USSR or USA?Which one do you favor most?

I would say that the USSR has little or nothing to offer, but the culture of the Russian people, the Georgian and many others in the former Soviet empire do indeed offer much.  I appreciate their cultures and rich histories.  I do not, however, see much that the political structure that I would find admirable or easily adaptable to a non oppressive regime.  We sometimes consider culture and politics to be similar beasts, but in fact, especially in non democratic states, this is not necessarily true or even reflective of the desire of the people from whom culture is reflective.

Edited by Baldar

I chose the US for what it represents, but I can still appreciate Russian history and culture which is worthy of note and mention, they brought us Peter the Great, who was a great man by almost any standard.

 

I wonder how great Russia could become if its culture and people are given full freedom to find their own destiny

 

U.S. all the way

Now, to those people who think American culture is just coca-cola and McDonald's: Get a brain! America can be credited with Emerson, Poe, Melville, Hemingway, Cooper, Twain, James, Kerouac, and a series of other writers who gave us fantastic ouevres. Let's not forget Terry and The Pirates, Thimble Theatre, The Phantom, Mandrake, and of course, The Peanuts. Great ouevres themselves

And then there's Rock n' Roll, you squares.

For those who think that Americana is limited to fast food - Get an education! You're showing as much arrogance as you accuse the Americans of possessing. You snobs! 

As for history. America does have a long history. For the Anglos, it starts in 1609 (methinks). for the natives, it starts sooner.

Originally posted by Baldar I wonder how great Russia could become if its culture and people are given full freedom to find their own destiny

Russian tradition in majority doesn't know the idea of freedom. Its culture was not a result of free will of people as it was in the West. For ages there have been two political ideas: some people were supporting Russian itegration with the West (occidentalism)  but some wanted to avoid it and built their country on the base of terror, fear and starvation.

To the first cathegory belong such people as Peter the Great, Czaadajew, Aleksander Herzen, whereas to the second - Ivan the Horrible, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin. Unfortunetely, the second idea had the bigger influence on the politic of Russia. Murder of Catherine the Great and Pavel I, three partitions of Poland, massacre of citizens of Praga and Oszmiana, terror of Revolution, Katyn Forest Massacre, years of communism - there are also "achievements" of Russia.

Finally, I'd like to claim that I have no prejudice against Russian people. But I would like to point out that the system created both by tzars and communists had a lot of disadvantages because it didn't know the idea of liberty and was doing everything to infrindge the freedom of people from Russia and from neighbouring countries.

And in summary, two quotations to show problem of freedom:

While the State exists, there can be no freedom. When there is freedom there will be no State. /Lenin

 

Everything that is really great and inspiring is created by the individual who can labor in freedom. /Albert Einstein

For me , every Russian achievements which were results of forcing people to  work hard aren't "great and inspiring"...

Originally posted by megabomber Social justice... in USSR...  better living conditions - yes, everybody had a chance to liberate from starvation and go to Heaven...

Had religion been approved by the high Soviet that is....

 

 

Originally posted by Cornellia Mosquito, I chose the US because I truly believe that its freedoms allows us more opportunities to succeed. When I said "Which is not to say that the USSR doesn't have their good points, now or in the past."  I meant that I chose the US but not at the expense of the USSR or any other country.

Dear Cornelia. Im not ciritcising personally you but i used your post to criticise all those who today claim that overall USSR was not that bad, especially compared to nowadays USA.

I would say that the USSR has little or nothing to offer, but the culture of the Russian people, the Georgian and many others in the former Soviet empire do indeed offer much.

So you can see it much better than i do. For hundrieds years of neighbourhood most of people from my country didnt find anything what Russian culture could have offer to us. Frankly speaking they are a bunch of barbarians in the roman garden.

On the other hand, it is true that the USSR had better living conditions for the poor, and better social justice.

this sentence especially made me laugh. I think you can still go to Belarus, because they still have kolhoses (state owned farms where the paesants are nothing more but workers) which are working. I have read that this year the police orchestra's were assisting those "state owned farmers" (who are kind of medieval serfs or even slaves). After harvests those poor guys were thanking goverment for that musical support and claimed that harvest were much better than before (they affcourse were also thanking policemen who were playing for them). The life conditions of those people didnt change at all since the USSR times so you Beylerbeyi have a real chance to test it. Just go there and ask for job.

