010 at 16:44
And what about carbon dating(by the way ope I saw your other post first).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2010 at 16:48

By the way as the Chinese were so much more advanced then the west wouldn't they have rewrote our history.

 
Also if it was changed in Rome how come it matches their accounts in the East.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2010 at 19:48
Chinese advancement over the West is but a product of wongful placement of their past! 14 Carbon dating is connected to our currently accepted history for the most part!

Just read most everything I have posted in the Alternate History section and you will get most of how I feel about things historical.

By the way, just how do you feel about my Plato discourse above? Does it not make sense?

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 22-Nov-2010 at 19:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 21:45
By your theory yes, and the idea should continue to be looked at.
 
But it still has way to many holes in it.
 
There are truly massive amounts of questions that are being left (in point I have not read Fomenko's book though it would be interesting).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 22:28
p,c, ma, wrote in very bad English;

"There are truly massive amounts of questions that are being left (in point I have not read Fomenko's book though it would be interesting)."

So, please work upon your usage of English! Since I am also a product of a Tennessee education, I find no reason for you to be lacking in such!


Next, if you have read nothing of Fomenko's works then you have little right to be found lacking in your responses!

Read them, and weep!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 23:22
I will ftom now on cease to be interesting, and only write in perfect English. Thus making it more difficult to get my points across.
 
P.S. You are the only person who has read this book.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2010 at 00:22
To the little "flip" from Tennesse who wrote the following;

"P.S. You are the only person who has read this book."

You should go back to walking up and down the valleys hunting for "racoons!" And please take your "Blue tick hound" with you!

Obviously the mother of A. T. Fomenko or at least his mother's cousins read the book!

And if you think that writing in sub-standard English makes you look more attractive to the opposite sex, then you will be lacking in good sex for sure!

Wake up kid!

Edited by opuslola - 24-Nov-2010 at 00:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2010 at 14:41
Ha ha ha thats mean.
 
I am curious though, you like his theory so much but nothing I have read on him shows that any of his ideas are being picked up by other scholars.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2010 at 16:13
Yes Hunter, for most dedicated historians, etc., to show open support for Fomenko would be a death sentence! So would attributing the Pyramids, etc., to the acts of Space Aliens!

Now what they feel about parts of the works of Fomenko in their hearts is hard to say? Perhaps some of them secretly have reservations about certain parts of the currently accepted scheme? Who knows?

But if the Fomenko scheme is ever accepted, even a small part of it, it would create a revolution in the field! Just imagine all of the history and history related books printed since they were first printed would be a worthless as last years telephone directory! Think of the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of doctoral thesus (thesi?) that suddenly become fantasy!

Certainly some of these people might even entertain suicide?

That seems to be the "nature of the beast" that is Fomeko's theory!

Regards,
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2010 at 19:40
True.
 
(And it would be fun to see the look on a historians' face.)
 


Edited by p,c,ma - 24-Nov-2010 at 19:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2010 at 10:56
Dear Hunter,

It might really be sad to see them?

After all, their lifetime of study, their books, etc., whould suddenly not be worth the paper they were printed upon, their TV interviews could be shown for comedic effect, etc.! Their lives and egos would be destroyed!

There exist plenty of such here on this site, and not one of them has yet to explain to me, why my connections, such as the Plato to Plethon one, are incorrect, or can be proven wrong! Especially since Fomenko has made numerous other like connections between BCE events and CE events, that all follow the same series of setbacks!

But, we are here upon dangerous ground, and should hold conversations such as this in private messages, if at all!

Regards,
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2011 at 21:46
My dear "p,c,ma", oh where, oh where have ye gone?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2011 at 17:16
I'm here as always.
 
For some reason I haven't been recieving e-mail notifications, and thus just got this post.
 
I though do not see the reason that something should be held in a private chat, as it defeats the purpose of a forum.
 
Again forgive me for the delay.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2011 at 19:23
I do not receive them anymore also, so I merely saved an old post in my favorites area!

But, my comments concerning "private chat" was mostly for laughs, since we would be conversing about something that is basically verboten on this site!

That is the reason that I mostly post in the "Alternative History" section, to avoid a "ban!" After all challenging the currently accepted dating schemes is not something that sane people do, especially in mixed company!

Glad to have you back!

Looks like UT, is coming back, UK is failing, Vandy is doing better than expected, and UM (Memphis) is floundering!

How is your team doing?

Regards,
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2011 at 20:06
I root for the patriots in the NFL and they just let me down.
 
As for college football I sadly haven't kept up.
 
And I've actually been meaning to go back and look at the allternative history forum. If nothing else its fun to think about.
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