And socials justice for you seems to mean that it is cool when everybody is poor like in 3rd world country except for Communist Party members who live on the expence of the rest. Claiming that central/eastern european countires were richer when they were communist than now is just an idiotism.

As far as Belarus goes, my teacher said it is an authoritarian regime going on in there.

As far as the social security/aid goes, i was walking with my father in the city one day and he saw some anti-socials walking past us. My father mentioned it to me and also said, that during the Soviet reign you couldn't witness such a thing. The unemployed would be offered some kind of jobs and residences. Or maybe it was just a TABU thing to show existance of this class to the world and they were hidden away or hidden somewhere, who knows.

Degregado, i don't think rock 'n' roll is some sort of a cultural achievement.

Originally posted by Kalevipoeg As far as Belarus goes, my teacher said it is an authoritarian regime going on in there.

Aye, it's the last dictatorship of Europe.

Originally posted by Beylerbeyi US is unjust, but is more libertarian (less authoritarian), in general a more open and democratic political system. The problem is, the US is becoming even more unjust, and more authoritarian, as well as less democratic.

Please give me your evidence for this, or I'll think you're just spouting out the usual anti-american clich�s. 

 

 

- Edit; The solution is, of course, as I wrote before, to get rid of the imperialist superpowers. Some argue that 'someone will be the hegemon anyway, so you'd better enjoy it'. I think this line of thinking is cowardly, defeatist and small-minded. It is just like people in older eras saying 'someone has to be king, so let's accept this one'. Now we know democracy is possible...

  And just how are we supposed to go to space?

Originally posted by Beylerbeyi Racism eh? Who are you to decide who is a barbarian? How do you interpret the fact that you were actually burning witches 100 years after the Americans in Salem, while the French were revolting for democracy...

racism? no. But you are for sure ignorant. While the french were revolting polish parliament was voting first constitution in europe and second in the world (after american). And suddenly 100.000 russians came and murdered 10.000 people who were living in Praga, a disctrict of Warsaw. 

In 1990 the pro capita income of the Soviet Union with purchasing power parity was like 10000 USD. Which was like 3 times that of Turkey's. Russian Federation had 11000 USD pro capita income with PPP in 1990, today they have something like 8000- and that's because of record-high oil prices. The following countries were all richer in 1990 compared to today (14 years later);

virtual monay and virtual statistics. You can even claim that it was a million dollars pro capita a week. The problem was that the shelves in the shops were empty and there was nothing to buy.....for the monay which everyone had lol. Learn that it were official prices and everything what you really wanted to buy you had to look for on the black market - where prices were completelly different. The value of monay was none! purchasing power parity was like 0. LoL, now you made me laugh.

Surprisingly, Belarus is about as rich today as it used to be in 1990. As to allegations that it has a socialist economy, the CIA world factbook says that it has a mixed economy (with private banks and industries) which grows at 6% pro annum. Their pro capita income with PPP is 6000 USD, almost the same as Turkey's. That's hardly very poor.

Belorusian growth in other words are all the produckts and commodities which are being stolen by the belorusian state. You might not know it but belorussian custom services confiscates every year, completelly ilegally, claiming that it is kontrabanda or for 1 of 100000 other reasons things which are in transit via their territory and they are worth about 10% of their whole incomes and later they sell it in shops!

As to social injustice in the US, that the richest 1% of the Americans own 1/3 of the wealth of the USA. The top 5% already owns more than the remaining 95%... Although the USA is the richest country on the planet by far, the US Census Bureau data shows;  The number of Americans living in poverty jumped to 35.9 million last year, up by 1.3 million, while the number of those without health care insurance rose to 45 million from 43.6 million in 2002, the U.S. government said in a report Thursday. The percentage of the U.S. population living in poverty rose to 12.5 percent from 12.1 percent -- as the poverty rate among children jumped to its highest level in 10 years, the Census Bureau said in an annual report.

So what? you want everyone to have the same incomes or what? people are not equal and never will be  all equal. Some are richer, some are poorer. Some are more intelligent while some are stupid and for example think that USSR was cool.

Edited by Mosquito